Raw vs Jpeg

....this is interesting, I'm surprised we've never seen this debate
here before. If anyone did a search, I'm sure they would find there
has never been a peep about it before.
Now now, no need for sarcasm. But funny anyway :-)

--
John Bean [BST/GMT+1] ('British Stupid Time')

PAW 2007 Week 28:
http://waterfoot.smugmug.com/gallery/2321711/2/173247201/Large



Index page: http://waterfoot.smugmug.com
Latest walkabout (21 March 2007):
http://waterfoot.smugmug.com/gallery/2641073
 
If we didnt have constant posts about the same things, this entire forum would only get 4 posts a week.
....this is interesting, I'm surprised we've never seen this debate
here before. If anyone did a search, I'm sure they would find there
has never been a peep about it before.
--
'This is more serious than I thought.....but it is still fun!
http://www.pbase.com/rupertdog Take a look- It's Free!
--
Steve
Pixel peepers miss the big picture.
http://www.pbase.com/steve_jacob
 
JPG is OK for low dynamic range shots, but throw some harsh lighting and deep shadows together and RAW is the only way. I had a play with Photomatix in this thread http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1036&message=23923319 but actually it's fairly easy to have Silkypix setup so as to almost get it this good by itself every time with no tweaking for each shot apart from exposure . The top shot you can take as the JPG, the bottom is the same shot in RAW after conversion
 
I start a batch and
go watch TV.
If you batch process, what is the advantage of using RAW? I thought the point was to tweak every picture individually. Since you will eventually produce a JPEG with your RAW file, I fail to see what you gain by working this way.

--
bdery

Québec city, Canada
C A N O N S 2
C O O L P I X S Q
http://s108.photobucket.com/albums/n13/bdery/
 
Unless you have batch-processing you end
up converting images one by one. This is a massive waste of time. So
if you need to use RAWs to get the advantage you need to go all the
way. Lightroom + Photoshop CS3 are around $1000 (unless you make use
of promotions and educational discounts). If you go pricewise lower
end you might want to consider ACEsee Pro 2.0 (I guess it will sell
for around $200, but you'd still need a image editor).
Paint Shop Pro X, $60 with $60 rebate
(good deal just before PSP XI came out, widely available, discussed on the
retouching forum)
SilkyPix 3.0, roughly $135
(depending on how your local currency is doing vs. the Yen)

Even without rebates, a first-tier raw processor with a fast batch mode and a very capable editor for under $200. If you don't like SilkyPix you can substitute Bibble for about the same price.

I love the results I see every day from Adobe software, but you can get 80+% of the power for 20% or less of the price.

--Brett
 
I really tried hard to find the advantage of raw. But what I found was so little that I do not bother any longer with that. I think the K10 jpegs are just fine. I only use raw when I do low light shooting. And to be honest, even then I am mostly using the (parallel) jegs because I find it very anoying to process the raws.

The only thing you have to watch is your white balance. I you are using jpegs and the WB is off - you lost.

If you like to fiddle with your computer use raw, if you like to take pictures use jpeg.
 
If you batch process, what is the advantage of using RAW? I thought
the point was to tweak every picture individually. Since you will
eventually produce a JPEG with your RAW file, I fail to see what you
gain by working this way.
When I processed raw files one by one, I would load a raw file (which took some time); make a few simple changes (which took very little time); and then save to JPG or TIFF-16 (which took a good bit of time). Of my total time using the raw converter, 80% was waiting for files to load or save. Not very efficient!

With SilkyPix 3.0, I load a folder of raw files. Loading is very quick because it loads #2 while you are working on #1, and so forth. I cycle through them quickly. When a non-keeper comes up, a single keystroke marks it for deletion. When a keeper comes up, I make my changes and mark it for developing. It shows me each change as I make it, just like an editor would, But it saves only the changes; that is, it saves "increase exposure by EV1.0" rather than saving 9 megs of modified image. You make and it automatically saves a separate set of changes for each image, not one set for all.

After I have zipped through the images, I delete all of the file marked for deletion with a single command. Then, and this is the key point, I tell it to batch develop all files previously marked for developing. SilkyPix automatically loads each raw file, makes the individually specific changes it has saved, and writes a JPG or TIFF-16 file. While it is doing this you can step away from the computer, have dinner, take more pictures, etc.; or you can put in low-priority mode and do other things on the computer while SilkyPix chugs away in the background.

The conversion itself may not be that much faster, but it is much faster in effect because you are not forced to twiddle your thumbs while the converter loads and saves each individual file. And it saves your changes even after final developing, so that I can load a raw file I converted four months ago, and still see all the changes I made, edit them, redevelop, and so forth.

I've done it both ways, and SilkyPix is much faster. Others on this forum have told me that other first-tier raw converters work the same way.

--Brett
 
If you like to fiddle with your computer use raw, if you like to take
pictures use jpeg.
What a profoundly blinkered summary. Please do consider that just because you failed to see any photographic advantage to using raw capture that advantages do in fact exist, and please don't presume that those who chose to use raw do it because they "like to fiddle with their computer".

Bigoted nonsense.

--
John Bean [BST/GMT+1] ('British Stupid Time')

PAW 2007 Week 28:
http://waterfoot.smugmug.com/gallery/2321711/2/173247201/Large



Index page: http://waterfoot.smugmug.com
Latest walkabout (21 March 2007):
http://waterfoot.smugmug.com/gallery/2641073
 
5) You want to make black and white prints. Black and white conversion from color .jpgs is very limiting and delicate. Direct desaturation or greyscale conversion is flat and dull. Stretch the contrast a bit and a .jpg falls apart. Even unaggressive contrast curves can quickly destroy smooth tonality and generate ugly posterization. 16bit formats are massively more robust. Much more flexibility and reliability in black and white with RAW.

--
http://viewfromthisside.smugmug.com
 
Since you don't like to pp, why don't you just set your camera to shoot in jpeg only? Then you won't have to do any conversion or deleting raw images in your camera.
Jo
 
I start a batch and
go watch TV.
If you batch process, what is the advantage of using RAW? I thought
the point was to tweak every picture individually. Since you will
eventually produce a JPEG with your RAW file, I fail to see what you
gain by working this way.
As Brett said, I go through each photo, many get the same treatment, some get individual treatment, mark the ones that I want processed then when I'm done going through the folder click on the batch process button and let it process all the photos that I marked to be processed.

And as I said in the previous post, for those files that all get the same treatment, I save the settings into what's call a cloak room, there are 4 separate cloak rooms, then when I come to the next photo that was taken under the same conditions as a previous one (needs the same tweak) then I paste the settings from that cloak room. this part of the process makes it very fast to go through a large folder of photos.

also note that RAW processing programs like SilkyPix record you changes (exposure, color, white-balance, ect . . ) to a separate file and don't make any changes to your RAW file. This means that later you can reprocess a photo with different settings for different effects or feel.

So what you get is more flexibility, the ability to change white balance or any other setting that you may have forgot to set on your camera when you were out shooting. like when you are outside shooting in the sun then go into a building or into the shade and forget to change your white balance. you also get greater dynamic range from RAW, so if you slightly over expose a whole group of photos you can correct the entire group real fast.
--
bdery

Québec city, Canada
C A N O N S 2
C O O L P I X S Q
http://s108.photobucket.com/albums/n13/bdery/
--
Les
anthisphoto.smugmug.com
 
Brett,

thanks for the explanations. So the batch process in this case is more like a delayed process. Does Pentax's software allow this? I also have Photoshop Elements 2 and Photoshop 7, I don't feel like purchasing yet another program.
--
bdery

Québec city, Canada
C A N O N S 2
C O O L P I X S Q
http://s108.photobucket.com/albums/n13/bdery/
 
I shoot RAW for photos that are important to me. Otherwise, I shoot jpeg.

--
gghinfo.com
 
So the batch process in this case is
more like a delayed process. Does Pentax's software allow this? I
also have Photoshop Elements 2 and Photoshop 7, I don't feel like
purchasing yet another program.
The software which comes with Pentax DSLRs, Pentax PhotoLab (PPL), uses the SilkyPix 2.0 engine under license. It produces very good end results, but the user interface is terrible. Using PPL alone, you cannot batch process with individual settings, which as you recognize greatly limits the usefulness of raw.

I have heard claims on this forum that there is a way to batch process with individually specific changes if you use PPL together with PhotoBrowser, the Pentax image browser, which is also free with Pentax DSLRs. This is not a terribly well documented feature, if present; I did not discover it in 4-6 weeks of using PPL regularly before I switched to SilkyPix 3.0.

My understanding from this forum is that Photoshop users can download Adobe Camera Raw (ACR), a raw converter which works as a Photoshop plug-in and which allows individually specific changes in batch mode. But I don't have ACR or Photoshop, so I don't know first-hand.

--Brett
 
If you like to fiddle with your computer use raw, if you like to take
pictures use jpeg.
What a profoundly blinkered summary. Please do consider that just
because you failed to see any photographic advantage to using raw
capture that advantages do in fact exist, and please don't presume
that those who chose to use raw do it because they "like to fiddle
with their computer".

Bigoted nonsense.

--
John Bean [BST/GMT+1] ('British Stupid Time')

PAW 2007 Week 28:
http://waterfoot.smugmug.com/gallery/2321711/2/173247201/Large



Index page: http://waterfoot.smugmug.com
Latest walkabout (21 March 2007):
http://waterfoot.smugmug.com/gallery/2641073
Maybe this has all been here before.....it's all coming back to me now! LOL

'This is more serious than I thought.....but it is still fun!
http://www.pbase.com/rupertdog Take a look- It's Free!
 
Pentax Photobrowser and Photolab do a much better job to me of raw conversion than Adobe Camera Raw. I used to use ACR until I had to use the Pentax software while waiting for ACR to add K100D support. Once they did, I found that the Pentax software produced more pleasing images to me.

Of course, arguing about which raw converter is better is about like arguing about raw versus jpeg. ;)
--
Russ
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rfortson/
Even bad photography can be fun :)

 

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