Rudeness in addressing by x name?

[synp]

I would love to
hear from other military people, U.S. and other countries, on how
you addressed people.

I served 6 years in the Israeli Army. The Israeli army has a long tradition of informality. You're called by your surname when you're in boot camp, and later either by your first name or your nickname. Some people (especially those with distinctive surnames) use their surname as a nickname. I had a colonel who was called by his last name by everyone. He was later replaced by another one who was called by his first name. It's sometimes taken to extremes. If the chief of staff meets a rank private, the private will salute, but then proceed to call him "Boogey" (there's supposed to be an interesting story about this nickname, but I don't remember it)

In non-military environments in Israel, the practice is pretty much the same - first-name basis with anyone you know, honorifics rarely used and usually only as job titles, cabinet ministers and members of parliament usually by their full names.

 

[Rieder]

As an originally English-speaking expatriate living in Spanish, French and now German speaking environments throughout my life I find the differences in the formal and familiar forms of address fascinating.

I noted how tu was used almost immediately after introduction in Madrid but usted, until friendship had blossomed, in the provinces.

How soon the Swiss proposed Du while the Germans preferred Sie almost for ever. But then the Swiss had changed a lot in the past few years. A nurse once told me of an old farmer in hospital, visited by his wife, when both were addressing each other formally as Sie.

However, the most inpenetrable of rules must be who first proposes to whom, when the form may change from formal to familiar. I once worked in a Swiss office with a young lady executive on a friendly basis but we were both on the formal Sie form. After two years I heard her address a fairly new colleague as Du and when I asked why she was still on the formal form with me and that, as a woman, it was for her to initiate the change, she responded that she had been waiting for me, as an older man, to propose it. Ah, the cultural pitfalls that lie beyond our home shores.

Best, Rieder.

 

[Papaburlo]

Here in Sweden it´s normal to use first name when adressing someone. To us (most of us that is), using someones first name is somewhat more personal and friendly. The use of surnames was abandoned a long time ago (40-50years) since it became considered a bit snobbish. Mostly people of high social status adressed eachother (and expected others to adress them) by their family name.

Regards
--
PapaB
F EightTwentyEight



http://www.pbase.com/papaburlo/my_way

 

[toughluck]

It is rude because of the patronising tone it infers and, at the same time, complete lack of personal address.

Over here, it is common to be addressed by a surname and doesn't
sound rude at all. In fact if you add "señor" or "señora"
(depending on the gender of the addressee), if becomes a sign of
respect.

Oh, it's no problem here too. Let's say someone named John Smith is adressed in the following ways:
John, could you…
Smith, could you…
Mr. Smith, could you…

They carry entirely different meanings. The one with surname only you already know. The one with just the name would be uttered by someone who knows Mr. Smith personally, and is an OK sentence. The one with "Mr." carries reservation, but also respect and politeness. This is what you describe with "señor" or "señora" address. However, as you noticed, using surname only is faux pas. You simply don't do it.

It also entails using the more formal "usted" way of
speaking, and equivalent to "thou" and "thee".

Wrong. "Thou" and "thee" are no longer used 2nd person SINGULAR. Even then, if you wanted to address someone politely, you had used 2nd person plural, that is "you" and "ye."

It was identical to Spanish "tu" vs. "vos" or French "tu" vs. "vous." This English had borrowed from Romance languages (as opposed to Germanic ones which use the 3rd person plural to address someone politely).

 

[toughluck]

And nobody likes being referred to by their surname, I'm sorry but it is rude.

Now, the point of my post: I'm a citizen of Panama, Central
America, a Spanish-speaking country and tid bits like these help
getting an insight into different cultures.

Over here, it is common to be addressed by a surname and doesn't
sound rude at all. In fact if you add "señor" or "señora"
(depending on the gender of the addressee), if becomes a sign of
respect. It also entails using the more formal "usted" way of
speaking, and equivalent to "thou" and "thee".

You call people by name when there's a degree of familiarity or
friendship.

So I'd like to ask: is it in fact rude to call people by surname in
UK, US, other English speaking countries?

Thanks in advance for your answers, as this will help me a bit to
understand other cultures.

being called "Askey." In the English-speaking world this is not
exactly a friendly way to refer to someone. On the other hand,
calling him "Mr. Askey" is perfectly polite, but in this day and
age, a bit formal. So, at least in the world of fora, probably the
best choice would be "Phil".

There is an interesting example in the new media. During the
Clinton administration, many news media referred to the President
as "Clinton". This was truly rude and demeaning, because in the US,
the holder of this office can expect to be called "President XXX".
You will note that in the present administration, no respectable
news organization refers to the current office holder as "Bush."

pegasus

 

[toughluck]

There is an interesting example in the new media. During the
Clinton administration, many news media referred to the President
as "Clinton". This was truly rude and demeaning, because in the US,
the holder of this office can expect to be called "President XXX".

Calling Clinton "President XXX" would probably be even more demeaning ;->

 

[Hariette]

I am not a Michael Jackson supporter of any sort but I find the media rude with their headlines of "Jacko" or " Jacko Wacko" (and that's coming from someone who does think MJ is weird)

--
............

 

[DavidMillier]

My girlfriend is half Finnish but grew up in England. Her mother who emigrated to England 40 years ago but who still keeps in touch with her relatives back home speaks Finnish of 40 years ago.

She finds is quite shocking how the use of the impersonal form (e.g "it" rather than "He" or "She") has supplanted the more respectful pronouns of her day.

She says young people now address each other in a way that to her ear sounds like they are referring to a thing or perhaps a dog rather than a person.

She can't get used to it and thinks it very rude.

Culture...

As an originally English-speaking expatriate living in Spanish,
French and now German speaking environments throughout my life I
find the differences in the formal and familiar forms of address
fascinating.

I noted how tu was used almost immediately after introduction in
Madrid but usted, until friendship had blossomed, in the provinces.

How soon the Swiss proposed Du while the Germans preferred Sie
almost for ever. But then the Swiss had changed a lot in the past
few years. A nurse once told me of an old farmer in hospital,
visited by his wife, when both were addressing each other formally
as Sie.

However, the most inpenetrable of rules must be who first proposes
to whom, when the form may change from formal to familiar. I once
worked in a Swiss office with a young lady executive on a friendly
basis but we were both on the formal Sie form. After two years I
heard her address a fairly new colleague as Du and when I asked why
she was still on the formal form with me and that, as a woman, it
was for her to initiate the change, she responded that she had been
waiting for me, as an older man, to propose it. Ah, the cultural
pitfalls that lie beyond our home shores.

Best, Rieder.

 

[thinkin2]

I would love to
hear from other military people, U.S. and other countries, on how
you addressed people.

I served 6 years in the Israeli Army. The Israeli army has a long
tradition of informality. You're called by your surname when
you're in boot camp, and later either by your first name or your
nickname. Some people (especially those with distinctive surnames)
use their surname as a nickname. I had a colonel who was called by
his last name by everyone. He was later replaced by another one
who was called by his first name. It's sometimes taken to
extremes. If the chief of staff meets a rank private, the private
will salute, but then proceed to call him "Boogey" (there's
supposed to be an interesting story about this nickname, but I
don't remember it)

In non-military environments in Israel, the practice is pretty much
the same - first-name basis with anyone you know, honorifics rarely
used and usually only as job titles, cabinet ministers and members
of parliament usually by their full names.

Thanks for your post, I find it very interesting. Your ways seem to be the exact opposite of ours. I think the U.S. way is intended to prevent familiarity between the ranks and thereby prevent a breakdown of the effectiveness of the command structure. Your way is exactly opposite yet I don't think anyone can question the effectiveness of the Israeli military. Cultures truly are different and I think it's good to learn about as many as we can since all of us here at dpreview come from all over the world and by learning more about each other we can better learn how to avoid accidentally insulting each other. Thanks again for your post.
Jerry

 

[bdery]

In Québec (where arguably French is purer than in France) we usually use the "tu" when among people of the same level/situation/etc. for example, if a fellow joins a hockey team, he'll be called "tu". that's familiarity. Beig part of the gang. Being introduced to someone in a party would be another good example.

The use of "vous" refers to formal meetings, meetings between people of clearly not the same age or status. Meeting your future boss would wattant the "vous", but here we expect tht is someone deems the situation important and formal enough to use "vous", both parties should use it.

So in Québec, Canada, " vous" is a sign of respect for authority, formal politeness, or prudence... "tu" is used way more often, as formal situations are not that common.

Hope it helps.
--
bdery

Québec city, Canada
Cool,pix S Q
http://community.webshots.com/user/beder12

 

[Rieder]

I found the Spanish and French nuances of when to use "tu" or "usted/vous" relatively clear, after a period of observation within different social groups. My mistake was to transpose the more laid-back Swiss conventions to the German scene - whoops, I can still induce a blush by recollecting when was subtly put in my place for using "Du" in a meeting with a rather officious manager.

It taught me to always use "Sie" unless all the signals for "Du" were green, which usually meant it had been clearly stated and even celebrated with a glass of wine. Better to be thought stuffy than have such embarrassment again. Maybe I'm just too thin-skinned.

Best, Rieder.

 

[Medic Laviña]

In the USA, it is rude to call strangers older than you by their
first name.

No matter what the age, calling strangers by their first name is impossible unless the person is no longer a stranger to you.

--
Medic
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