SMI (Sensitivity Metemerism Index) -- is it important?

Resolution does not matter for colour accuracy, as they are comparing to large uniform patches that are much larger than a pixel. Noise reduction does not help you if your average RGB values don't match the 'correct' ones. A metamarism error is not recoverable in post processing because the full spectrum data has been discarded in the mapping.
Here is my take:

You have (essentially) 3 channels of e.g. 14 bits each. The essential amount of information is somewhat less, say (for simplicity more than accuracy) that it is 8 bits per channel. That is, each full color sample (post demosaic) contains 3x8=24 bits of information about color. Now, this representation might not be ideal or conform to any standard representation of color. But through a full 24-bit table look-up we can re-map it. So what is the problem with this method (besides memory requirements, processing time and the issues of estimating the table)?

1. Two different colors might register as the same bit-pattern (I believe that this is the metamerism problem). There is no apparent fix for this, one would have to go for a compromise (e.g. render them as some intermediate color, or setup a rule that makes assumptions about which is most likely to appear in a scene etc).

2. Even if different colors generally result in different bit-patterns, the 3-d mapping could be highly "non-smooth". Two colors that are "close" in the camera representation might be "less close" in the corrected output representation. Or the other way around. This is not so much of a (simplified) theoretical problem, but it might be a large practical problem. With real-world problems such as noise and quantization, stretching the signal representation could make readily visible issues that would otherwise be invisible.

My gut-feeling is that 2) is more of a problem than 1), given the number of bits, level of noise and accuracy of CFAs?

-h
Yes, 1 Is the correct issue, but represents an 'ideal' case as you allude to in 2.

There are two forms to watch out for -

The type in 1, where two visually different colours look the same to the sensor, and where two spots that visually look the same visually look different to the sensor. They are not correctable automatically at all. Quantization errors, etc are not the limitation, it is that the RAW file does not contain ANY information that would tell the software how to shift two colours relative to each other - either closer together or further apart.

This is why cameras don't have 'perfect' colour on the colour check patches under standard lighting. It would be easy enough to design a mapping under controlled conditions to make it come out essentially perfect, but it would probably massively distort the colour quality under other circumstances.

To get more accurate colour you need to either have more eye like CFA filters, or more CFA colours (4 or more different pigments, at the cost of other issues).

The ultimate would be a sensor with tiny pixels that are small enough that they can record the actual wavelength of individual photons as they arrive, and then increment R, G, and B counters for each image pixel by a different quantity that was a function of the wavelength. If they were small enough and the sensor processing fast enough, it would do this as photons arrived and clear it before (on average) the next one arrived.
 
A spectrum of the incoming light is a continuous function that the sensor approximates with only 3 numbers. The the display approximately reconstructs this function by interpolation of these numbers. This is an approximation that works, because the human eye works the same way. The SMI shows how close the color filters in the sensor are close to the color filters in the human eye. In theory the closer the better, but in practice it does not hold true. Nikons with horrible colors have better SMI than Canons with excellent colors. If you look at the DXO numbers for SMI of popular DSLRs, there is no correlation with the practical color quality at all. You can safely ignore this measurement as completely meaningless in the practical sense.

It is not possible to change SMI in PP, but you don't need to. What you want and can change is actual colors, not some index with no practical meaning. Why do you think Canon's SMI is not 100%? Because Canon's goal is to achieve the best colors, not the best numbers, and if it so happens that the best colors are achieved by using slightly different numbers, who cares? One last thought. The SMI measurements are based on someone's data about the human eye. There is no guarantee this data is not flawed. It is possible that Canon's actual SMI would be much higher if the correct data were used.
 
Nikons with horrible colors have better SMI than Canons with excellent colors.
Let's just begin with this. I was unaware that Nikon had "horrible colors" whereas Canon had "excellent colors". As this is the Photographic Science and Technology Forum, I am assuming this is based on some form of credible evidence, which I'd be pleased to see.
 
Nikons with horrible colors have better SMI than Canons with excellent colors.
Let's just begin with this. I was unaware that Nikon had "horrible colors" whereas Canon had "excellent colors". As this is the Photographic Science and Technology Forum, I am assuming this is based on some form of credible evidence, which I'd be pleased to see.
It's based on the CHI (Color Horribleness Index).
 
Nikons with horrible colors have better SMI than Canons with excellent colors.
Let's just begin with this. I was unaware that Nikon had "horrible colors" whereas Canon had "excellent colors". As this is the Photographic Science and Technology Forum, I am assuming this is based on some form of credible evidence, which I'd be pleased to see.
It's based on the CHI (Color Horribleness Index).
I see I was asking about the wrong index, then. ;-)
 
Nikons with horrible colors have better SMI than Canons with excellent colors.
Let's just begin with this. I was unaware that Nikon had "horrible colors" whereas Canon had "excellent colors".
Someone had to bring it up for you ;)
As this is the Photographic Science and Technology Forum, I am assuming this is based on some form of credible evidence, which I'd be pleased to see.
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/53046518
 
Let's just begin with this. I was unaware that Nikon had "horrible colors" whereas Canon had "excellent colors".
Someone had to bring it up for you ;)
I’ve been struggling with photos of a dark navy blue sofa, for an interior designer. The camera makes it teal: darkening the image with curves turns the bright fuchsia paint into something murky; adjusting the color in ACR throws a huge number artifacts into the sofa.
 
Nikons with horrible colors have better SMI than Canons with excellent colors.
Let's just begin with this. I was unaware that Nikon had "horrible colors" whereas Canon had "excellent colors". As this is the Photographic Science and Technology Forum, I am assuming this is based on some form of credible evidence, which I'd be pleased to see.
It's based on the CHI (Color Horribleness Index).
One can observe and distribute χ²
 
Nikons with horrible colors have better SMI than Canons with excellent colors.
Let's just begin with this. I was unaware that Nikon had "horrible colors" whereas Canon had "excellent colors".
Someone had to bring it up for you ;)
As this is the Photographic Science and Technology Forum, I am assuming this is based on some form of credible evidence, which I'd be pleased to see.
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/53046518
Raw files, please?
 
Let's just begin with this. I was unaware that Nikon had "horrible colors" whereas Canon had "excellent colors".
Someone had to bring it up for you ;)
I’ve been struggling with photos of a dark navy blue sofa, for an interior designer. The camera makes it teal: darkening the image with curves turns the bright fuchsia paint into something murky; adjusting the color in ACR throws a huge number artifacts into the sofa.
Have you tried Adobe's DPE (DNG Profile Editor). You download it from here. The (PDF) documentation is here. I've used it to unsnarl what seemed to be metameric aliasing.

The DPE has two uses: you can use it to make a camera profile from scratch using a ColorChecker chart. Or you can open a DNG file of an image and edit whatever DNG profile is embedded in the image until the colors in the image look like you want them to. Then save the edited (and renamed!) DNG profile, start PhotoShop (or Lightroom) up again and use the profile you just edited on the image.

It is worth a shot for a problem like you describe. I've used it to rescue several images after I ran out of options with ACR and CS6.

Wayne
 
Let's just begin with this. I was unaware that Nikon had "horrible colors" whereas Canon had "excellent colors".
Someone had to bring it up for you ;)
I’ve been struggling with photos of a dark navy blue sofa, for an interior designer. The camera makes it teal: darkening the image with curves turns the bright fuchsia paint into something murky; adjusting the color in ACR throws a huge number artifacts into the sofa.
Have you tried Adobe's DPE (DNG Profile Editor).
As it seems, first thing to try is proper exposure and white balance.
 
Nikons with horrible colors have better SMI than Canons with excellent colors.
Let's just begin with this. I was unaware that Nikon had "horrible colors" whereas Canon had "excellent colors".
Someone had to bring it up for you ;)
As this is the Photographic Science and Technology Forum, I am assuming this is based on some form of credible evidence, which I'd be pleased to see.
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/53046518
Is the example to support your claim in the link above serious or just a joke? Because if you're serious...
 
Nikons with horrible colors have better SMI than Canons with excellent colors.
Let's just begin with this. I was unaware that Nikon had "horrible colors" whereas Canon had "excellent colors".
Someone had to bring it up for you ;)
As this is the Photographic Science and Technology Forum, I am assuming this is based on some form of credible evidence, which I'd be pleased to see.
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/53046518
Is the example to support your claim in the link above serious or just a joke? Because if you're serious...
He is serious ok.
 
Nikons with horrible colors have better SMI than Canons with excellent colors.
Let's just begin with this. I was unaware that Nikon had "horrible colors" whereas Canon had "excellent colors".
Someone had to bring it up for you ;)
As this is the Photographic Science and Technology Forum, I am assuming this is based on some form of credible evidence, which I'd be pleased to see.
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/53046518
Is the example to support your claim in the link above serious or just a joke? Because if you're serious...
He is serious ok.
Then I would ask how two photos from two different scenes with different lighting, both not only using flash, but different forms of flash (built-in direct vs off-camera bounced), with unknown white balance and processing, demonstrates anything, whatsoever, about which camera has "better color".
 
Nikons with horrible colors have better SMI than Canons with excellent colors.
Let's just begin with this. I was unaware that Nikon had "horrible colors" whereas Canon had "excellent colors".
Someone had to bring it up for you ;)
As this is the Photographic Science and Technology Forum, I am assuming this is based on some form of credible evidence, which I'd be pleased to see.
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/53046518
Is the example to support your claim in the link above serious or just a joke? Because if you're serious...
He is serious ok.
Then I would ask how two photos from two different scenes with different lighting, both not only using flash, but different forms of flash (built-in direct vs off-camera bounced), with unknown white balance and processing, demonstrates anything, whatsoever, about which camera has "better color".
That would be a good set of questions IMHO. May I add yet one more - how were the shots processed?
 
Have you tried Adobe's DPE (DNG Profile Editor). You download it from here. The (PDF) documentation is here. I've used it to unsnarl what seemed to be metameric aliasing.

The DPE has two uses: you can use it to make a camera profile from scratch using a ColorChecker chart. Or you can open a DNG file of an image and edit whatever DNG profile is embedded in the image until the colors in the image look like you want them to. Then save the edited (and renamed!) DNG profile, start PhotoShop (or Lightroom) up again and use the profile you just edited on the image.

It is worth a shot for a problem like you describe. I've used it to rescue several images after I ran out of options with ACR and CS6.
I shot a color checker passport sitting on the sofa, and made a custom profile with the passport software. That actually did help a bit. I haven’t tried the Adobe software yet.

The photos are due to the client by Friday, however, and there is little time to experiment!
 
Nikons with horrible colors have better SMI than Canons with excellent colors.
Let's just begin with this. I was unaware that Nikon had "horrible colors" whereas Canon had "excellent colors".
Someone had to bring it up for you ;)
As this is the Photographic Science and Technology Forum, I am assuming this is based on some form of credible evidence, which I'd be pleased to see.
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/53046518
Is the example to support your claim in the link above serious or just a joke? Because if you're serious...
He is serious ok.
Then I would ask how two photos from two different scenes with different lighting, both not only using flash, but different forms of flash (built-in direct vs off-camera bounced), with unknown white balance and processing, demonstrates anything, whatsoever, about which camera has "better color".
That would be a good set of questions IMHO. May I add yet one more - how were the shots processed?
Both shots are of the same girl at two real life events with AWB on either camera. The Canon shoot made a nice memory; the whole Nikon shoot was a waste. Those without a blindfold will see what they need to see and I have no agenda to convince those who cannot be convinced. I bought D800 to upgrade my 5D, but instead the Nikon went back to the store.

The processing is Camera Default in ACR with no post processing, essentially the same as straight out of camera JPEGs. The Canon flash was bounced off the wall, but I couldn't bounce the built-in flash in D800. Sorry, I am not comfortable providing raw files, because the girl is not a relative and I don't have a model release. I have nothing to prove, I simply answered a question about the basis for my opinion.

To make my point clear, I am not saying that Nikon is incapable of great skin tones, but it makes you work real hard for it in each and every shot while Canon does it all for you by default. As such, Nikon may be great for some pros and backyard technicians shooting resolution charts, but not for making family memories with the least effort.
 
most colors come out quite right with proper WB. However, somewhat singular colors exist. These colours may fall far off the mark and get aliased with a wrong colour.
The cause is that cameras do not have a perfect implementation of human tristimulus sensititvities. This systematic colour error is different from the statistical colour errors discussed in this thread.

Here is an eaxample of what I mean: The colour checker in the image below is quite OK. But, the jacket had to be adjusted with layer and masking to the correct colour in the left section. The recorded colour coues out so far off the mark, that trying to fix this by WB adjustments and colour curves messes up everything else.



 

Attachments

  • 2826211.jpg
    2826211.jpg
    652.2 KB · Views: 0
the whole Nikon shoot was a waste
It is your shot, not Nikon's.
You seem to be missing my point. Yes, it could have been better on Nikon with effort, but still not as good as on Canon without effort. Could I drive a manual stick shift? Yes I could and I have. Do I now? No, I don't even know how many shifts are in my MB, 6 or 7.
 

Keyboard shortcuts

Back
Top