Sharpness - Doesn't Add Up

[WBirch]

Mark,

Remember that many Drebel folks that post pics for the internet are
trying to duplicate their actual prints (at least I am). Some go way
too far with post over-sharpening. True.

My 300D pics generally NEVER require sharpening when they are
printed! There is no 'manufacturing problem' as you stated. The
problem is trying to compress very large images down to manageable
fast loading web images and often some sharpening is def req'd.

If you've never owned a 300D or 350XT, I suggest that you at least
try one out and either print your own or have them printed elsewhere
to make a final rational judgement call on what is better better quality
between a P&S or a dSLR. Both have their advantages. For actual
prints, nothing compares to using a dSLR properly in my experience,
compared to a P&S. IMO.

Wayne.
==================

4. User Perception Wrong (It is Sharp) - The audience of most
pictures is non-photographers, not people reciting camera
specifications. The “Emeror’s New Clothes” comes to mind when I
see comments that soft images are actually better for all shots or
that the images really are sharp, the user is not interpreting them
correctly. In light of the number of complaints regarding lack of
sharpness, this is not an imaginary issue. Granted, soft images is
a very valid style but sharp should be the default in-camera
processing.

My best guess? Either they have manufacturing consistency problems
or rushed the models to market without proper fine tuning.

-- Mark

 

[WBirch]

I posted a similar reply to yours before reading yours...

Sharpening highly reduced large megapixel images for the 'web' is nec.
Trick is not to use too much....

Wayne.
================

Post processing is not required, the images out of the XT are sharp
enough for standard sized prints.
For web use, sharpening has to be applied again anyway after a resize.
If you still need sharper images, your best bet is to get a sharper
lens. All other solutions have their downsides:

The sharpest out of camera images probably came from the first
digital Kodak camera's because they didn't have an AA filter. The
downside was that it was very easy to get images with moiré in them.

The other solution is to use software sharpening, but this doesn't
add any detail to your image but it will create that illusion up to
a certain point. However, the amount of sharpening that has to be
applied differs from picture to picture. What might work on one
image might still look to soft or over sharpened on another. There
really is no one size fits all sharpening setting. If you want to
get the best out of an image, human intervention is required.

Also, the in camera sharpening is not that great. At +2, the halo
sharpening effect can already be noticed. The reason why Canon
didn't make it more powerful is probably because it would only make
noise stand out even more. ISO800+ probably wouldn't be that
usuable anymore with more aggressive sharpening.

As for the kit lens, it may produce softer images, but it does beat
my P&S camera hands down when it comes to barel distortion and CA.

For every choise, there is a trade off.

 

[Roy52252]

He makes a VALID point and people start to call him TROLL and start flaming him. Sorry but he is 100% right. Average people (not the ones who post on Dpreview) want an entry level DSLR (which a Rebel is) to take sharp pics out of the camera without touching it (not film like silky smooth). There are so many people that think Photoshop is part of the process and LOVE playing with their pics that they slam anyone who opposes this. If you post on this forum and you like your camera you are NOT the people I am talking about so there is no need to defend your love of the camera. There is a hugh market Canon is losing, or are just waiting for such a DSLR.

Maybe the PRO models, there can be made a case for this but, an entry level person (that doesn't post on this forum because they don't have the time or they are not as into photography) buys a Canon Rebel or 20D and says "I think my P&S looks better" and returns the DSLR and Canon loses all those future lens sales. You don't hear from these people because they DON'T POST.

That is why I still use my 1D and my friends and relatives have returned many a DSLR thinking it would be sharp out of camera like the 1D. If you love spending all that time on your pics that's fine but there is ALOT of people Canon is losing to the P&S market or other manufactures who just want an out of the box DSLR that you don't mess with other than changing lenses ( which they want to do and want ISO and focusing performance) and it is just pretentious to say that's why they should stay with P&S cameras (like we're better than them) and you're a troll to suggest otherwise. Sure some people like the filmlike softness look but IT IS NOT the masses who don't post that buys and returns the entry level DSLR. So he's saying "Canon, make a camera for them" the ones that don't post, but we hear from all too often.

When someone asks which DSLR to buy, I just say, " buy a used 1D on EBay for the same as a new 20D" because, I know what they want, and that is not postprocessing, just sharp Jpegs straight out of the camera, which the 1D delivers (at least Canon gets more lens sales). I am not a 1D snob and don't tell me the advantages of even better ISO performance of other cams and less banding which the firmware got rid of anyway, or even more megapixels. I have just dealt too much with my brothers (the average person that never posts and doesn't even know what Dpreview is) who have the Rebel and 20D and are so frustrated with the out of camera quality of these DSLRs that they have returned it in one brothers case or just lets it sit in the other brothers case because they don't have time for RAW or PP. I am just not as pretentious to say "Naive, you should stick to P&S". He just says "I am just going to buy a used 1D from Ebay or wait (which is what alot of consumers are doing) till Canon comes out with (what they consider, not you) sharp out of the camera Jpegs. That is an untapped Canon DSLR market.

OK, off my soapbox.

--
Stop pointing fingers and lend a hand.

 

[Jeff Varszegi]

and Canon listens. They did research, slapped together the 20D and XT, and it is the best-selling DSLR ever made. You can't argue with success.

You're assuming something for no reason. One anecdote is not data; one person, or a few, saying "I wish my DSLR were exactly like my P & S" does not indicate a broad trend. You're arguing over nothing, and assuming that everyone who ever bought a prosumer DSLR is a complete idiot.

 

[Travis Feisthamel]

Thats the approach Nikon did with their D50 camera. And no I am not being a TROLL for Nikon as I am all for Canon have been for years.
--
Travis
http://www.pbase.com/fototravis
Canon Digital Rebel and Powershot A80 User

 

[Travis Feisthamel]

One thing I notice is that the Canon DSLRs seem to loose some of the midtones as your shot shows. Almost evey shot needs a level adjustment. Nikon has their "D-Lighting" mode which basically is an auto level control. If Canon did this in their green modes I thing the casual non-post processing users would be happy. Afterall, they are marketing them to be shoot and print right out of the camera, hence PictBridge.

--
Travis
http://www.pbase.com/fototravis
Canon Digital Rebel and Powershot A80 User

 

[Roy52252]

That is why I said repeatedly I am not speaking for those on this forum and especially for pretentious people that assume things and make accusations of idiocy.

I am speaking for the many people that approach me while shooting (but never post, the average Joe), and I know that have different needs and would like a model for them. A different model, but as I said before, pretentious people and the love of their equipment leads them to make assumptions and attacks that aren't there in order to defend their purchase. Thank you for making my point.

Canon offers the XT, 20D and 1D MKII and IDSMKII all for different purposes. Under your thinking they should just offer the XT or 20D and that's it because it's the "best selling DSLR". Nikon should just give up. I think that there is room for others that don't share some peoples taste and would like sharp Jpegs( in their opinions not yours) out of camera and would accept a little moire or AA in exchange. That in no way conveys any opinion on current users of ANY DSLR expressed or implied except, the pretentious that feel a need to defend their equipment against a phantom attack.

 

[Travis Feisthamel]

I agree with you 100%. I myself like control but it should have a way that the average P&S user should be able to shoot without thought. Like I stated before, they market the cameras this way. Thats why they have Pictbridge compatibility and even sell the small printers such as the CP-220's etc to print directly from camera.
--
Travis
http://www.pbase.com/fototravis
Canon Digital Rebel and Powershot A80 User

 

[photoguynorth]

The 1Ds has pictbridge, and it is not a 'beginner' camera! Canon does NOT market the 300D, 350D or 20D as consumer cameras aimed at P&S users. They market them as entry level DSLRs. If a P&S user wants the added flexibility and features of a DSLR, they should realize that they are DSLRs, not advanced P&S cameras. If not, then they might be better off with any of the many available advanced P&S models on the market.

--
Come and look at my ego site (I mean website)
http://www.outnumbered.ca

 

[Akkers]

Its a simple fact that the 350d is a flawed camera with focusing and other problems. But you cannot say that here because you will be shot down like a space invader. The sooner Canon admit the better it would be for struggling photographers.

 

[Pedagydusz]

Roy,

You missed the point completely. This is not about brand loyalty, is about somebody writing about things he/she doesn't understand and making it look like it is somebody's fault. This IS irritating. It annoys me.

Your post is completely off mark, in regard to facts. I have owned, and used, several film cameras over three decades, some of which I loved (still do). I have owned several P&S cameras - some gave me excellent memmories! But the moment I switched to DSLR (Canon, started with a D60, later upgraded), the quality of my pictures went so much above the P&S ones that I am infuriated (OK, that is an exageration) when someone pretends, looking serious, and posing as an expert, that the quality is comparable (let alone better in the P&S!).

Those who write like the OP, should be told that they are wrong. It is our obligation to do so - otherwise we are just failing them (assuming they are not trolls).

I am not familiar with your camera. May be it gives sharper JPEGs of the camera. But cranking up the 20D or the 350D/XT will produce images as sharp as anybody may want them - knowledgeable or naive - if everything is done correctly from a photography point of view (forget digital, film, or pin-hole, just photography, well done, in P mode).

If I take JPEGs with my 20D or my 350D, and print 10x15 cm prints, everybody, from Aunt Maria to the local pro says - "well, they are sharp!"
Now the local pro may not think they are any good - but that is another story!

Antonio

 

[NYC Photos]

"...are busy printing their 4x6..."

Once again, ridiculous assumptions are made and sterotypes applied on this forum.

I bought my Rebel XT at Costco, making a conscious decision to pay a bit more than I might have elsewhere. Why? Because if ANYTHING goes wrong, I walk in the door and they give me my money back. Period. No questions asked.

--
Canon Rebel 350D
Canon Powershot SD300
Canon Powershot S70

 

[Roy52252]

Canon's film Rebel (which the 300 and 350d get their name) was a good camera for novices which provided excellent results with little or no SLR experience. People that approach me want the same tack sharp easy of use DSLR and I know Canon can, or someone else will, produce it. Three years ago there were not many 10x optical stabilized cameras other than the UZI and Pro IS, now Panasonic, Canon, Epson, and Oly have them (some not stabilized) and keep out doing each other. It would be another nitche camera model that would satisfy ALOT of people.

--

Stop pointing fingers and lend a hand.

 

[Jeff Varszegi]

There are no focus problems with my camera, with any of my lenses. What are you talking about?

 

[Jeff Varszegi]

:O) Learn how to use your equipment, so you won't be so gosh-darned unhappy!

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1021&message=6096124

 

[Jeff Varszegi]

You make a point (based on supposition only) that many people are buying DSLRs and being unhappy with them. Why, I don't know. Also, you look past the actual message of the OP. It is not really "Canon et al. should make more P & S-like DSLRs", it is "This particular model of DSLR should be more like a P & S".

This is incorrect, since from everyone's point of view the situation is fantastic: Canon's, the consumer's, and the reviewers'. Just about the only people that hate the 350XT are cross-posters from the Nikon part of the site.

Honestly, I think that the auto ISO feature of the D70s is a great feature. I've also heard that Nikon puts level indicators in their cameras, to help you avoid off-center pictures; that's another great feature. Any feature that makes it easier for people to take pictures well is a good one. However, you can't say that all cameras that aren't P & S-like are hunks of junk. You also can't (believably) lament the failure of a particular camera to be P & S-like when the intent is obviously to bash.

 

[Travis Feisthamel]

A digital SLR should have P&S usability with lens change options period, has been that was since the first autofocus film SLRs. And yes, it should also have more control for those who want it also like most of the users on this forum. But I can't see why any camera would offer Pictbridge IF they weren't supposted to print directly from the camera and be "acceptable". I know post processing is ALWAYS better but if your shots are almost always off in the green modes that defeats the purpose of direct printing, and a P&S camera should not be better than an SLR in this case.

I think Nikon recognized this fact with the D50 which gives the "effect" of the P&S shooter to a DSLR in the end. Canon just needs to offer this too.

--
Travis
http://www.pbase.com/fototravis
Canon Digital Rebel and Powershot A80 User

 

[cameras]

you must be trying to short Canon stock or something as only in the twilight zone is what you say true.

 

[nweibley]

Its a simple fact that the 350d is a flawed camera with focusing
and other problems. But you cannot say that here because you will
be shot down like a space invader. The sooner Canon admit the
better it would be for struggling photographers.

This makes me chuckle.

 

[photoguynorth]

How many 1Ds owners do you think bought the camera because of Pictbridge? The claim seems to be (be several posters) that the 350D has Pictbridge, therefore it is marketed to beginner DSLR buyers who want to print directly. If that holds, then the 1Ds is a very expensive beginner DSLR for those who don't want to PP their shots.

There may be a market for a tyro DSLR, but I have yet to see anything that shows the DREBELs are aimed at that market. They are entry level DSLRs. Film SLRs are a different animal - I have (had) a film Rebel, so I know what they were like. In fact, I heard lots of complaining about them because auto mode was not the same as P&S cameras (but for different reasons).

--
Come and look at my ego site (I mean website)
http://www.outnumbered.ca