Store wouldn't power on 10D

[yiannisp]

I went to the photo store to inquire about the 10D; did not think they had it in stock. Come to find out they had one in stock. I asked to try it out. They got it out (it was opened), they gave me just about every lense they had in the store and let me alone in a corner to "play" with it for almost an hour, without bothering me a bit. Guess what - I bought it. I could care less if it had a fingerprint or 1000 pictures or so on it. After a few days, it has tons of fingerpints and 10 times more shots on it. And you know what, I can still take it back and get a refund if it quits working. Instead, I ordered a bunch of lenses from that store, even though I could have gotten them online for cheaper.

Enough said ...

y.

The store has only one camera. It is a hard to get camera because
Canon can't make them fast enough. So, this store puts it out on
display (as you guys want) and 12 people come in just to play with
it, even though they know they can't afford it. Now, you, lucky
number 13, come in and want to buy it. But you notice that it has
2341 pictures already taken, and there appears to be fingerprints
on the camera. Now, you need to ask yourself, are you willing to
pay the $1499 for the camera still? I mean, it was YOU who would
only shop at a camera store that will let you play with it, and it
is YOU who want the camera store to put out the only one they have.

See, the problem is, the camera store would love to put one out so
potential customers can be hooked on the camera. And, if the store
had 14 in stock it probably would. But todays average customer is
so cheap with their money that they want everything, but don't
actually want to pay for it (gotta love customers).

So the store gets one camera in, customers demand to see it, the
store puts it on display, and then 4 customers later they get a
customer who wants to buy it, but for 10 percent off because it is
"used". So now the store has to take a 150 dollar hit on profit.

Next week, they get one more in. Customers want to come in and
play with it. The 7th customer wants to buy it, but only if the
store takes 10 percent off. Another 150 bucks down the drain.

Now, if the store had 14 in stock, they could put one out, let
customers demo it, and sell them a new one. And this way, when the
next model comes out from Canon, they only have to sell ONE camera
at 10 percent off, not all of them.

Do you get my point now?

Personally, if it was a limited stock item, I would make you buy
it, and give you a good return policy if you don't like it. Mainly
because I am confident you will enjoy the camera. That way I don't
have to eat the profit, and I also don't have to have 12 people
come in and mess with the camera even though they know they can't
afford it.

 

[Paul Grupp]

Yeah you're right -- that would be the thing to do -- but what happens if you decide you don't want it after opening up all the cute little baggies? Now the store has to close everything back up and pretend its new, because it is -- and then somebody like me comes along, opens it up, notices that it's been opened, and freaks out and thinks the worst of them. Or if they have the ethics of a saint, they have to sell it as "open box," which means they lose money on it.

It's a dilemna. I just buy from stores I trust -- if there's a problem, I know they'll take it back, no questions asked, and give me a new one.

All in all, I've had pretty good luck with photo gear all my life. Lots of water under the bridge, with no defects found -- not even the dread focusing issue on my 10D! I suppose I would feel different if I had been burned a couple of times. . .

Regards,
Paul

Why wait to get home to find out about those?

I guess you could buy the danged thing, open it up right there, and
test it, and THEN return it.

The problem is, there are two types of buyers out there, with
mutually incompatible hang-ups. One group of buyers refuses to even
think about buying something if they can't take it out of the box
and play with it before they make their mind up.

The other group refuses to buy something if there is the slightest
evidence that the box has been opened.

Personally, I don't understand why they don't have a demo unit on
the shelf, but if they don't, I think they are wise to not let you
open it -- if I shopped a store that let me play with "new"
merchandise, I have to admit -- I wouldn't shop there again.

--
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise

Where's the 'forum police' when you need them?
So many off-topic posts, yet they only complain about mine?
Nah, this couldn't be a personal vendetta.

 

[Paul Grupp]

This is something I completely fail to understand. What possible
difference can it make if someone's snapped a few pictures with it
in the store?

Well, there's two responses to that. First of all, if the box has been opened, we don't know if it was to snap a couple pictures in the store, or if was bought by a wedding photographer who used it for a month, snapped off a few thousand frames, and then decided it wasn't for him and returned it. You just don't know.

Second, here in the US, there are laws that very specifically detail whether you can sell something as new, or used. If the retailer is trying to follow the letter of the law, and he has a bunch of merchandise that has been opened, but he is selling as new, it can be a problem.

The rules are different if you are buying used gear -- as you mentioned. But do a search on "open box" here and read some of the whining from people who have bought what they thought was new, and got something else. And can you blame them? For some people, a new camera is a very big deal -- they want the experience to be perfect. . .

Regards,
Paul

Personally, I don't understand why they don't have a demo unit on
the shelf, but if they don't, I think they are wise to not let you
open it -- if I shopped a store that let me play with "new"
merchandise, I have to admit -- I wouldn't shop there again.

This is something I completely fail to understand. What possible
difference can it make if someone's snapped a few pictures with it
in the store?

Personally, when buying used lenses, I look for the trashy-looking
ones, even with minor damage to the front element. One, they're
cheap, and two, they're certain to work -- as they've clearly
been used to take pictures.

A "mint" condition used lens is far more likely to be a duff copy
than a well-worn one anyway.

(And no, I wouldn't ask for a discount because the box has been
opened.)

Petteri
--
Portfolio: [ http://www.seittipaja.fi/index/ ]
Photo lessons: [ http://www.seittipaja.fi/lessons/ ]

 

[Paul Grupp]

Quite a few electronics stores are starting to charge restocking fees just because of the issue you mention. If it's defective, you can get it fixed, or sometimes replaced, but if you just don't like it, you'll pay a 10-15% restocking fee.

It would suck if it happened to you, but I think it's fair. An awful lot of people "rent" cameras for vacations, weddings, etc. -- and then return them when it's over. You either have to stop the renting, start charging higher prices to cover the losses, or palm off the used merchandise as new.

It all comes down to an intersection of customers wanting a deal, stores wanting to be competitive yet profitable, and a small number of consumers who work the system and really gum up the works.

Regards,
Paul

Cool.

I'll take one please.

Play with it for a week.

Return it because I "don't like it".

Will it be easier to resell that one (or harder?) than if you'd let
me use it in the store for a bit?

Personally, if it was a limited stock item, I would make you buy
it, and give you a good return policy if you don't like it. Mainly
because I am confident you will enjoy the camera. That way I don't
have to eat the profit, and I also don't have to have 12 people
come in and mess with the camera even though they know they can't
afford it.

--
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise

Where's the 'forum police' when you need them?
So many off-topic posts, yet they only complain about mine?
Nah, this couldn't be a personal vendetta.

 

[Paul Grupp]

We all want the best price, perfect product, and endless customer service. If everybody was honest and fair, that might be possible to achieve.

But in the real world, if you have all that, people are going to take advantage of you, and something is going to have to go. Either the price goes up to pay for that great customer service, or the customer service slips, or the product isn't always perfect any more. Take your choice -- can't have all three. Most places, anyway. There are some retailers that come darn close.

Regards,
Paul

The store has only one camera. It is a hard to get camera because
Canon can't make them fast enough. So, this store puts it out on
display (as you guys want) and 12 people come in just to play with
it, even though they know they can't afford it. Now, you, lucky
number 13, come in and want to buy it. But you notice that it has
2341 pictures already taken, and there appears to be fingerprints
on the camera. Now, you need to ask yourself, are you willing to
pay the $1499 for the camera still? I mean, it was YOU who would
only shop at a camera store that will let you play with it, and it
is YOU who want the camera store to put out the only one they have.

See, the problem is, the camera store would love to put one out so
potential customers can be hooked on the camera. And, if the store
had 14 in stock it probably would. But todays average customer is
so cheap with their money that they want everything, but don't
actually want to pay for it (gotta love customers).

So the store gets one camera in, customers demand to see it, the
store puts it on display, and then 4 customers later they get a
customer who wants to buy it, but for 10 percent off because it is
"used". So now the store has to take a 150 dollar hit on profit.

Next week, they get one more in. Customers want to come in and
play with it. The 7th customer wants to buy it, but only if the
store takes 10 percent off. Another 150 bucks down the drain.

Now, if the store had 14 in stock, they could put one out, let
customers demo it, and sell them a new one. And this way, when the
next model comes out from Canon, they only have to sell ONE camera
at 10 percent off, not all of them.

Do you get my point now?

Personally, if it was a limited stock item, I would make you buy
it, and give you a good return policy if you don't like it. Mainly
because I am confident you will enjoy the camera. That way I don't
have to eat the profit, and I also don't have to have 12 people
come in and mess with the camera even though they know they can't
afford it.

 

[Rich A]

Agree totally,

I have a local store in Salem that will pull it out of the box, mount a lens and let you try it out. I personally would buy it no other way. They have a spare battery charged so the battery and all of the rest of the paper work stays intact. Most people want to get the feel of the camera with a lens mounted on it as well as a look thru a lens or two. Because I bought the camera from them I went back and bought a 17-40, 70-200IS, 24-70L, 50mm1.4 and a 100mm macro last week. If the camera I bought had a few finger prints on it I would not have thought twice about it. If it was missing stuff that would be something different.

Rich

Enough said ...

y.

The store has only one camera. It is a hard to get camera because
Canon can't make them fast enough. So, this store puts it out on
display (as you guys want) and 12 people come in just to play with
it, even though they know they can't afford it. Now, you, lucky
number 13, come in and want to buy it. But you notice that it has
2341 pictures already taken, and there appears to be fingerprints
on the camera. Now, you need to ask yourself, are you willing to
pay the $1499 for the camera still? I mean, it was YOU who would
only shop at a camera store that will let you play with it, and it
is YOU who want the camera store to put out the only one they have.

See, the problem is, the camera store would love to put one out so
potential customers can be hooked on the camera. And, if the store
had 14 in stock it probably would. But todays average customer is
so cheap with their money that they want everything, but don't
actually want to pay for it (gotta love customers).

So the store gets one camera in, customers demand to see it, the
store puts it on display, and then 4 customers later they get a
customer who wants to buy it, but for 10 percent off because it is
"used". So now the store has to take a 150 dollar hit on profit.

Next week, they get one more in. Customers want to come in and
play with it. The 7th customer wants to buy it, but only if the
store takes 10 percent off. Another 150 bucks down the drain.

Now, if the store had 14 in stock, they could put one out, let
customers demo it, and sell them a new one. And this way, when the
next model comes out from Canon, they only have to sell ONE camera
at 10 percent off, not all of them.

Do you get my point now?

Personally, if it was a limited stock item, I would make you buy
it, and give you a good return policy if you don't like it. Mainly
because I am confident you will enjoy the camera. That way I don't
have to eat the profit, and I also don't have to have 12 people
come in and mess with the camera even though they know they can't
afford it.

--
Rich

 

[Sean Lowrey]

Isn't having an item in stock and to actually look at what buying locally is all about? To me yeah if there is a camera that they have and it's been touched and played with and has 500-1000 shots on it that they have to take off 10% because it's a display is part of doing business. Almost every single other niche market store has items to buy and on display. To me if they're not going to be willing to let me hold, touch and feel it, then they are more like a warehouse rather than retail.

Please lets not pretend that they're selling it at their cost and they're actually losing money on the camera. They make enough profit and can gain a good customer if they practice like normal businesses. Especially in this day and age with the economy so bad.

Hehe I'd probably just buy it then return it to prove a point. And then buy from B&H. (probably wouldn't go and do this but it'd serve them right)

--
Sean
http://www.mmsean.com
http://pbase.com/slowrey

 

[John Mankos]

Would you buy a brand new car without driving the EXACT car you are going to drive home?

I sure wouldn't

The store has only one camera. It is a hard to get camera because
Canon can't make them fast enough. So, this store puts it out on
display (as you guys want) and 12 people come in just to play with
it, even though they know they can't afford it. Now, you, lucky
number 13, come in and want to buy it. But you notice that it has
2341 pictures already taken, and there appears to be fingerprints
on the camera. Now, you need to ask yourself, are you willing to
pay the $1499 for the camera still? I mean, it was YOU who would
only shop at a camera store that will let you play with it, and it
is YOU who want the camera store to put out the only one they have.

See, the problem is, the camera store would love to put one out so
potential customers can be hooked on the camera. And, if the store
had 14 in stock it probably would. But todays average customer is
so cheap with their money that they want everything, but don't
actually want to pay for it (gotta love customers).

So the store gets one camera in, customers demand to see it, the
store puts it on display, and then 4 customers later they get a
customer who wants to buy it, but for 10 percent off because it is
"used". So now the store has to take a 150 dollar hit on profit.

Next week, they get one more in. Customers want to come in and
play with it. The 7th customer wants to buy it, but only if the
store takes 10 percent off. Another 150 bucks down the drain.

Now, if the store had 14 in stock, they could put one out, let
customers demo it, and sell them a new one. And this way, when the
next model comes out from Canon, they only have to sell ONE camera
at 10 percent off, not all of them.

Do you get my point now?

Personally, if it was a limited stock item, I would make you buy
it, and give you a good return policy if you don't like it. Mainly
because I am confident you will enjoy the camera. That way I don't
have to eat the profit, and I also don't have to have 12 people
come in and mess with the camera even though they know they can't
afford it.

--
John
http://www.mankman.com
Canon EOS 10D
Canon Powershot S30
Sony DSC-F707

Equipment list in profile...subject to change on a daily basis ;^)

Duct tape is like the Force. It has a light side, a dark side, and it holds the universe together

 

[Petteri Sulonen]

This is something I completely fail to understand. What possible
difference can it make if someone's snapped a few pictures with it
in the store?

Well, there's two responses to that. First of all, if the box has
been opened, we don't know if it was to snap a couple pictures in
the store, or if was bought by a wedding photographer who used it
for a month, snapped off a few thousand frames, and then decided it
wasn't for him and returned it. You just don't know.

If you can't tell the difference between a camera that has been handled slightly and one that has been used to shoot thousands of frames in RL situations... well.

In fact, that would be totally fraudulent action by the seller. If a seller is willing to sell a used camera as new, I don't think a factory seal is much of a protection. They're very easy to fake, you know. Someone willing to sell old as new would probably be willing to fake the seals as well. I know such things do happen: there are some very shady dealers around.

Imagine the following scenario: you buy a sealed package from your camera dealer. You take it home. You discover to your consternation that the camera shows clear signs of use. The seller will say "You saw it -- the box had never been opened. You probably snapped a couple of thousand pics with it and now want us to pick up the tab. Go away." Now how do you deal with it? Such a seller won't care at all about his reputation, and it will be impossible for you to demonstrate where the signs of use came from... and taking legal action would cost you tens or hundreds of times as much as the price of the camera anyway.

Second, here in the US, there are laws that very specifically
detail whether you can sell something as new, or used. If the
retailer is trying to follow the letter of the law, and he has a
bunch of merchandise that has been opened, but he is selling as
new, it can be a problem.

Really? Opening a box makes a new product "used?" I wasn't aware of that. Could you point me to a reference?

The rules are different if you are buying used gear -- as you
mentioned. But do a search on "open box" here and read some of the
whining from people who have bought what they thought was new, and
got something else. And can you blame them? For some people, a new
camera is a very big deal -- they want the experience to be
perfect. . .

...such as not having the camera power up when they switch it on, or having some other major malfunction.

I simply... don't understand this.

Then again, there are a lot of things I don't understand.

People who collect Leicas in shrink-wrapped boxes that they lock up in a vault and never even open.

People who never take the plastic off their car seats.

There's a name for this sort of behaviour. "Neurotic."

Petteri
--
Portfolio: [ http://www.seittipaja.fi/index/ ]
Photo lessons: [ http://www.seittipaja.fi/lessons/ ]

 

[Paul Grupp]

My, aren't we being argumentative! My point is simple -- if the box has been opened, the consumer has no idea of how much use has been put on the camera. Many consumers are displeased when they receive an open box -- displeased enough to complain to consumer protection agencies. I'm not arguing whether this is logical or correct behaviour -- it is a fact that this behaviour occurs. Reading through threads on this forum will bear that fact out.

In terms of the law, most retailers advertise that their merchandise is "new." A box that has obviously been opened previously is a strong indication to the contrary of that claim, for the reasons in the first paragraph above. In the US, the FTC and other agencies aggressively support the consumer if there is any suggestion of false advertising or misrepresentation. A prudent business would thus want to avoid any action or practice that could cause the FTC to intercede on the behalf of an irate customer.

Under the law, express warranties are created when a retailer (through its salespeople or literature) makes a statement of fact about the capabilities and qualities of a product or service. When consumers rely on these factual representations in purchasing the product or service and the statements then prove to be false, consumers are entitled to recover damages.

Paul

This is something I completely fail to understand. What possible
difference can it make if someone's snapped a few pictures with it
in the store?

Well, there's two responses to that. First of all, if the box has
been opened, we don't know if it was to snap a couple pictures in
the store, or if was bought by a wedding photographer who used it
for a month, snapped off a few thousand frames, and then decided it
wasn't for him and returned it. You just don't know.

If you can't tell the difference between a camera that has been
handled slightly and one that has been used to shoot thousands of
frames in RL situations... well.

In fact, that would be totally fraudulent action by the seller. If
a seller is willing to sell a used camera as new, I don't think a
factory seal is much of a protection. They're very easy to fake,
you know. Someone willing to sell old as new would probably be
willing to fake the seals as well. I know such things do happen:
there are some very shady dealers around.

Imagine the following scenario: you buy a sealed package from your
camera dealer. You take it home. You discover to your consternation
that the camera shows clear signs of use. The seller will say "You
saw it -- the box had never been opened. You probably snapped a
couple of thousand pics with it and now want us to pick up the tab.
Go away." Now how do you deal with it? Such a seller won't care
at all about his reputation, and it will be impossible for you to
demonstrate where the signs of use came from... and taking legal
action would cost you tens or hundreds of times as much as the
price of the camera anyway.

Second, here in the US, there are laws that very specifically
detail whether you can sell something as new, or used. If the
retailer is trying to follow the letter of the law, and he has a
bunch of merchandise that has been opened, but he is selling as
new, it can be a problem.

Really? Opening a box makes a new product "used?" I wasn't aware of
that. Could you point me to a reference?

The rules are different if you are buying used gear -- as you
mentioned. But do a search on "open box" here and read some of the
whining from people who have bought what they thought was new, and
got something else. And can you blame them? For some people, a new
camera is a very big deal -- they want the experience to be
perfect. . .

...such as not having the camera power up when they switch it on,
or having some other major malfunction.

I simply... don't understand this.

Then again, there are a lot of things I don't understand.

People who collect Leicas in shrink-wrapped boxes that they lock up
in a vault and never even open.

People who never take the plastic off their car seats.

There's a name for this sort of behaviour. "Neurotic."

Petteri
--
Portfolio: [ http://www.seittipaja.fi/index/ ]
Photo lessons: [ http://www.seittipaja.fi/lessons/ ]

 

[Petteri Sulonen]

My, aren't we being argumentative! My point is simple -- if the box
has been opened, the consumer has no idea of how much use has been
put on the camera. Many consumers are displeased when they receive
an open box -- displeased enough to complain to consumer protection
agencies. I'm not arguing whether this is logical or correct
behaviour -- it is a fact that this behaviour occurs. Reading
through threads on this forum will bear that fact out.

True enough that it occurs. I think it's just that it's irrational and counterproductive.

In terms of the law, most retailers advertise that their
merchandise is "new." A box that has obviously been opened
previously is a strong indication to the contrary of that claim,
for the reasons in the first paragraph above.

No, it isn't.

In the US, the FTC
and other agencies aggressively support the consumer if there is
any suggestion of false advertising or misrepresentation. A prudent
business would thus want to avoid any action or practice that could
cause the FTC to intercede on the behalf of an irate customer.

Under the law, express warranties are created when a retailer
(through its salespeople or literature) makes a statement of fact
about the capabilities and qualities of a product or service. When
consumers rely on these factual representations in purchasing the
product or service and the statements then prove to be false,
consumers are entitled to recover damages.

The point there is prove . A sealed package is pretty flimsy proof, especially as nowadays most factories don't even seal their packages. Canon doesn't. Minolta doesn't.

Petteri
--
Portfolio: [ http://www.seittipaja.fi/index/ ]
Photo lessons: [ http://www.seittipaja.fi/lessons/ ]