sej1001
Veteran Member
Ok I understand the FF craze. However, first of all it will most likely make it a larger body. Second, I'm afraid to see the price tag.
Steve J.
Steve J.
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S3 due next summer
- Thread starter ron purdy
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uk102
Senior Member
Hi,
If you want dynamic range then look at the Kodak 14n. Said to be good 4 that.
Alex
If you want dynamic range then look at the Kodak 14n. Said to be good 4 that.
Alex
ResIpsaLoquitur
Senior Member
Now, there you go, repeating urban myths about the 14n
It's just taken a nother step forward with the latest firmware. I think the 14n is now a great camera, with superior resolution to the 1Ds. Personally I think tha the viewfinder is great after using 1.5 crop cameras.RIL
ResIpsaLoquitur
Senior Member
It is.
The 14n has benefitted from new 4.4 firmware and the new 3.2 version of Photodesk, both released in the last week or so. Its not a perfect camera (what is?), but there are a large number of happy 14n users raving, with some justification, about the incredible resolution, dynamic range etc. Just don't use it too much at 400 ISO. I keep my S2 for that.
RIL
Thom Hogan
Forum Pro
Really? Have you actually shot with a Pro 14n? When you correct for Kodak's over enthusiastic dynamic range (I've seen the camera try to capture 10 stops at times if I'm to believe the histogram ticks, which I do), the images are quite stunning at ISO 80 and decent at higher ISOs.
As for double page spreads, Sports Illustrated has been running double trucks from 3 and 4mp cameras for almost two years now.
--
Thom Hogan
author, Nikon Field Guide & Nikon Flash Guide
author, Complete Guides to the Nikon D100, D1, D1h, & D1x and Fujifilm S2
http://www.bythom.com
joepix
Leading Member
SI is not the same as a finicky art director from an ad agency who wants to see every last detail of the product he's selling. Editorial sports pix are a whole different matter- more concerned with action and excitement then seeing the fabric weave of a model's sweater, or the glisten off the chrome of a couple of expensive pens.
And yes, I have shot with a 14n. The viewfinder sucks, and the fine details in a pix are just plain weird- especially things like the models' hair- and since one of my clients sells hair products... well, it just won't do.
Jpix
And yes, I have shot with a 14n. The viewfinder sucks, and the fine details in a pix are just plain weird- especially things like the models' hair- and since one of my clients sells hair products... well, it just won't do.
Jpix
alexis thompson
Well-known member
We are talking about the possibility for an S3, not the 14n. Fine, the 14n might have better dynamic range, but it is not the next Fuji S series. What would make the S3 better is what we are talking about and I want a SuperCCD camera, not Kodak's low ISO alternative. Telling me to buy the 14n right now is not an answer to my thoughts on the next S camera from Fuji.
I am happy with my S2 and will be interested in the upgrade next year. If anyone is not happy with the S2, sell it and go buy a 14n. Did you sell your S2 and get the 14n? If not, why not? I am loyal to the S series and Fuji. If their next generation sucks and the competition smokes them (I don't expect that to happen), I will at that time think about a different brand. Until then, My s2 rocks and the S3 is in my future.
I added my thoughts to this thread because I am a Fuji fan and gave my 2 cents about a future camers. No speculation of what they are planning and no camplaints about my current S2, just thoughs on an even better one next round.
SuperCCD SR (or a new sensor that does the same thing) is a good looking opportunity for the next DSLR.
-Alexis
http://www.alexisthompson.com
I am happy with my S2 and will be interested in the upgrade next year. If anyone is not happy with the S2, sell it and go buy a 14n. Did you sell your S2 and get the 14n? If not, why not? I am loyal to the S series and Fuji. If their next generation sucks and the competition smokes them (I don't expect that to happen), I will at that time think about a different brand. Until then, My s2 rocks and the S3 is in my future.
I added my thoughts to this thread because I am a Fuji fan and gave my 2 cents about a future camers. No speculation of what they are planning and no camplaints about my current S2, just thoughs on an even better one next round.
SuperCCD SR (or a new sensor that does the same thing) is a good looking opportunity for the next DSLR.
--
-Alexis
http://www.alexisthompson.com
How many of us have the luxury of shooting ISO 80 all the time? If my shooting condition would allow ISO 80 all the time, I might as well move back to 4x5 film shooting with their f/ 5.6 prime lenses.
uk102
Senior Member
Hi,
Point being. Nikon & Canon can sell there camera on name alone(almost anyway). Fuji on the other hand needs their camera to stand out in some way.
They need something stunning. Dynamic range is not enough (IMHO) to be a Nikon or Canon killler evan if it's what we really need. Extra pixels & Full frame might well be the feature.
Personally i don't care to much what brand my next camera is, but it needs to be a worth while upgrade from what I have today.
Alex
Point being. Nikon & Canon can sell there camera on name alone(almost anyway). Fuji on the other hand needs their camera to stand out in some way.
They need something stunning. Dynamic range is not enough (IMHO) to be a Nikon or Canon killler evan if it's what we really need. Extra pixels & Full frame might well be the feature.
Personally i don't care to much what brand my next camera is, but it needs to be a worth while upgrade from what I have today.
Alex
Thom Hogan
Forum Pro
Don't shoot in JPEG and set noise reduction to its lowest level. This is one of the areas in which the last two firmware revisions on the camera have made a big difference.
--
Thom Hogan
author, Nikon Field Guide & Nikon Flash Guide
author, Complete Guides to the Nikon D100, D1, D1h, & D1x and Fujifilm S2
http://www.bythom.com
I can't agree. At $500 price level for amatures, Nikon and Canon can sell on name alone, as they indeed do in compact digicam market despite their offerings there being inferior to Minolta or Sony. At $2000-plus, it is the quality that matters. Fuji is a familiar brand in professional photography, especially medium and large format camera and lenses; don't they make the latest Hassies? A properly designed and built S3 on a real pro body with the next generation SuperCCD would be a strong incentive for me to load up on Nikkor lenses, now that Nikon flash system has finally caught up with Canon's ETTL (assuming I can actually find a store carrying a few of the SB-800's)
The Luma II does not use Fuji's SuperCCD,
but probably the Dalsa (Philips) sensor.
It's not made by Fuji, but has a Fuji label.
Artichoke
Forum Pro
FF would be a deal killer for me and I think far more folks prefer the "magnification" of the 1.5 crop than want full frame
extreme wide angle lenses are a great deal less expensive than extreme telephotos
more folks use telephoto than wide angle
larger CCDs are much, much more expensive to manufacture
I fervently pray that Fuji not go full frame with the S3
bought the S1 just over a month after its release & the S2 the month of its release ...I really think their CCD is superor & I look forward to its next iteration ...just hope it isn't FF
--
pbase & dpreview supporter
Fuji SLRT forum member since 5/2001
http://www.pbase.com/artichoke
Robert Harrington
Leading Member
I'm with Artichoke - getting back the telephoto I have now with a FF S3 would cost thousands of dollars, not to mention the extra thousands that would be added to the cost of the body itself.
If Fuji should undertake to compete with the 1Ds and 14N, how can anyone think it won't be in the same price class as those? It's a far more exclusive and smaller market. It would leave the majority of us asking: What's the real successor to the S2? because that's not it, no matter what they call it.
A feature I'd like to see is high speed flash such as what Canon has - flash capability at any shutter speed.
R.
If Fuji should undertake to compete with the 1Ds and 14N, how can anyone think it won't be in the same price class as those? It's a far more exclusive and smaller market. It would leave the majority of us asking: What's the real successor to the S2? because that's not it, no matter what they call it.
A feature I'd like to see is high speed flash such as what Canon has - flash capability at any shutter speed.
R.
John Pham
Forum Enthusiast
My only wish for the Fuji S3 is that it has a removable upgradable CCD, so we dont keep buying another body and another body every couple years.
Joseph Larson
Well-known member
Could be, but I doubt it.
Off course
I have to say, I can't understand this kind of logic. With a FF camera, if you like the tighter view of the 1.5 magnification........JUST CROP!!! That's what the smaller size chip is effectively doing to your lenses designed to cover FF.
That being said, I think we desperately need both FF and APS sized chips from various makers. As a happy S2 owner who was very tempted by the Kodak 14n ( until I tested the camera), I would love the S3 to be Full-Frame. Yet, I would hope they would continue to make an upgraded APS sized chip camera also (maybe an S2n), to fulfill different, perhaps fast action, and lower cost needs.
I envision multiple sized chip formats stuffed into traditional 35mm sized cameras, as eventually becoming the norm (like has happened in the Canon line). I don't think this is just a temporary marketing fluke, APS sized chips won't go away anytime soon. Just like we have had 35mm and 6x6cm film formats to meet different needs and tastes, so too I see APS-sized-chip formats (satisfying the imaging needs that were considered "35mm") peacefully co-existing with FF 24x36mm sized chip formats (satisfying the imaging needs of "medium format"). That leaves the expensive 16/22MP expensive digital backs and scanning backs fulfilling the larger format needs.
Bottom line will be competition for the prestigeous "pro" market. Canon has established the 1Ds as being the highest resolution self contained digital camera on the market (With all of the problems cited by reviewers, the Kodak 14n doesn't measure up). And it's been out for about a year now. Manny traditional medium format shooters have ditched their medium format gear for this camera. As a Medium and Large format shooter with a fair amount of Nikon glass, I am hoping that Nikon and Fuji (and even Kodak) see the light of the future, and provide us with models that successfully compete with this camera (or do better than). Ironically Canon was caught flatfooted when Nikon came out with the original D1, but it's now Canon who has the edge. Hopefully Nikon with their D2H, and maybe a D2X will reasert their marketing position. This coupled with Fuji producing another great camera(s) with their own inovative chips, would be very nice.
The other question that begs for an answer.........why doesn't Fuji make some of those legondary lenses they used to make (and still do for their medium format camera), but this time for the S1/S2/S3/S4 in a Nikon mount ?????
Or better still, why does't Fuji buy Nikon, to give Nikon more capital and give Fuji Nikon's expertise and prestige. We all know that traditional film markets aren't getting any bigger. And though Fuji has done a lot of things right in this new digital age, they could probably benefit by shoring up their corporate muscle to compete with the other heavy weights ....Kodak, Canon, Sony, etc.
Joseph
why do you pay $4500 for the FF then can crop it? further more, after cropping your 10MP camera has about 6MP left, thats obviously poorer resolution than a true 10MP APS size sensor camera... i'd pay for a $2000 camera and a $1000 12-24 rather than a $4500 FF camera at the same MP...
Mr Majestyk
Veteran Member
Firstly those cameras are first gen FF, prices will tumble. Secondly why can't Fuji offer more than one DSLR? I am someone who wants both ultrawide angle and telephoto. I would happily carry around a 1Ds for my landscape and normal photography and a 300D for my wildlife photography.
If Fuji can offer a FF sensor that is very competitive with Canon and Kodak, then they should, FF is not a niche market due to it's sensor size but due to it's price at the moment. If Fuji could offer a FF sensor in a camera for say $4000 then it would garner a lot of interest. However, what body is it designed on. It would have to be based on an F100 body at minimum to be taken seriously. Kodak's 14n is a joke at $5000 being based on an N80. At least with Canon the 1D(s) are fully pro tanks. Fuji unfortunately is tied to Nikon and there's not a lot of room to move and I assume they will never be able to do their own bodies. Too bad they didn't do a deal with Canon.
Fuji could still offer a 1.5x crop sensor DSLR for ~ $1500-$1600 that competes with Canon 10D. However, S3 will need to be very good as the 10D's successor will be out within 12 months. For me
I'd be wanting 8MP and a dynamic range of 7-8 stops, 1/250 XSync, 4fps 10 frames as base specs. Body would have to be a lot better than than N80 too.
ricardo franca
Leading Member
this comparison someone posted on another thread will remind you of something important enough...when did you last looked through a film slr vfinder?
last week i tried the E-1 and the view was a definite NO! i want FF or nothing.
"The viewfinder magnifications which are on the photozone side give
a wrong impression, they can not be compared among each other.
The cropping factor has to be taken into account.
Now I have calculated the comparable magnification in a way
that I multiplied the magnification by the CCD width divided by 36.
Example: Oly E-1 0.96*17.3/36=0.46
This is far smaller than for analog SLR's.
I have done that with all cameras and have listed them below":
35MM FILM:
Nikon F5_ 0,75
Contax RX 0,80
FULL FRAME:
Kodak DCS-14n_ 0,80
Canon 1Ds_ 0,72
APS-SIZE:
Pentax *istD_ 0,62
Canon 1D_ 0,57
Canon 10D_ 0,55
Nikon D2h 0,55
Nikon D1x/D1h_ 0,52
Nikon D100_ 0,52
Fuji S2 Pro 0,51
Canon 300D_ 0,50
Olympus E-1_ 0,46
Sigma SD9_ 0,44
--
ricardo frança
Robert Harrington
Leading Member
You don't understand? Look at it this way: If you buy a FF S3 and get the 1.5 factor back by cropping, you have thrown away the extra pixels you got with FF and for which you paid a bundle.
In other words, what you gain over an S2 is: nothing.
You might as well recommend converting an MF negative to 35mm with a pair of scissors.
Sounds silly, doesn't it? Well, your "JUST CROP!!!" recommendation is just as silly.
If you can't understand this, you have a serious problem with logic.
Robert
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