Re: High MP count? Bring it in

...Camera is a system, not just a sensor.
Yes! So true, it is an optical/electronic system that invariably involves compromise.

BTW thanks for your comments on flare, I'm still contemplating it. Going from air to inside the sensor means that we are eventually going to suffer the reflection from Silicon, which is pretty high, is this back reflection, then back again off of the imperfect lens coatings, the worst contributor to flare? I would think so, but don't have number to back it up. Also, is microlens ever considered for AR coating?

I am in the middle of measuring my camera's (Nikon D40) linearity and photon transfer; and would probably like to measure flare also, do you have good reading literature on how to do this?

Also, contemplating the system and MTFs, there is additional diffraction, not just from the lens, but between the microlens and the photodiode; the microlens aperture causes diffraction and this can lead to optical crosstalk unless measures are not taken to circumvent it, which could adversely affect the sensor MTF as the move to smaller pixels is contemplated.

Thanks again,
Chris
 
...Camera is a system, not just a sensor.
Yes! So true, it is an optical/electronic system that invariably involves compromise.
Human hands are not a vice, so it involves some sports ;)
BTW thanks for your comments on flare, I'm still contemplating it. Going from air to inside the sensor means that we are eventually going to suffer the reflection from Silicon, which is pretty high, is this back reflection, then back again off of the imperfect lens coatings, the worst contributor to flare? I would think so, but don't have number to back it up.
Have you read Norman Koren's article on veiling glare? I think he provided some numbers there. The interplay of a negative rear lens element with the sensor is quite different from the case when a positive element faces the sensor.

Making flare measurements, http://www.optics.arizona.edu/optomech/Spr09/523L/523L_Final%20Report_A.Czajkowski.pdf
Also, is microlens ever considered for AR coating?
Oh yes. See for example, US20070200056

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http://www.libraw.org/
 
And not according to this thread by GordonBGood

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1036&message=37015135

Besides, even if it's true for ISO 80 and 100 (in rare cases), you are stuck with 14-bit in all situations and all ISOs. K-5 ISO 6400 files are 7 MB larger than Nex-7, despite K-5 being a lower megapixel camera.

Also note, the pixels on 24 MP sensor are even smaller than the 16 MP sensor, so the probability that you would notice any difference even at ISO 80/50 is nill.
 
I'm not sure what that has to do with the OP -- basically it's a distraction. Nonetheless, as it seems to be an issue of credibility:

Wasn't the answer to D300 already in the post? The less read noise in D300's 14-bit RAW format is not due to 14-bit RAW, but due to reading out the sensor more slowly that allows it to read it more accurately.
Silly Nikon, they should have just slowed the speed of the data coming off the sensor, then they could have had smaller file sizes and the buffer could have held more. What were they thinking?
This isn't my speculation, it comes from a credible source, Emil Martine, Professor of Physics at the University of Chicago
No, not your speculation, someone else speculated and you had nothing better to do than read a bunch of technical junk that has no relevance to practical photography.
Your credibility next to his zero
I couldn't care less what you (or Emil for that matter) think.
 
This isn't my speculation, it comes from a credible source, Emil Martine, Professor of Physics at the University of Chicago
No, not your speculation, someone else speculated and you had nothing better to do than read a bunch of technical junk that has no relevance to practical photography.
The slightly (tiny) lower noise in D300s 14-bit RAW has nothing to do with 14-bit. It's a side effect of reading the sensor data at lower speed.
I couldn't care less what you (or Emil for that matter) think.
Nor do I care about yours. This is Nex forum. What are you doing here now with your D300 crap again?
 
Speaking of a system, we need to account for many factors. For example, the larger is the number of microlenses the harder it is to control flare, digital vignetting, corner performance. All the taking lens aberrations play against increased sensor densities too. Shake and motion blur are more prominent. Net result - MTF is decreased. The more data is to be moved the hotter electronics usually gets. With any slight sloppiness in the design or battery performance degradation ugly heat noise spots occur on the images, easy to see. The system must be balanced, a good CAT diesel kills a beetle nearly instantly.
This "balance" is shifting all the time. Back when 6 MP was standard, people were claiming 10 MP is too much. When 12 MP was standard, people claimed 16 MP is too much.

We are nowhere even close to being done with MP race. In 5 years, 24 MP would like like joke.
 
Iliah: All the taking lens aberrations play against increased sensor densities too. Shake and motion blur are more prominent.

These words misleadingly imply that higher-megapixel sensor images are going to "show more blur and shake" than lower-megapixel sensor images when all images are shown at the same display size .

If shake and motion blur cause a line that "should" be imaged by a perfect optical system at, say, 100 micrometers width at the sensor, to instead spread out to a fuzzy-at-the-edges 200 micrometer width line, then sensors with pixels at 10 micrometer spacing are going to render the line with about the same 100-micrometer-added-blurred-width-due-to-motion as a sensor with 5 micrometer width pixels.

Your inconsistent interest in precise discourse tells me that you are going to respond to this (if at all) with vague and dismissive words, rather than get out your numbers and explain how the 5 micrometer pixel pitch sensor would show significantly more of the 100-micrometer line motion blur, in a given display size image, than the 10 micrometer pitch sensor.

Or perhaps you meant us to understand that lens aberrations "playing" against increased sensor densities merely meant us to understand that pixel densities "affect" rendering of lens aberrations, without you meaning to imply that the higher densities "negatively affect" the rendering? Or perhaps when you said blur "is more prominent", you meant us to understand that blurs are more prominent when a 24 megapixel image is viewed is viewed at twice the height and width of a 6 megapixel image (as is easy to do when looking at side-by-side images each "displayed at 1:1/100% crop size)?

My point is not to argue with you for argument's sake, but rather to discourage publicity of the notion that higher-resolution sensors doom your motion-blurred pictures to look blurrier at a given display size.

It is further carelessly broad to write that "all lens aberrations", when displayed at a given print size, are more problematically rendered by higher resolution sensors. Yes, for example some lens flaws such as lateral chromatic aberration (color fringes) would be rendered more precisely (hence in many cases more problematically) by a higher resolution sensor.

But certainly lens aberrations that lead to plain old fuzzy image rendering (such as curvature of field in a otherwise perfectly corrected lens) will not produce a softer look with a higher resolution sensor. Nor of course will gross geometric distortion be rendered differently by a higher-resolution sensor.

In our example above, suppose the blur described was caused not by camera or subject motion, but by lens curvature of field. Once again the 10-micrometer pitch sensor will show the 200 micrometer width line as a line with at least traces of its width varying between 200 and 210 micrometers. The 5-micrometer pitch sensor will not be showing any traces of the line wider than 205 micrometers, hardly an example of the smaller-pixel sensor showing a fine detail as more bloated by the lens aberration.

My point is not that any given higher-resolution sensor will be overall better than any lower-resolution sensor, or that anyone should want higher or lower megapixels. There are so many factors that could make one or the other sensor better for a given user. But it is unreasonably confusing to people considering what kind of sensor they might want, to write that at a given display size, higher-resolution sensors inherently exaggerate every lens problem, or to write that they exaggerate motion blur.

You pointed out plenty of other interesting and important reasons why it gets harder and harder to make a great sensor with ever-smaller pixels. But you also threw a couple of smaller-pixel problems into your laundry list that didn't belong there.



 
The slightly (tiny) lower noise
About a 1/3 of a stop.
in D300s 14-bit RAW has nothing to do with 14-bit. It's a side effect of reading the sensor data at lower speed.
That's your speculation, and it wouldn't explain how it works on the D3. As I asked before, why does Nikon use 14 bits if it doesn't serve a purpose? They could have just had a slower mode for higher quality 12 bit files, but apparently your engineer source "knows" something their engineers didn't, or they were just crippling the camera for marketing reasons.
This is Nex forum. What are you doing here now with your D300 crap again?
How funny, you are asking why I reply to your thread where you brought up the D300 and specifically called me out. You're obviously confused.
 
This is Nex forum. What are you doing here now with your D300 crap again?

How funny, you are asking why I reply to your thread where you brought up the D300 and specifically called me out. You're obviously confused.
I did not until you responded to my post and posted your D300 crap again What are you doing here? It's Nex forum.
That's your speculation, and it wouldn't explain how it works on the D3.
D3 has larger pixels, much larger pixels, than D300. If you read the link that I posted, you would have seen that D3 would benefit for 13-bits (but not more than that).
As I asked before, why does Nikon use 14 bits if it doesn't serve a purpose?
Marketing. Canon does it, so does Nikon.
They could have just had a slower mode for higher quality 12 bit files, but apparently your engineer source "knows" something their engineers didn't, or they were just crippling the camera for marketing reasons.
Exactly. 14-bit is nothing more than marketing.
 
And not according to this thread by GordonBGood ...
Once again you are ignoring my question have you ever in your life post-processed a single 14-bit RAW file or you just keep picking bits and pieces of what you read around the Web?

Wait, never mind, you just answered it.
Yes I have, but the WTF does it matter? You are going to dismiss it, just like you dismissed DPR review

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sonydslra580/page7.asp

"The A580 captures its image information in 12 bit RAW files vs the Nikon D7000's 14 bit. In theory this means the Sony records less shadow detail but in practice, when playing with these Raw files, we could not notice any difference."
 
The slightly (tiny) lower noise
About a 1/3 of a stop.
It's pretty simple. All you have to do is take that 14-bit photo with D300 that you posted, convert it into 12-bit RAW. If you still see that 1/3 difference, then obviously it's the extra 2 bit that is responsible for the 1/3 stop. If not, it's lower read noise due to reading the sensor data more slowly.
 
This is Nex forum. What are you doing here now with your D300 crap again?

How funny, you are asking why I reply to your thread where you brought up the D300 and specifically called me out. You're obviously confused.
I did not until you responded to my post and posted your D300 crap again
No, not only did you post again, you even started a thread about it. BTW, "D300 crap" betrays a pathetic, fanboy attitude.
What are you doing here?
You invited me, don't you remember? Read your own OP. It appears that you want a free pass to be argumentative without having a reply? Priceless.
It's Nex forum.
Now you are the forum police? A "policeman" who makes his own laws by going completely OT. You should have posted your thread at the forum that deals with the D300, call the camera "crap" there while you're at it, something I didn't do here with the NEX cameras, then you would be a full-fledged troll.
 
The slightly (tiny) lower noise
About a 1/3 of a stop.
It's pretty simple. All you have to do is take that 14-bit photo with D300 that you posted, convert it into 12-bit RAW. If you still see that 1/3 difference, then obviously it's the extra 2 bit that is responsible for the 1/3 stop. If not, it's lower read noise due to reading the sensor data more slowly.
How do you know, and how would you "convert" a 14 bit NEF file into a 12 bit NEF file? Of course, you can see the difference in an 8 bit JPEG file, so I guess 8 bits would have been enough.
 
BTW, "D300 crap" betrays a pathetic, fanboy attitude.
This is the same clown who for several weeks trolled A77 threads, proclaimed his D300 to be pro camera because Nikon has 600 F4 lens (even though he doesn't have that lens),
What are you doing here?
You invited me, don't you remember? Read your own OP.
No, I did not moron. You responded to my post just when that thread was about to reach 150 posts. I did not invite you to this forum. You invited yourself here. WTF are you doing here when you said you have no interest in Nex and the 24 MP sensor?
It's Nex forum.
Now you are the forum police?
Go back to Nikon hole. This isn't even A850 forum, so you don't even have that exuse (I own A850). You are tired of "Sony fanboys" (so you say) but like a puppy dog you followed me here with your D300 crap.

No one cares about your D300 and your 600 F4 lens (that you don't even own).
 
What are you doing here?
You invited me, don't you remember? Read your own OP.
No, I did not moron. You responded to my post just when that thread was about to reach 150 posts.
You did more to push the thread to 150 than I did, you posted 9 times there whereas I posted 3 times; and your 9 posts were probably all argumentative whereas only one of mine was. Then you resurrected the argument as a separate thread, because (as I said before) you are argumentative. I should say an argumentative SOB (hey, if you can post WTF, then I can say what I think of you too).
I did not invite you to this forum. You invited yourself here.
I can go where I want, unless I'm banned.
WTF are you doing here when you said you have no interest in Nex and the 24 MP sensor?
The sensor is interesting, and that was what the previous thread was about.
It's Nex forum.
Now you are the forum police?
Go back to Nikon hole. This isn't even A850 forum, so you don't even have that exuse (I own A850). You are tired of "Sony fanboys" (so you say) but like a puppy dog you followed me here with your D300 crap.
No, I was reading the thread, you were there with your crap (6% of all the posts in that thread).
No one cares about your D300 and your 600 F4 lens (that you don't even own).
Talk about beating a dead horse, you really are a piece of work. Not only that, but you go more and more OT with every reply. Yes, I can rent a 600/4 lens for my D300, and a bunch of other telephoto primes, which are darned good reasons to keep my D300.
 
What are you doing here?
You invited me, don't you remember? Read your own OP.
No, I did not moron. You responded to my post just when that thread was about to reach 150 posts.
You did more to push the thread to 150 than I did, you posted 9 times there whereas I posted 3 times;
I m entitled to post in Nex forum, as (according to you) I am a "fanboy". You, however, said you have no interest in the 24 MP sensor and Nex. You are happy with your A850, D300, and the 600 F4 lens (that you don't have).
 

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