Shoot with both M4/3 and Full Frame, or even APS-C

Thanks, that's what I want to hear:-)
This was taken on one of my walks using my Pen Lite E-PL5. What more do I need?

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The E-PL5 is limited in a number of ways the most critical for me is not having an EVF . I feel if you need/want a very small light option that the 1" cameras come into their own. My wife has the RX100 V .It has an EVF , built-in flash and a lens equiv to a m43 12-35mm F/2.4-3.7. It packs in a huge feature set but for my hands it is a pain in the backside regarding handling



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Assuming your walks are in daylight there are a number of smart phones with good camera options and powerful processing that make them viable options. Though for me a "real" camera is very much my preference . As most folk these days carry phones anyway it adds zero weight to your walk

--
Jim Stirling:
"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason, is like administering medicine to the dead." - Thomas Paine
Feel free to tinker with any photos I post
 
But, in the real world, can you see a real difference unless viewed very close. And is the dynamic range really wildly different?
Yes, huge difference bro...
 
I understand. I really love my system. Just considering something that gives more options when light is low. And I don't have to be so careful with keeping the ISO down below 800. Of course, I could just buy faster lenses.
Buying lenses with bigger apertures is all you would be doing with FF. It’s just that an f2 FF prime say is smaller and cheaper than an MFT f1.2 prime. The MFT prime performs a notch better wide open than most FF primes are designed to do but it does have more LoCA than most of them.

Forget comparing at the same ISO, the days of film are gone. What matters in low light is how much light the lens passes per s and how long you can keep the shutter open.

If you have a body with better IBIS and you are limited by needing more depth of field, MFT can be better in low light than FF. That is especially true for low light AF where you need say an f2.8 FF lens to match an f2.8 MFT lens. The OM1/OM3 sensor has a further advantage because of the QBPDAF array. HHHRes is a further technique in low light with static subjects.

In case it sounds like FF (FE in my case) has no advantages, see my first post.

The MFT f1.4 primes are a bit of a mixed bunch in terms of IQ, cost and copy variation. I have a good used copy of the PL 25/1.4 mk i and I’m very attached to it. The mk ii has faster AF, is WR, and hopefully less prone to copy variation. The 75/1.8 is unmatched in FF mirrorless as an AF 150/3.5 equivalent of that size, cost and decent IQ. There are many AF 135/1.8 lenses but look at the size of them.

I find my 20-70/4 a bit big and expensive, although it was discounted. Then I compare it to the PL 10-25/1.7 and feel better.

A
 
Maybe I should just be happy with what I have and just raise the ISO and deal with it in PP. I don't pixel peep and never print.
 
My go to for travel is the 14-140ii. For street, 12-32 3.5 and a 25mm1.7 for inside and low light. I'm looking at getting a 12-60. But, we shall see.
I see the 12-35mm f2.8 and 35-100mm f2.8. in your future! Unless you are very tight on budget get the latest versions. Panasonic are good at small lenses with OIS.

The OM 40-150/2.8 would exceed your 14-140, but doesn’t have OIS. Internal focussing and zoom are great but add to storage size. The retractable hood is really nice until it explodes (apparently).

A
 
I've been with m43 since the original Panasonic G1. Over the years I have bought -- and sold -- three FF systems.

What I found was very little advantage out in the real world. For still life in the studio, working with flash and on a tripod, there was some advantage in resolution, but that pretty much disappeared when I went hand-held out in the world. At best I could only see the difference blown up large on screen or in a really big print.

And to take full advantage I needed premium lenses. Overall the extra cost, size, and weight more than offset the advantage.

My advice: If you go FF go for high MP and premium lenses. Otherwise stick with M43.

Gato

A summary of my experience:

Tried a Sony A99. Lovely color but the autofocus had limited coverage and was less accurate than I was used to.

Tried a Nikon D800 for the high MP count. Really sweet on a tripod with studio flash, but that's less than one percent of what I do. Outdoors hand-held it was hard to see much advantage. Maybe on a good day at high magnification on screen. Again, focus was less accurate than I was used to.

Tried a Sony A7r, again looking for high MP. Results were not as good as the best from the Nikon, though I could never figure out just why. Autofocus was more consistent. Overall, just didn't like it. Sony has improved a lot since that first generation, but not enough for me to put out the cash.

FWIW
 
Maybe I should just be happy with what I have and just raise the ISO and deal with it in PP. I don't pixel peep and never print.
 
I've been with m43 since the original Panasonic G1. Over the years I have bought -- and sold -- three FF systems.

What I found was very little advantage out in the real world. For still life in the studio, working with flash and on a tripod, there was some advantage in resolution, but that pretty much disappeared when I went hand-held out in the world. At best I could only see the difference blown up large on screen or in a really big print.

And to take full advantage I needed premium lenses. Overall the extra cost, size, and weight more than offset the advantage.

My advice: If you go FF go for high MP and premium lenses. Otherwise stick with M43.

Gato

A summary of my experience:

Tried a Sony A99. Lovely color but the autofocus had limited coverage and was less accurate than I was used to.

Tried a Nikon D800 for the high MP count. Really sweet on a tripod with studio flash, but that's less than one percent of what I do. Outdoors hand-held it was hard to see much advantage. Maybe on a good day at high magnification on screen. Again, focus was less accurate than I was used to.

Tried a Sony A7r, again looking for high MP. Results were not as good as the best from the Nikon, though I could never figure out just why. Autofocus was more consistent. Overall, just didn't like it. Sony has improved a lot since that first generation, but not enough for me to put out the cash.

FWIW
Modern mirrorless systems are much better and lenses are completely different in terms of design and performance, even over the last 5 years.

I had an A7R, it had awful shutter shock and was a dog of a camera with an excellent sensor.

Andrew
 
Actually, I do have a 35-100 and a 100-300ii
 
Yes, I can of course see the depth of field difference. But, that's not the only thing that I see about photography. With street and travel photography, it's not as important as portrait photography, which I don't do. If I were into portrait photography, it'd be a no brainer.
 
You are right. Thanks!
 
I'm interested to know how many of you shoot with both M4/3 and FF or APSC.
I have and use all three. Used least = FF. My FF cameras are too big and heavy -- the lenses are bigger and heavier and when I use a camera I'm most often walking and carrying it.
Could you point to one FF lens that is larger than a m43 lens doing the same job ( diagonal AOV, DOF /subject isolation and total light gathering ). Within m43 folk seem to understand the benefit of better DOF/subject isolation and total light gathering :-)

Example



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I don't have the Oly 20mm F/1.4 ( my 20mm Panasonic serves me well on my GX8 ) I do have a GX8 my most used m43 camera . I also have the Sony A7cr with 40mm F/2.8

This is an honestly equivalent lens comparison



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If you can find a m43 lens genuinely equivalent to a FF lens the chances of finding a smaller option are unlikely and the chances of finding a cheaper one even less likely



Those that do, why? I realize that FF is better at low light and lower noise.
No question and that's one case where I will get out the FF camera.
But, in the real world, can you see a real difference unless viewed very close. And is the dynamic range really wildly different?
If you can expose enough (tripod) then yes but, big BUT, it's usually overkill.
Unless you are shooting in very poor light the need for a tripod with most FF cameras is optional. Canon, Nikon ,Sony , Panasonic even Leica have FF cameras with IBIS. I can do a solid 1s with my Z cameras at 100% hit rate , a bit better with a lower hit rate. Which covers almost all my shooting

I can almost squeeze 10 stops of DR from my MFT cameras and that's enough in 95+ percent of the natural light world I'm working in. My FF cameras can just about manage 12 stops at base ISO but I don't need that -- I rarely need 10 stops.
Talk me out of getting a FF, please.

My shooting style is street, travel and general outings with local photo clubs that I'm involved. I know that for birding and wildlife, I'm better off with the M4/3 for the 2X crop. But, Belgium is a dark country in the winter, so ? .
Bottom line for me is what will I carry. I have a MFT E-PL5 that goes with me everywhere I go. I don't use a phone camera -- I do use the E-PL5 (smaller than my phone in two dimensions). If I didn't have the E-PL5 I'd miss a whole lot of photos that I don't miss now because I wouldn't carry around a bigger camera. That also make the E-PL5 my most used camera. I does the job.
I don't like phone cameras either but if like most folk you already have it with you it adds 0 to your load. In decent light the better phone cameras combined with their ample processing abilities can give very decent results





--
Jim Stirling:
"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason, is like administering medicine to the dead." - Thomas Paine
Feel free to tinker with any photos I post
 
If you think you miss an EVF now, wait until you get older and your arms get too short.
I spent a few quid on the best lenses I have ever bought a couple of years back to deal with such an issue . I was worried I would need to adapt a long selfie stick for such viewing :-)

 
I'm interested to know how many of you shoot with both M4/3 and FF or APSC. Those that do, why? I realize that FF is better at low light and lower noise. But, in the real world, can you see a real difference unless viewed very close. And is the dynamic range really wildly different? Talk me out of getting a FF, please.

My shooting style is street, travel and general outings with local photo clubs that I'm involved. I know that for birding and wildlife, I'm better off with the M4/3 for the 2X crop. But, Belgium is a dark country in the winter, so ? .

Thanks for your thoughts,
I use m43, APSC, and FF. But I'm not a wildlife or big telephoto user, my use case is a standard zoom, F4 or variable being fine so long as the IQ is excellent, plus faster compact primes in the "normal" 40mm to 60mm range, and maybe a prime in the 70-85mm range. That's it. No interest or use for entire "systems," or Holy Trinity f2.8 zooms, or "Big Whites," or any of that. So I've given myself the fun of trying and having cameras and lenses in all three formats and like them all.

Yes, FF is better in low light, better dynamic range, and delivers more malleable files I call more "clean and sparkly." Yes, same is true of APSC versus m43 though by a much smaller margin. But FF is bulkier and heavier, though not horribly depending on your use case. When I use FF (Nikon Z) I am carrying only one or two primes and sometimes a standard Z 24-70 S zoom, more often no zoom. Because lugging a bunch of heavy stuff around saps the fun out of it.

The Nikon f1.8 S primes are Zeiss Otus quality at very reasonable prices for what they deliver. I do have the 50mm f1.8 S from that line and it's a knockout. As for the "soul," and the "art," and the "creativity," well, those qualities reside in you. Either they are there in your eye, your mind, and your heart . . . or they are not.

It is true that the Z "S" line primes are bit bulky and heavy. However, Nikon Z also features light, compact, faster FF primes often dubbed the "muffins," that deliver excellent IQ and are loved in some quarters for their character rendering. A 40mm f2, two at 26mm and 28mm f2.8, and a 50mm f2.8 that is also an MC. I've noticed that many gear snobs, particularly at DPR, overlook or look down their noses at these lenses and their plastic construction. But they outperform their F mount "G" predecessors, which have produced many a classic photo. If one wanted to try FF, one of the smaller Z5/6/7/ZF bodies with one or two of those primes and maybe the 24-70 F4 S zoom (an "S" zoom acquirable used at very reasonable prices) is a relatively portable outfit.

Having said all that, though I will always use Z FF if for work or a once-only event or occasion for others, if for my own use, at least as often as FF I'll instead be rolling with one of the small bodies and a small fast prime or two, with or without a small standard zoom, in Olympus m43 or Nikon or Fuji APSC. The fun factor and the charm factor are irresistible with mini-size bodies and lenses that also deliver delightful images.

Another way to come at this might be: How much do you print? How large do you print? Because with recent sensors and everything being optimal with your shooting technique and exposure, up to, say, 11X14" or 11X16", honestly, format difference isn't going to matter substantially. And if you print very little, format difference basically doesn't matter at all.
 
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I believe there must be differences in the real world, even I don't shoot FF or APSC. Only based on the fact that more and more people use FF and APSC.
 
Since you already have M4/3 bodies, maybe look at fast lenses like the PL 10-25 f1.7 and PL 25-50 f1.7 for low light photography. Might be cheaper than investing in a whole new system. Maybe you can rent them first to see if they solve your low-light scenarios.
 
I'm interested to know how many of you shoot with both M4/3 and FF or APSC. ...
After many years of photography (45+) I have come to realize that it's not really about the equipment. You can make incredible images with a shoe-box pin hole camera on a 4x5" piece of sheet film.
 
If you were doing street photography with FF, I suspect you'd be closing the aperture to raise DOF.

At any given DOF subject distance and FOV, there wouldn't be any advantage of FF over MFT
I'm sure what street photographers over the decades were missing DOF in their craft.
 

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