Sigma Foveon and/or another alternative/additional camera system?

[Lukacs85]

Merrill is a decade old tech, it's a bit unfair comparison to a new high resolution bsi sensor. However I'd like to get 15MP "Merrillised" raw files from FP-L as a three layer sensor simulation. Of course you can do it in post process.

Theese high resolution Bayer sensors are making the three layer sensor obselete for good. Old Merrill was superior to 12-16MP bayer sensors, but I can't imagine now with an 20MP FF X3 sensor shows that supeirority over a 60MP Bayer. Of course it'd destroy Bayer on pixel level, or may have a bit adventage on same magnification, like no haloing edges and no moire. But theese advantages would be almost non existent in practice and defintely not worth the exchange for disadvantages, like PP speed, operation speed, processing battery consumption, color noise when start pushing shadows.

I think Sigma will give up the new Foveon development. I see a little chance as Yamazaki obsessed with the X3 design and unique cameras, they actually give us the X3 FF Foveon, but that will be the last X3. There are too many flaws, too little demand, and Sigma has no luxury to burn siginficant funds for an obsession. I'm very impressed with their perseverance, and like them because they're manufacturing great lenses and unique cameras as first priority of love of photograpghy and providing, not money making.

 

[Tom Schum]

Merrill is a decade old tech, it's a bit unfair comparison to a new high resolution bsi sensor. However I'd like to get 15MP "Merrillised" raw files from FP-L as a three layer sensor simulation. Of course you can do it in post process.

Theese high resolution Bayer sensors are making the three layer sensor obselete for good. Old Merrill was superior to 12-16MP bayer sensors, but I can't imagine now with an 20MP FF X3 sensor shows that supeirority over a 60MP Bayer. Of course it'd destroy Bayer on pixel level, or may have a bit adventage on same magnification, like no haloing edges and no moire. But theese advantages would be almost non existent in practice and defintely not worth the exchange for disadvantages, like PP speed, operation speed, processing battery consumption, color noise when start pushing shadows.

I think Sigma will give up the new Foveon development. I see a little chance as Yamazaki obsessed with the X3 design and unique cameras, they actually give us the X3 FF Foveon, but that will be the last X3. There are too many flaws, too little demand, and Sigma has no luxury to burn siginficant funds for an obsession. I'm very impressed with their perseverance, and like them because they're manufacturing great lenses and unique cameras as first priority of love of photograpghy and providing, not money making.

Thanks for agreeing with me. It's nice to know there are others out there with a practical viewpoint. Admittedly maybe our views are too practical, but business goes hand in hand with practicality.

The romantic idea of the never ending Foveon quest is very appealing from an artistic viewpoint, though, so I can't blame most of the others on this forum for holding onto hope.

 

[SigmaChrome]

Merrill is a decade old tech, it's a bit unfair comparison to a new high resolution bsi sensor. However I'd like to get 15MP "Merrillised" raw files from FP-L as a three layer sensor simulation. Of course you can do it in post process.

Theese high resolution Bayer sensors are making the three layer sensor obselete for good. Old Merrill was superior to 12-16MP bayer sensors, but I can't imagine now with an 20MP FF X3 sensor shows that supeirority over a 60MP Bayer.

I reckon your imagination needs some more exercise.

Of course it'd destroy Bayer on pixel level,

Yes it would.

or may have a bit adventage on same magnification, like no haloing edges and no moire. But theese advantages would be almost non existent in practice and defintely not worth the exchange for disadvantages, like PP speed, operation speed, processing battery consumption, color noise when start pushing shadows.

I think Sigma will give up the new Foveon development. I see a little chance as Yamazaki

WHO!?

obsessed with the X3 design and unique cameras, they actually give us the X3 FF Foveon, but that will be the last X3. There are too many flaws, too little demand, and Sigma has no luxury to burn siginficant funds for an obsession. I'm very impressed with their perseverance, and like them because they're manufacturing great lenses and unique cameras as first priority of love of photograpghy and providing, not money making.

I think you really have to understand AND imagine what can be achieved with the Foveon sensor. Mr Yamaki is trying to do that and I think he and Sigma will come up with something excellent, because they have great vision and imagination.

 

[Innocentius]

Greetings Sigma/Foveon People

Sigma Foveon and/or another alternative/additional camera system?

There isn't one. It doesn't exist.

Hello:

Hi

Just a bunch of questions, thoughts and/or comments?

I have currently a Sigma camera system, been advertising for sale.

I thought about selling my gear, but I can't as there isn't anything that matches the Foveon for IQ.

I have also alternative camera systems, and was curious, are others stayingwith Sigma, or possibly considering the Sony path (specifically because ofthe Sigma MC-11 (SA-E mount adapter)?

I have the use of other systems. Sony isn't an option, buying a Sony would be like buying a TV or VCR machine and if that were the case I'd buy an LG. You can spend your life looking but never find anything as good as the Foveon.

Shame that Sigma SA mount lenses can not be adapted/mount to Fuji XF mount.

It is

Foveon definitely has a special “look” to the photos, depending to on post processing.

The IQ the look is why we use the Sigma/Foveon. I don't do much PP and when I do I only use SPP.

Could you deifine IQ? I think a lot of people have their own idea of IQ.

 

[Scottelly]

Merrill is a decade old tech, it's a bit unfair comparison to a new high resolution bsi sensor. However I'd like to get 15MP "Merrillised" raw files from FP-L as a three layer sensor simulation. Of course you can do it in post process.

Theese high resolution Bayer sensors are making the three layer sensor obselete for good. Old Merrill was superior to 12-16MP bayer sensors, but I can't imagine now with an 20MP FF X3 sensor shows that supeirority over a 60MP Bayer. Of course it'd destroy Bayer on pixel level, or may have a bit adventage on same magnification, like no haloing edges and no moire. But theese advantages would be almost non existent in practice and defintely not worth the exchange for disadvantages, like PP speed, operation speed, processing battery consumption, color noise when start pushing shadows.

The development of the 20MP per layer FF X3 was announced before there was a full-frame camera with a sensor more than 50 MP available. The 60 MP does indeed seem to make the 20MP per layer FF X3 a bit of a moot point, but comparing it to the cameras from Canon and Nikon, which are all 45 MP, I think the Sigma will do just fine. I really think that from the beginning it was not about megapixels though. Sigma wasn't announcing a 20MP per layer sensor because they were trying to reach some goal of more megapixels. The SD Quattro already offers 20MP images, and the Merrills, which are many years old now, are pretty close to 20MP.

No, I think the full-frame Foveon is about something else, rather than just resolution. I do think Sigma will make a higher resolution camera in the future, but I really don't think high resolution is what the full-frame Foveon is about.

I think Sigma will give up the new Foveon development.

I don't.

I see a little chance as Yamazaki

His name is Yamaki . . . not Yamazaki. Just like your name is not Localass.

obsessed with the X3 design and unique cameras, they actually give us the X3 FF Foveon, but that will be the last X3.

Maybe, but hopefully not. People have been predicting the demise of the Foveon sensor for many years . . . in fact, almost twenty years. It still hasn't happened. Many even said a full-frame Foveon would never happen. Some even said Sigma COULDN'T make one. I think it's a matter of pride now. I think Sigma will make it just to prove they can, and I believe they will continue to make Foveon sensors to be different, and to get attention. I think a full-frame Quattro would probably produce enough free press that the free advertising would be worth whatever money they spend to deveop the sensor, and the cameras will sell. The SD Quattro H obviously did. There's a reason it sold out before the SD Quattro and other Sigma cameras that were developed and launched before the SD Quattro H. I think a full-frame Quattro will do quite well. I think the 20MP per layer FF X3 will sell out too . . . and even if it takes as long as the SD1 Merrill, so what? What does it matter? The fact that there is a large, walk-in closet or a shelf in their warehouse full of those cameras for a couple of years does not mean much. What matters is that Sigma makes something interesting and different, which artistic people can use to make wonderful, and slightly different, works of art, right?

There are too many flaws, too little demand, and Sigma has no luxury to burn siginficant funds for an obsession.

I think the opposite. I think Sigma is successful BECAUSE they burn significant funds for their obsession, and I think Mr. Yamaki has basically said almost exactly that, when describing how the development of the SD1 Merrill changed the company, causing them to increase the quality of their lenses. It's that obsession with image quality that has made Sigma the success they are today.

I'm very impressed with their perseverance, and like them because they're manufacturing great lenses and unique cameras as first priority of love of photograpghy and providing, not money making.

That's an interesting statement to be making, after making those other statements. I agree that Sigma is a very impressive company, with perseverence, and that they manufacture great lenses. They also create interesting and unique lenses, like the 18-35mm f1.8 Art, 60-600 Sport, etc. They think out of the box, and that's one of the things I like most about Sigma. I believe they do indeed love what they are doing, and that is wonderful to see happening. Most companies these days seem to be just all about money.

 

[xpatUSA]

The IQ the look is why we use the Sigma/Foveon. I don't do much PP and when I do I only use SPP.

Could you define IQ? I think a lot of people have their own idea of IQ.

IQ is defined here:

https://www.imatest.com/solutions/cpiq/

It's for camera phones but applies equally to any camera, IMHO.

I know of no such Standard for all cameras ...

--
Pedantry is hard work, but someone's gotta do it ...

 

[Lukacs85]

Of course Foveon is not about pure resolution, it is the Bayer way. But with Merrill you have 45 million pixels, with fp l you have 60 million. Technically the difference is obvious because of the different contrustion, in practice I don't see a reason why a 20-25MP X3 sensor would superior to 60MP interpolated. The processing difference may affect most on look of the image, also you see the on pixel level but not in practical viewing or print.

If they go with higher resolution to keep in race with Bayer, they end up with same problem as Merrill, noise because the small pixels of bottom layers.

However I have to admit that Merrill look still unique. I prefer 24MP Bayer image most times, but I've never been able to achieve that distant 3D look and grittines. The only thing I get beyond a certain point are artifacts. Moire also appears at some cases, but in case of Foveon X3 color bloches, desaturation, noise, banding cause a lot more problem.

I don't say high resolution Bayer makes Foveon pointless. Definitely like different technologies to available. Someone prefer x-trans, most folks Bayer. I'm still fan of three layer sensor and the most unique three full resolution layer, and there is a place for Quattro layout. But also I think high resolution Bayer has made a bigger hit on Foveon than ever, and the developing problems of the new X3 not make things easier.

 

[Innocentius]

The IQ the look is why we use the Sigma/Foveon. I don't do much PP and when I do I only use SPP.

Could you define IQ? I think a lot of people have their own idea of IQ.

IQ is defined here:

https://www.imatest.com/solutions/cpiq/

It's for camera phones but applies equally to any camera, IMHO.

I know of no such Standard for all cameras ...

Thanks for your quick reply! Really, I appreciate it.

So if I understand you correctly. There is a list somehwere of cameras where the 1:1:1 Foveons came out top notch with this test?

 

[xpatUSA]

The IQ the look is why we use the Sigma/Foveon. I don't do much PP and when I do I only use SPP.

Could you define IQ? I think a lot of people have their own idea of IQ.

IQ is defined here:

https://www.imatest.com/solutions/cpiq/

It's for camera phones but applies equally to any camera, IMHO.

I know of no such Standard for all cameras ...

Thanks for your quick reply! Really, I appreciate it.

You are most welcome.

So if I understand you correctly. There is a list somewhere of cameras where the 1:1:1 Foveons came out top notch with this test?

Sorry, I do not know of any such list. I was only referring Scott to a published standard which is incorporated into Imatest's very expensive software. In other words, I only gave Scott a definition of IQ in answer to his question.