Stitching for a larger effective capture size.

Michael caught me off guard in my procrastination and since I promised him a contribution, which I happily do… Most of what I consider the positives of this method has been already said, so what else can I ad but some practical examples! I have to confess that I took all these shots for the matter of this thread in two hours. So please don't expect artistry and refinement, even if the processing was much more demanding in time.
Whoa! For someone with nothing ready to show, you've certainly come up with the goods! You must have spent quite some time stitching them all together, or else your computer is much faster than mine!
I used for this a new addition of the Fotodiox Vertex P645 for GFX with a Pentax adapter. The idea with it is to take a square image from the lens projection by rotating the camera four times in a vertex circle. Since I used the Sony version for years, I often take additional frames on either side or both, and even up or down, after panning or tilting the camera slightly.
An interesting approach that I doubt I would have thought of had you not mentioned it. I take it that you set up to pivot around the nodal point? It's interesting, surprising maybe, that the stitcher can manage the mixed projection.
This next shot is from the place where I spent way too much time memorising volatile information which didn't serve me and thus, evaporated as soon as I left definitively the school desks, while I didn't get that which would have served me well, for instance the mastery of English and why not, of the camera! 6 image were taken, for a file size of 163MP after cropping. Pentax 67 55mm /4, f19.

518cdeb0428b4078a8010582acd16257.jpg
This is my favourite image from among those that you posted here. I'm a sucker for monochrome and am not very skilled at seeing past my preference. f/19 is looking good, I need to remember to recalibrate my aperture choices when shooting larger.

It's interesting that I'm finding myself shooting wide open, or close to it, a lot, as I start this path. I guess the thinking is that this is the area where differences are more likely to show themselves. However, the images I'm enjoying most are shot far more closed down.
Do you see a difference in how an image looks, simply because it was produced on a larger capture area? I don't see the 8x10" quality that I have seen at first sight in Jones Hendershot's, Michael's guest, in that one, but certainly of some huge medium format. Perhaps 4x5" ? Of course, it is impossible to post full resolution samples. And by the way, what am I supposed to do now with that humongous 291MP picture ? :-(
I have to say at this stage that I don't, not in any of my images either. All good, if it was easy and obvious how to achieve such a thing, it would cease to be special.



alpshiker wrote: This is how the software deals with long cylindrical projections. The balcony was straight. But I welcome that touch of grace, do you?

8b43750696674b3aa181d512d3f8648b.jpg

724da987fdda4812b53b3fc671ae7625.jpg.png

It's certainly interesting. I wonder how the stitch would assemble if the whole thing was panned rather then the Vertex centre shifted then panned to expanded out to each side.

How are you finding the Vertex? Are you noticing any vignetting using your P67 lenses? Can you tell if any vignetting is from the lens itself or from the throat reduction as it passes through the P67>P645 adaptor?



Thanks for the input Paul. I hope you'll stick around, you have a lot to offer here I think.



Cheers!
 
Ever since I discovered Lois Connor's vertical 7"x17" banquet camera work, I've been interested in making long, skinny portrait pictures. I haven't done much about it yet (so it's currently a project for another day). But Michael's thread motivated me to explore it a bit further in the interest of documenting another use for flat stitching.

It's a bit of an edge case because you need some specialized gear, but versions of this are possible even with more conventional shift tools.

With lots of resolution available, we can easily make photos in unusual aspect ratios like vertical 7x17 simply by cropping. I don't like doing that because it means throwing away hard-won pixels. That matters a lot less with cameras like the GFX 100S than it used to, but I'm a bit stubborn about these things. Plus my camera is a 50R.

With enough shift room, we have another option. My Toyo VX23D can manage 70mm of front rise or rear fall. You need a lens with an image circle of around 120mm to use all that movement, and I have several: my Fujinon GX lenses, which were made for the GX680 system.

Here's a quick example from a trail near my house. The lens I used here is the Fujinon GX 125mm f/5.6. This is the full 70mm of shift, with the camera in landscape orientation to create the maximum number of pixels. Cropped to the 7x17 format, it's 7,934 x 19,269 pixels -- plenty for a large print.

A quick test of stitching together landscape images made over the full 70mm of rise/fall available on my Toyo.
A quick test of stitching together landscape images made over the full 70mm of rise/fall available on my Toyo.

There's actually more image circle available than I can use. The limitation is not the Toyo. There's more shift room available by moving both the lens and the camera. The hard limitation is the design of the GFX 50R.

These are the six source images. After setting up the lens and camera at 35mm on the standards (right in the middle of the shift range), I took the camera up to 70mm; rear rise is like front fall -- so the first image is the bottom. Notice the black bar at the top of the first image. I then dropped the camera to make the rest of the pictures; rear fall is like front rise, so we're going up as the sequence progresses. At the 0mm mark on the rear standard, where the camera is at the bottom now (last picture in the set), notice the black bar at the bottom of the picture. Those black bars are the part of the image that is blocked by the lip of the cavity in the body of the GFX camera that contains the sensor.

Source images for the 7x17 picture.
Source images for the 7x17 picture.

Fortunately, Lightroom simply ignores the black bar when stitching the images, which is why you don't see it in the finished picture.

Now this is all well and good if you shoot a scene like the one I used here, where my shooting position is in about the middle of the elevation of the scene. It works because the image circle is large enough to allow a 35mm rise and a 35mm fall on the rear standard (with the lens raised to 35mm); this is what's happening in the first diagram in this set.

The picture at the top of this post was made using the setup in the first diagram.
The picture at the top of this post was made using the setup in the first diagram.

Of course, this doesn't work if the ground is flat and the subject goes up. Think of a tree on flat ground. You want some ground and the whole tree. Setting up the camera as I did for the image at top would create a lot of unwanted foreground. What I'd want in this case is the second diagram. Instead of going up and down around the neutral position, I would want to go only up. Alas, this doesn't work with the camera in landscape orientation because there's not enough image circle. Additionally, the sensor cavity will block a lot of the final few images, which creates a risk of the stitch not working.

The solution for cases like this (or their reverse -- where all the interesting parts of the scene are down rather than up -- think standing at the rim of a gorge) is the third diagram. If I use portrait orientation, I have just enough image circle, and the sensor cavity blocking issue is manageable. I'm using the short edge of the GFX sensor in this case, but that's still a lot of information even on a GFX 50R.

If you read this far, you might be wondering, "Why not just shoot up and down as needed and stitch it all together?" Of course you can do that. But you really need to try it to see why it's not ideal. In a nutshell, composition is harder because you can't tell in camera how much of the imaged area will be usable, plus the shape of the object you're photographing will change as you point the camera up; think of what happens to a building when you point the camera up to get the whole building in the frame.

It's not that you can't work around these issues. I just prefer getting it all sorted at the front end -- with confidence that the composition is going to work.
 
With enough shift room, we have another option. My Toyo VX23D can manage 70mm of front rise or rear fall. You need a lens with an image circle of around 120mm to use all that movement, and I have several: my Fujinon GX lenses, which were made for the GX680 system.
Hoy cow. I am doing +/-7m shift. Anyone know how much Cambo allows? Assuming image circle is big to begin with.
 
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Whoa! For someone with nothing ready to show, you've certainly come up with the goods! You must have spent quite some time stitching them all together, or else your computer is much faster than mine!
The computer is not the problem (Mac Mini 2018, 64 GB of RAM, external SSD for scratch) and I won't charge you extra for my night hours. :-)
I used for this a new addition of the Fotodiox Vertex P645 for GFX with a Pentax adapter. The idea with it is to take a square image from the lens projection by rotating the camera four times in a vertex circle. Since I used the Sony version for years, I often take additional frames on either side or both, and even up or down, after panning or tilting the camera slightly.
An interesting approach that I doubt I would have thought of had you not mentioned it. I take it that you set up to pivot around the nodal point? It's interesting, surprising maybe, that the stitcher can manage the mixed projection.
Yes, in fact you have a central projection of the lens for the main, and the peripheral projection is incrementally extended this way. I only take the left frames when I pan left and usually with no less than 50% overlap and rather 70% when the subject is complex, and only the right frames when I pan on the right. Doing otherwise would at best produce strange distorted lines.
This next shot is from the place where I spent way too much time memorising volatile information which didn't serve me and thus, evaporated as soon as I left definitively the school desks, while I didn't get that which would have served me well, for instance the mastery of English and why not, of the camera! 6 image were taken, for a file size of 163MP after cropping. Pentax 67 55mm /4, f19.

518cdeb0428b4078a8010582acd16257.jpg
This is my favourite image from among those that you posted here. I'm a sucker for monochrome and am not very skilled at seeing past my preference. f/19 is looking good, I need to remember to recalibrate my aperture choices when shooting larger.
It is a bad habit kept from the large format camera time. Closing to f22 was normal to have sharp corners. This lens is still sharp at f16 and a half but I would probably have gotten away with f11 and half. I like monochrome too, but more done by others like you and other posters to this thread.
It's interesting that I'm finding myself shooting wide open, or close to it, a lot, as I start this path. I guess the thinking is that this is the area where differences are more likely to show themselves. However, the images I'm enjoying most are shot far more closed down.
That's an interesting point and I'm still trying to get the secret that's in it. This seems a too important factor in the visual expression to be left to random.
Do you see a difference in how an image looks, simply because it was produced on a larger capture area? I don't see the 8x10" quality that I have seen at first sight in Jones Hendershot's, Michael's guest, in that one, but certainly of some huge medium format. Perhaps 4x5" ? Of course, it is impossible to post full resolution samples. And by the way, what am I supposed to do now with that humongous 291MP picture ? :-(
I have to say at this stage that I don't, not in any of my images either. All good, if it was easy and obvious how to achieve such a thing, it would cease to be special.
Maybe we'll get there by the time we are grown up? :-D
alpshiker wrote: This is how the software deals with long cylindrical projections. The balcony was straight. But I welcome that touch of grace, do you?

8b43750696674b3aa181d512d3f8648b.jpg

724da987fdda4812b53b3fc671ae7625.jpg.png

It's certainly interesting. I wonder how the stitch would assemble if the whole thing was panned rather then the Vertex centre shifted then panned to expanded out to each side.
OK, I went back to the place yesterday and took another series with the Pentax A 35mm panned. I had it simply on a shift device, and made 3 rows. Except for a central row only composite, no luck.

The complete composite didn't come up well. The central row came up all right and I could use the rectilinear projection, but I had to forget the last two shots on the right.

Here are the examples:

3 rows shifted vertically with the P 35mm. Too many flaws.
3 rows shifted vertically with the P 35mm. Too many flaws.

It could not make use of the complete set of images in this projection
It could not make use of the complete set of images in this projection

The result however is good and would only need few corrections in Photoshop. A 229 MP cropped image.
The result however is good and would only need few corrections in Photoshop. A 229 MP cropped image.

The one central row was OK but there are some broken lines
The one central row was OK but there are some broken lines

Straightened and cropped
Straightened and cropped

A 100% crop
A 100% crop
How are you finding the Vertex? Are you noticing any vignetting using your P67 lenses? Can you tell if any vignetting is from the lens itself or from the throat reduction as it passes through the P67>P645 adaptor?
I find it very well made and useful. The P67 200mm vignettes very slightly, and it comes from the Vertex, not the P645 adapter. Maybe your plain 67 model will have a slightly wider throat, you'll see. A lens that vignettes can still produce a square image, but cannot be used for making wider panoramas with the method explained above. I'm also interested to find out if all P67 200mm new received the same coating. Mine which is not a late model, is a little too prone to flaring when I shoot against the light.
Thanks for the input Paul. I hope you'll stick around, you have a lot to offer here I think.

Cheers!
You're welcome and it's reciprocal !

Cheers, Paul
 
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That's a very interesting technical approach, Rob. Not the simplest but the results are in fact more faithful to the lens perspective than with the panning method which often compresses without taking into account the receding lines, when the software finds no landmarks to pin the points. The opposite is of course true with your "big lens method" as I would call it. It would for instance exaggerate the perspectives if the subject is too close and taken with a wide angle, as we all know, just as on film. In your example however, we can see how more naturally proportionate the branches are. Architecture is probably another place where proportions would be rendered very well with the method you use, in a more faithful perspective. Expecting to see more!

Cheers,

Paul

By the way, if you are not familiar with Rob's photography, and even if you are but you haven't been there for a while, check his black and white toned images of branches and roots. They are alive. I've never seen something like it.
 
Another application in which I find this approach worthy of interest is for close up photography. In this example, I used the EF 200mm 2.8, the GF 110mm f2, the Mamiya 645 80mm f1.9, and a mystery lens, all wide open. To comfort (or perplex me) in what I would like to demonstrate, would you like to try to guess which is which and also, rank the pictures by their overall look and effect? (Sharpness is not at stake). You can identify them by the stars numbers. I will then explain.



d997ea4ac9554db89ad46207a3ca9ab1.jpg.png
 
I like the smooth out of focus areas of ***, however it appears to be starting to swirl, which I hate. I think the first image could be improved enough, to challenge it, by avoiding the flowers in the foreground and by changing the position slightly to eliminate the upper background. I assume it would be one of the wider lenses.
 
I like the smooth out of focus areas of ***, however it appears to be starting to swirl, which I hate. I think the first image could be improved enough, to challenge it, by avoiding the flowers in the foreground and by changing the position slightly to eliminate the upper background. I assume it would be one of the wider lenses.
Thank you John, that's a very interesting comment and it feeds the question well. I'll give others time to respond before lifting the veil.

Cheers,

Paul
 
I wanted to add a little bit about projections and software. I find that Lightroom does a pretty good job of stitching 80ish percent of the time. Sometimes it completely falls down and can't stitch at all. Sometimes it just has too much distortion. When I need more control I use Autopano Giga which I don't think is available anymore. But it has a wider selection of projections and some of them have parameters which can be adjusted.

Forgive the editing on these. I just picked something that could illustrate the distortion and projection options.

Lightroom default spherical projection .
Lightroom default spherical projection .



Lightroom default spherical projection.
Lightroom default spherical projection.



Autopano spherical but notice all the other projection options.
Autopano spherical but notice all the other projection options.



Autopano with pannini selected gives some parameters that can be adjusted for distortion.
Autopano with pannini selected gives some parameters that can be adjusted for distortion.

--



Autopano pannini projection. Parameters adjusted to remove/reduce curved lines.
Autopano pannini projection. Parameters adjusted to remove/reduce curved lines.

I have not used other software just because Autopano has always given me what I need. Other software may have similar options. Lightroom is convenient but not always the best.




 
Here's a pano I made from a drone at our place in Scotland.


This is the River Nith, with Dumfries at the right edge and its outflow into the Solway Firth on the left near Criffel mountain.

The river is dead straight all the way, the big curve came from Lightroom stitching. I forget which method I used of the 3 available, but it is the only one that would stitch at all.
 
And just for fun, here is my first flat stitching adapter. It was fun to build and experiment with but I have to say that spherical stitching is far more practical.



e11ced898b854f56a702d43b248dbfae.jpg



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5ef43ea0be0b4db8bdb2618105788c61.jpg



ca5522f06b8b4e09a7e32279628a7a68.jpg



72bd25a480e24f07b7594bd069c8e177.jpg



d1cd93c09075451da96f77d6669a7db6.jpg



b6e4b9d74fa94038a4281995a69a6a2b.jpg



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I also have a stitching back from Fotodiox. Nicely made and easy to use. However I haven't got any lenses that fit it so it's just sitting on a shelf for now.

--
 
Another application in which I find this approach worthy of interest is for close up photography. In this example, I used the EF 200mm 2.8, the GF 110mm f2, the Mamiya 645 80mm f1.9, and a mystery lens, all wide open. To comfort (or perplex me) in what I would like to demonstrate, would you like to try to guess which is which and also, rank the pictures by their overall look and effect? (Sharpness is not at stake). You can identify them by the stars numbers. I will then explain.

d997ea4ac9554db89ad46207a3ca9ab1.jpg.png
I like this test because it shows how hard it is to do a real apples-to-apples comparison.

For example, I'm leaning to image *** primarily because of the light on the blooms. I also prefer the blurring of the foreground flowers at bottom right. I'm less fond of the background blur in ***, and prefer the one in **. It's complicated!
 
Jones, that is something worth looking at, and the proofs that it works for the intended use are in the quality of those images! Very three dimensional. Even though we all know that there is far more involved in that artistry than mere cameras, lenses and pixels – a wonderful eye not being the least. Thanks for sharing with us!

I sold the Toyo VX long ago while it was still worth something, but I still have a Technika folding and some lenses. Not the best for short lenses use, and I don't think the 50S would fit the adapter with its grip anyway. Never mind.

But I was told that you use a Nikon now? Or was that just the Nikon LF lenses on a technical camera? (admittedly that this is no secret recipe). Maybe there is still hope for us, mere GFX users?

Coming back to your software demo which I find most interesting too, I am sometimes confronted to the limitations of Lightroom, but in fact, mostly when I make silly images for the purpose of testing. Here is another example taken yesterday for that matter, from another viewpoint and with other gear than the one seen previously. Lightroom could not assemble those shots in the the rectilinear projection. They were taken from a low angle due to the arrow being out of field. I had to use the spherical projection which gave the first result, impossible for me to correct, since I have no clue on what filter would do that seamlessly (DxO Viewpoint won't, at least not my older version). But then I tried assembling them in Photoshop instead, using the perspective projection, and it came out as it was supposed to be. I just had to correct the keystoning in Lightroom and it was done. One of the cars looks on steroids though. But… there is a big loss in quality in the corners of the image, from which the first example doesn't suffer. This series wasn't taken with the Vertex, but simply with the 35mm on shift, panned around. I'll try the Vertex later to see if possibly, this helps with the Lightroom stitching tool.

Lightroom result in spherical (or cylindrical) projection
Lightroom result in spherical (or cylindrical) projection

Assembled in Photoshop and perspective corrected in Lightroom.
Assembled in Photoshop and perspective corrected in Lightroom.

It doesn't always stich better in Photoshop, but this time it did.
It doesn't always stich better in Photoshop, but this time it did.

Finally corrected in Lightroom.
Finally corrected in Lightroom.
 
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That's a very interesting technical approach, Rob. Not the simplest but the results are in fact more faithful to the lens perspective than with the panning method which often compresses without taking into account the receding lines, when the software finds no landmarks to pin the points. The opposite is of course true with your "big lens method" as I would call it. It would for instance exaggerate the perspectives if the subject is too close and taken with a wide angle, as we all know, just as on film. In your example however, we can see how more naturally proportionate the branches are. Architecture is probably another place where proportions would be rendered very well with the method you use, in a more faithful perspective. Expecting to see more!
As you get closer to the subject, I'm finding this works less well and its because of perspective. Things at the top of the image that "overhang" a bit can start to look a bit unnatural. That's a not problem (to my eye) in this example because I'm using a longer (125mm) lens.

This is an interesting thread because we're exploring things we can do with flat stitching that go beyond just making more pixels.
Cheers,

Paul

By the way, if you are not familiar with Rob's photography, and even if you are but you haven't been there for a while, check his black and white toned images of branches and roots. They are alive. I've never seen something like it.
Now that's just lovely. Thank you!
 
Jones, that is something worth looking at, and the proofs that it works for the intended use are in the quality of those images! Very three dimensional. Even though we all know that there is far more involved in that artistry than mere cameras, lenses and pixels – a wonderful eye not being the least. Thanks for sharing with us!
My pleasure.
I sold the Toyo VX long ago while it was still worth something, but I still have a Technika folding and some lenses. Not the best for short lenses use, and I don't think the 50S would fit the adapter with its grip anyway. Never mind.

But I was told that you use a Nikon now? Or was that just the Nikon LF lenses on a technical camera? (admittedly that this is no secret recipe). Maybe there is still hope for us, mere GFX users?
I hope I was not misleading with anything I said previously. I am not stitching with a GFX. I use a Nikon Z6ii. I think if I had a GFX I might be satisfied with the sensor size and just shoot single frames. I don't know what I would do with 300 plus Mpix images. My stitched images from the Nikon are about 170 or 180Mpix which is plenty large enough. I generally resize images for print to 300px/inch with the majority of my prints being 16x20 inches or 24x30 inches. On occasion I have made 5 foot prints but not that often. A 30 inch print @ 300ppi is only 9,000 pixels. My stitched images tend to be around 14,000 pixels on the long edge. My point is that the 24Mpix FF sensor feels like it is about the sweet spot for stitching for me. A 3 x 3 stitch has an effective sensor size of 66mm x 100mm Larger than a 6x7 but smaller than a 4x5. A 3 x 3 stitch with the GFX would be just about 4x5 size but I wouldn't want to be stitching 9 100mp frames.
Coming back to your software demo which I find most interesting too, I am sometimes confronted to the limitations of Lightroom, but in fact, mostly when I make silly images for the purpose of testing. Here is another example taken yesterday for that matter, from another viewpoint and with other gear than the one seen previously. Lightroom could not assemble those shots in the the rectilinear projection. They were taken from a low angle due to the arrow being out of field. I had to use the spherical projection which gave the first result, impossible for me to correct, since I have no clue on what filter would do that seamlessly (DxO Viewpoint won't, at least not my older version). But then I tried assembling them in Photoshop instead, using the perspective projection, and it came out as it was supposed to be. I just had to correct the keystoning in Lightroom and it was done. One of the cars looks on steroids though.
These kinds of corrections are a good reason for stitching. Since all our edits are destructive, if you start with a suitably large image you can make perspective corrections and still have plenty of image data left. Here is where flat stitching with a view camera would be perfect. Fix all your perspective issues with camera movements first.
But… there is a big loss in quality in the corners of the image, from which the first example doesn't suffer. This series wasn't taken with the Vertex, but simply with the 35mm on shift, panned around. I'll try the Vertex later to see if possibly, this helps with the Lightroom stitching tool.
I wouldn't expect any loss of quality in the corners unless the software correction was extreme.
 
Maybe we'll get there by the time we are grown up? :-D
Oh my, that is ambitious!! Does anyone ever really grow up, or do they just get better at pretending?
How are you finding the Vertex? Are you noticing any vignetting using your P67 lenses? Can you tell if any vignetting is from the lens itself or from the throat reduction as it passes through the P67>P645 adaptor?
I find it very well made and useful. The P67 200mm vignettes very slightly, and it comes from the Vertex, not the P645 adapter. Maybe your plain 67 model will have a slightly wider throat, you'll see. A lens that vignettes can still produce a square image, but cannot be used for making wider panoramas with the method explained above. I'm also interested to find out if all P67 200mm new received the same coating. Mine which is not a late model, is a little too prone to flaring when I shoot against the light.
Cheers, Paul
Nice one. Good call on getting the P645 model in that case. Mine apparently boarded a plane in Sydney 5 days ago and has not been heard from since. It is getting closer though!

It's interesting to see the different ways that the programs are managing the long balcony stitch. It feels a bit odd to me to hand this process so much over to automation. I think this is partly why flat shift stitching appeals to me, I'm really not asking the program to do much of anything to the images, just put them next to each other, do a small amount of alignment and blending, and hand it back to me as a single file. Kind of ridiculous I'm aware, when the level of complexity and technology involved in getting an image from the scene to the print is where it is at today.
 
Another application in which I find this approach worthy of interest is for close up photography. In this example, I used the EF 200mm 2.8, the GF 110mm f2, the Mamiya 645 80mm f1.9, and a mystery lens, all wide open. To comfort (or perplex me) in what I would like to demonstrate, would you like to try to guess which is which and also, rank the pictures by their overall look and effect? (Sharpness is not at stake). You can identify them by the stars numbers. I will then explain.

d997ea4ac9554db89ad46207a3ca9ab1.jpg.png
Hmmm... Not sure if I have anything of worth to respond with here, sorry Paul. Are you saying that these are stitched images?

I've never used any of those lenses. I could do my best to match focal length and max apertures with what I see in the images, however I'm pretty sure everyone here can do the same at least as well as I can.

'Rank the pictures...' - That I can do. By order of preference I like 4, 1, 3 then 2. For this scene I'm preferring a wider field of view and a bit more context in the background.
 
I love that these images were shot with such a thoroughly humble little camera... and yet they still have your stamp all over them.

Even with a 3x3 mosaic the capture size from aps-c is no bigger than just two GFX frames stitched. That says a lot.

Even if this is 4x2, guessing from the stitching back pictured, it's still in the same kind of ballpark size wise.
 

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