S2 TTL--it's not that simple!

[The'(Teh) Tran]

Hi all,

Lately, I reading that more and people are seeing a similar 'under-expose issue'. Sean, Myself and few others.

I have put together some samples here at Pbase. Please take a look.
http://www.pbase.com/thetran/s2exposure_comparisons .

I think it's not neccessarily that S2 TTL is bad but rather the way TTL works is much more complex than what I had in mind. It's not just about measuring the amount of Light-Thru-the-Lens and then the make adjustment accordingly in the camera. Why I say that? In the manual, page 60, it seemed that the manual is saying ONLY Manual and Spot-metering will use TTL operation. I've always thought of 'manual' means user has to set everything. I don't think it's the case here. It seemed that if you set the camera to Manual, it will set the flash to TTL and so TTL is done by the flash. In other words, adjust the flash output accordingly. This lead me to beleive that there are two indendent 'TTL' systems working together--The (SB80) flash's and camera's. When the camera meter is set to others (Matrix and Center-weigh), different metering systems are used depending on the combination of lens type or/and with which flash. In Matrix and CW, user can't really control what meter systems s/he wants. I guess if you want full control, then manual setting is what you need. Do I make any sense here or do I sound confused about the this part of the manual? Please confirm if you think that is what the manual means.

I also notice that (at least in my case) when the SB80DX is attached to the camera, the exposure almost always right on. When I attempt to use the SB80 w/ SU-4 wireless adaptor is where I most get consistently underexposed shots. This can be attributed to the S2 'funkie' way of using the internal flash to trigger the SB80. This is another variable to this 'underexpose issue' for me. I am planning to do more tests to get a better understanding of the S2 ways of metering. I you have any suggestions how to better test exposure, please advice.

Thanks in advance for all inputs,
The'

--
'To acheive immortality, share your knowledge'

 

[Thom Hogan]

I have put together some samples here at Pbase. Please take a look.
http://www.pbase.com/thetran/s2exposure_comparisons .

All of your images have an awful lot of white in them. Remember that meters want to make everything middle gray. They see white, they're going to try to make it gray. Guess what? That's the same thing as underexposure.

In
the manual, page 60, it seemed that the manual is saying ONLY
Manual and Spot-metering will use TTL operation.

Read more closely. TTL comes in a couple of flavors: balanced fill-flash and standard. If you put the camera in Manual exposure mode or spot metering, the camera will use Standard TTL. In the other modes, the default is balanced fill-flash.

This
lead me to beleive that there are two indendent 'TTL' systems
working together--The (SB80) flash's and camera's.

Nope. Only one: the camera's. Ever. TTL is both measured by and calculated by the camera only. All the flash does is respond to on/off requests from the camera in TTL modes.

When the
camera meter is set to others (Matrix and Center-weigh), different
metering systems are used depending on the combination of lens type
or/and with which flash.

Sigh. We've gone through this many, many times. Once more: there are TWO exposures going on with every flash shot: (1) the ambient (background) exposure, which is controlled by the camera's regular meter and exposure modes; and (2) the flash exposure, which is controlled by a separate array of TTL flash sensors.

In Matrix and CW, user can't really
control what meter systems s/he wants.

??? What are you referring to? You can't change the type of TTL being done (balanced-fill flash or Standard TTL) with the INTERNAL flash. For the external flash, press the flash's mode button. A TTL+MATRIX is balanced fill-flash, a TTL only is Standard TTL.

I guess if you want full
control, then manual setting is what you need. Do I make any sense
here or do I sound confused about the this part of the manual?

Sorry to say that you've gotten confused somewhere along the line. While I generally don't promote directly, you seem to be a candidate for my Nikon Flash Guide. Granted, Nikon's documentation can be quite confusing, but you need a lot of help to get back on track.

I also notice that (at least in my case) when the SB80DX is
attached to the camera, the exposure almost always right on. When
I attempt to use the SB80 w/ SU-4 wireless adaptor is where I most
get consistently underexposed shots. This can be attributed to the
S2 'funkie' way of using the internal flash to trigger the SB80.

Not necessarily. You need to learn how the equipment works. First, you actually don't need the SU-4 to use the SB-80DX wirelessly--you're making it more complicated than you have to. Second, the remote flash is ONLY going to do exactly what the on-camera flash does. Thus, if you're getting underexposed shots, you need to look at what the on-camera flash is doing.

--
Thom Hogan
author, Nikon Field Guide
author, Nikon Flash Guide
author, Complete Guide to the Nikon D100
author, Complete Guide to the Nikon D1, D1h, & D1x
http://www.bythom.com

 

[Peter Leyenaar]

Hi all,

Lately, I reading that more and people are seeing a similar
'under-expose issue'. Sean, Myself and few others.

I have put together some samples here at Pbase. Please take a look.
http://www.pbase.com/thetran/s2exposure_comparisons .

I think it's not neccessarily that S2 TTL is bad but rather the way
TTL works is much more complex than what I had in mind. It's not
just about measuring the amount of Light-Thru-the-Lens and then the
make adjustment accordingly in the camera. Why I say that? In
the manual, page 60, it seemed that the manual is saying ONLY
Manual and Spot-metering will use TTL operation. I've always
thought of 'manual' means user has to set everything. I don't
think it's the case here. It seemed that if you set the camera to
Manual, it will set the flash to TTL and so TTL is done by the
flash. In other words, adjust the flash output accordingly. This
lead me to beleive that there are two indendent 'TTL' systems
working together--The (SB80) flash's and camera's. When the
camera meter is set to others (Matrix and Center-weigh), different
metering systems are used depending on the combination of lens type
or/and with which flash. In Matrix and CW, user can't really
control what meter systems s/he wants. I guess if you want full
control, then manual setting is what you need. Do I make any sense
here or do I sound confused about the this part of the manual?
Please confirm if you think that is what the manual means.

I also notice that (at least in my case) when the SB80DX is
attached to the camera, the exposure almost always right on. When
I attempt to use the SB80 w/ SU-4 wireless adaptor is where I most
get consistently underexposed shots. This can be attributed to the
S2 'funkie' way of using the internal flash to trigger the SB80.
This is another variable to this 'underexpose issue' for me. I am
planning to do more tests to get a better understanding of the S2
ways of metering. I you have any suggestions how to better test
exposure, please advice.

Thanks in advance for all inputs,
The'

--
'To acheive immortality, share your knowledge'

Hi everyone, I have seen the posts regarding underexposure with TTL flash
I am using a SB50, I think it is fairly new on the market, and I get beautifull

exposed shots, I shoot mostly with the flash in bounce mode if the reflecting surfaces are light and I use the in camera flash for direct light,

OT, Tran please spell Achieve this way, not Acheive, the latter rhymes with wife , I am sharing my knowledge

Best Regards
Peter

 

[The'(Teh) Tran]

Thom, Peter,

Darn! At least, I was right about a few things:

• TTL is NOT as simple as I recalled (from a photography class I attended locally) I remembered the instructor said, 'it's just measuring lightThru-The-Lens.'
• My S2 (and possibly Sean's) are not broken. The majority of the problem is with WPR (Who Press the Release-button? )
• And last but not least, I am really confused!

That's why I bought a book on lighting yesterday from a local bookstore (no offense Thom, it's just convience) so that I can ACHIEVE a better understanding about lighting.

Appricated all your patience and inputs,
The

--
'To acheive immortality, share your knowledge'

 

[ajs2107922]

I have been doin some test reguard this and have found the lens is very important. The Mode being M or S made no diff. See my tests

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1020&message=3331667

Lately, I reading that more and people are seeing a similar
'under-expose issue'. Sean, Myself and few others.

I have put together some samples here at Pbase. Please take a look.
http://www.pbase.com/thetran/s2exposure_comparisons .

I think it's not neccessarily that S2 TTL is bad but rather the way
TTL works is much more complex than what I had in mind. It's not
just about measuring the amount of Light-Thru-the-Lens and then the
make adjustment accordingly in the camera. Why I say that? In
the manual, page 60, it seemed that the manual is saying ONLY
Manual and Spot-metering will use TTL operation. I've always
thought of 'manual' means user has to set everything. I don't
think it's the case here. It seemed that if you set the camera to
Manual, it will set the flash to TTL and so TTL is done by the
flash. In other words, adjust the flash output accordingly. This
lead me to beleive that there are two indendent 'TTL' systems
working together--The (SB80) flash's and camera's. When the
camera meter is set to others (Matrix and Center-weigh), different
metering systems are used depending on the combination of lens type
or/and with which flash. In Matrix and CW, user can't really
control what meter systems s/he wants. I guess if you want full
control, then manual setting is what you need. Do I make any sense
here or do I sound confused about the this part of the manual?
Please confirm if you think that is what the manual means.

I also notice that (at least in my case) when the SB80DX is
attached to the camera, the exposure almost always right on. When
I attempt to use the SB80 w/ SU-4 wireless adaptor is where I most
get consistently underexposed shots. This can be attributed to the
S2 'funkie' way of using the internal flash to trigger the SB80.
This is another variable to this 'underexpose issue' for me. I am
planning to do more tests to get a better understanding of the S2
ways of metering. I you have any suggestions how to better test
exposure, please advice.

Thanks in advance for all inputs,
The'

--
'To acheive immortality, share your knowledge'

 

[JoseMaza]

I'm thinking buy a D-SRL for Underwater Photography where TTL is esential, and i read every thread about TTL, D-TTL etc...

(There are no digital flases for UW photo yet).

Thanks Thom to be there . . .

 

[James Wiseman]

If you're interested in the S2 for underwater photography, make sure to check out my site. I took the S2 diving 10 days ago.



Cheers
James Wiseman
http://www.reefpix.org

I'm thinking buy a D-SRL for Underwater Photography where TTL is
esential, and i read every thread about TTL, D-TTL etc...

(There are no digital flases for UW photo yet).

Thanks Thom to be there . . .

 

[David Bilodeau]

Hi Tran,

I read you postings since a few days ago and I do not understand why you do not find out why you do not get better exposure. Either it is you or the camera ..

I get a lot better results from the S2, without any compensation, than from the S1. Still the S1 is a wonderful camera and works fine.

The S2 is not a Consumer Camera. It is a good camera and it does its job not yours. Do not expect perfect pictures from it. Get a Nikon PS 5700 instead for all automatic settings ..

With the S2 there is photography constraints unlike Consumer Camera (All blown pics) ..

Please stop complaining and/or return your S2 to Fuji for repair if you think this is the solution ..

Regards,

David

 

[Ron H]

I haven't really used the flash much on it's own indoors, so finally get around to doing some tests. First thing I noticed like my previous Fuji 6900, you really need to set up a custom white balance to get the correct colors using flash.Otherwise too redish if auto or daylight settings are used. My ttl also seems to consistently underexpose by at least a stop. I get much better results using the flash in auto and by inceasing 1 stop in auto when bounced. I am using a SB-28 flash. With the built-in flash it is still a bit underexposed when even turned up 1 EV. So it seems that My ttl exposores are also underexposing. Will have to work with auto for the moment.

Hi all,

Lately, I reading that more and people are seeing a similar
'under-expose issue'. Sean, Myself and few others.

I have put together some samples here at Pbase. Please take a look.
http://www.pbase.com/thetran/s2exposure_comparisons .

I think it's not neccessarily that S2 TTL is bad but rather the way
TTL works is much more complex than what I had in mind. It's not
just about measuring the amount of Light-Thru-the-Lens and then the
make adjustment accordingly in the camera. Why I say that? In
the manual, page 60, it seemed that the manual is saying ONLY
Manual and Spot-metering will use TTL operation. I've always
thought of 'manual' means user has to set everything. I don't
think it's the case here. It seemed that if you set the camera to
Manual, it will set the flash to TTL and so TTL is done by the
flash. In other words, adjust the flash output accordingly. This
lead me to beleive that there are two indendent 'TTL' systems
working together--The (SB80) flash's and camera's. When the
camera meter is set to others (Matrix and Center-weigh), different
metering systems are used depending on the combination of lens type
or/and with which flash. In Matrix and CW, user can't really
control what meter systems s/he wants. I guess if you want full
control, then manual setting is what you need. Do I make any sense
here or do I sound confused about the this part of the manual?
Please confirm if you think that is what the manual means.

I also notice that (at least in my case) when the SB80DX is
attached to the camera, the exposure almost always right on. When
I attempt to use the SB80 w/ SU-4 wireless adaptor is where I most
get consistently underexposed shots. This can be attributed to the
S2 'funkie' way of using the internal flash to trigger the SB80.
This is another variable to this 'underexpose issue' for me. I am
planning to do more tests to get a better understanding of the S2
ways of metering. I you have any suggestions how to better test
exposure, please advice.

Thanks in advance for all inputs,
The'

--
'To acheive immortality, share your knowledge'

 

[GMD]

I have yet to get a badly exposed flash
image from the S2 ... Havnt shot too much
only a few hundred test shots with my new
Metz 70MZ5 but both fill and standard TTL
works excellent ... Predominantly white
pics underecpose by less than half a stop
and can be fixed with curves ... but mostly
I dont have to ...

Ive done this just now for this thread ...
Ambient light from 3 halogen spots plus flash

Sample: TTL - out of camera no processingb other
than sizing

1/125 f5.6 105mm object distance 60 cm
Can not ask for more ... Auto white balance ORG,ORG,STD
the colours are perfect



This one is shot against the ceiling .. same values as above
ceiling is white ... this exposure is a little under but could
easy be fixed in PS ... still very very good from the S2



its the ceiling lamp with the 3 halogen spots ...

Could it be that the speedlights make a difference ?

I also have superb results with the 50mm and 28-70 AF-S

Havnt tried the 80-200 AF ED yet ...

good shooting
gmd

I have put together some samples here at Pbase. Please take a look.
http://www.pbase.com/thetran/s2exposure_comparisons .

All of your images have an awful lot of white in them. Remember
that meters want to make everything middle gray. They see white,
they're going to try to make it gray. Guess what? That's the same
thing as underexposure.

In
the manual, page 60, it seemed that the manual is saying ONLY
Manual and Spot-metering will use TTL operation.

Read more closely. TTL comes in a couple of flavors: balanced
fill-flash and standard. If you put the camera in Manual exposure
mode or spot metering, the camera will use Standard TTL. In the
other modes, the default is balanced fill-flash.

This
lead me to beleive that there are two indendent 'TTL' systems
working together--The (SB80) flash's and camera's.

Nope. Only one: the camera's. Ever. TTL is both measured by and
calculated by the camera only. All the flash does is respond to
on/off requests from the camera in TTL modes.

When the
camera meter is set to others (Matrix and Center-weigh), different
metering systems are used depending on the combination of lens type
or/and with which flash.

Sigh. We've gone through this many, many times. Once more: there
are TWO exposures going on with every flash shot: (1) the ambient
(background) exposure, which is controlled by the camera's regular
meter and exposure modes; and (2) the flash exposure, which is
controlled by a separate array of TTL flash sensors.

In Matrix and CW, user can't really
control what meter systems s/he wants.

??? What are you referring to? You can't change the type of TTL
being done (balanced-fill flash or Standard TTL) with the INTERNAL
flash. For the external flash, press the flash's mode button. A
TTL+MATRIX is balanced fill-flash, a TTL only is Standard TTL.

I guess if you want full
control, then manual setting is what you need. Do I make any sense
here or do I sound confused about the this part of the manual?

Sorry to say that you've gotten confused somewhere along the line.
While I generally don't promote directly, you seem to be a
candidate for my Nikon Flash Guide. Granted, Nikon's documentation
can be quite confusing, but you need a lot of help to get back on
track.

I also notice that (at least in my case) when the SB80DX is
attached to the camera, the exposure almost always right on. When
I attempt to use the SB80 w/ SU-4 wireless adaptor is where I most
get consistently underexposed shots. This can be attributed to the
S2 'funkie' way of using the internal flash to trigger the SB80.

Not necessarily. You need to learn how the equipment works. First,
you actually don't need the SU-4 to use the SB-80DX
wirelessly--you're making it more complicated than you have to.
Second, the remote flash is ONLY going to do exactly what the
on-camera flash does. Thus, if you're getting underexposed shots,
you need to look at what the on-camera flash is doing.

--
Thom Hogan
author, Nikon Field Guide
author, Nikon Flash Guide
author, Complete Guide to the Nikon D100
author, Complete Guide to the Nikon D1, D1h, & D1x
http://www.bythom.com

 

[Ron H]

I have tried different lenses as well, and get different results depending on which lens I use. Very strange. My Nikon 70-300 and 85mm seem to need very little compensation, while My Tokina 28-70 and 50mm f1.8 need at least a stop and it varies depending on whether I use auto or ttl. Not quite sure why a different lens affects it, but other people seem to be experiencing the same thing.

wrote:

I have been doin some test reguard this and have found the lens is
very important. The Mode being M or S made no diff. See my tests

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1020&message=3331667

Lately, I reading that more and people are seeing a similar
'under-expose issue'. Sean, Myself and few others.

I have put together some samples here at Pbase. Please take a look.
http://www.pbase.com/thetran/s2exposure_comparisons .

I think it's not neccessarily that S2 TTL is bad but rather the way
TTL works is much more complex than what I had in mind. It's not
just about measuring the amount of Light-Thru-the-Lens and then the
make adjustment accordingly in the camera. Why I say that? In
the manual, page 60, it seemed that the manual is saying ONLY
Manual and Spot-metering will use TTL operation. I've always
thought of 'manual' means user has to set everything. I don't
think it's the case here. It seemed that if you set the camera to
Manual, it will set the flash to TTL and so TTL is done by the
flash. In other words, adjust the flash output accordingly. This
lead me to beleive that there are two indendent 'TTL' systems
working together--The (SB80) flash's and camera's. When the
camera meter is set to others (Matrix and Center-weigh), different
metering systems are used depending on the combination of lens type
or/and with which flash. In Matrix and CW, user can't really
control what meter systems s/he wants. I guess if you want full
control, then manual setting is what you need. Do I make any sense
here or do I sound confused about the this part of the manual?
Please confirm if you think that is what the manual means.

I also notice that (at least in my case) when the SB80DX is
attached to the camera, the exposure almost always right on. When
I attempt to use the SB80 w/ SU-4 wireless adaptor is where I most
get consistently underexposed shots. This can be attributed to the
S2 'funkie' way of using the internal flash to trigger the SB80.
This is another variable to this 'underexpose issue' for me. I am
planning to do more tests to get a better understanding of the S2
ways of metering. I you have any suggestions how to better test
exposure, please advice.

Thanks in advance for all inputs,
The'

--
'To acheive immortality, share your knowledge'

 

[Dick Lau of Calgary]

James,
your pictures is just great. The color is unbeatable.

****

Cheers
James Wiseman
http://www.reefpix.org

I'm thinking buy a D-SRL for Underwater Photography where TTL is
esential, and i read every thread about TTL, D-TTL etc...

(There are no digital flases for UW photo yet).

Thanks Thom to be there . . .

--
**** Lau of Calgary
[email protected]

 

[Robin Chee]

I'm finding the same thing. Auto is super accurate, working well from at 400-1600 ISO (not tried 100-200 iso in A flash yet) ... In bounce, I dial in +1 stop. For direct, sometimes 0 or +0.5 stop. But for distances, close and far, works fine. But my color seems fine with auto white balance. Which is more than I can say for TTL.
---------------

Hi all,

Lately, I reading that more and people are seeing a similar
'under-expose issue'. Sean, Myself and few others.

I have put together some samples here at Pbase. Please take a look.
http://www.pbase.com/thetran/s2exposure_comparisons .

I think it's not neccessarily that S2 TTL is bad but rather the way
TTL works is much more complex than what I had in mind. It's not
just about measuring the amount of Light-Thru-the-Lens and then the
make adjustment accordingly in the camera. Why I say that? In
the manual, page 60, it seemed that the manual is saying ONLY
Manual and Spot-metering will use TTL operation. I've always
thought of 'manual' means user has to set everything. I don't
think it's the case here. It seemed that if you set the camera to
Manual, it will set the flash to TTL and so TTL is done by the
flash. In other words, adjust the flash output accordingly. This
lead me to beleive that there are two indendent 'TTL' systems
working together--The (SB80) flash's and camera's. When the
camera meter is set to others (Matrix and Center-weigh), different
metering systems are used depending on the combination of lens type
or/and with which flash. In Matrix and CW, user can't really
control what meter systems s/he wants. I guess if you want full
control, then manual setting is what you need. Do I make any sense
here or do I sound confused about the this part of the manual?
Please confirm if you think that is what the manual means.

I also notice that (at least in my case) when the SB80DX is
attached to the camera, the exposure almost always right on. When
I attempt to use the SB80 w/ SU-4 wireless adaptor is where I most
get consistently underexposed shots. This can be attributed to the
S2 'funkie' way of using the internal flash to trigger the SB80.
This is another variable to this 'underexpose issue' for me. I am
planning to do more tests to get a better understanding of the S2
ways of metering. I you have any suggestions how to better test
exposure, please advice.

Thanks in advance for all inputs,
The'

--
'To acheive immortality, share your knowledge'

--
Robin Chee from Singapore
http://www.rpmerleon.com (lots of dancesport action photos)

 

[jamesw]

Thanks ****!

And you thought it was hard to get a wedding party to stand still...

Cheers
James Wiseman
http://www.reefpix.org

James,
your pictures is just great. The color is unbeatable.

****