Quad Bayer vs Normal, HDR, readout and dynamic range

[victorav]

I would like to see a "bobn2.mk2" return... a version with better diplomacy/ delicacy/ empathy and able to deliver his great knowledge without completely crushing the joy of m43 ownership.

I don't think he really crushed the joy. If you didn't try to insult him, he was very nice as one would expect.

If pointing out the truth crushes your joy, then that's on you.

It's the delivery, not the content.

Delivery was fine unless you refused to listen or resulted to name callings

--
Addicted To Glass
M43 equivalence: "Twice the fun with half the weight"
"You are a long time dead" -
Credit to whoever said that first and my wife for saying it to me... Make the best you can of every day!

 

[Henry Richardson]

...

It would be good to have bobn2 in such thread as he was very qualified to address accuracy but he has somehow gone missing I hope he is well

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/65824738

i also believe Bob might be banned from this particular forum, I had an email off him the other day saying he has little interest in returning here and DPR in general

Anders W used to post here years ago and he was one of the best. Kind and very patient in explaining stuff. He rarely took the bait from trollers. He was finally run off by the trolls and others who pretty much never contribute anything useful and interesting themselves. He was one of the givers, but the takers and misery merchants are still here. He occasionally returns, but I don't blame him for mostly staying away.

--
Henry Richardson
http://www.bakubo.com

 

[glassoholic]

...

It would be good to have bobn2 in such thread as he was very qualified to address accuracy but he has somehow gone missing I hope he is well

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/65824738

i also believe Bob might be banned from this particular forum, I had an email off him the other day saying he has little interest in returning here and DPR in general

Anders W used to post here years ago and he was one of the best. Kind and very patient in explaining stuff. He rarely took the bait from trollers. He was finally run off by the trolls and others who pretty much never contribute anything useful and interesting themselves. He was one of the givers, but the takers and misery merchants are still here. He occasionally returns, but I don't blame him for mostly staying away.

 

[Raist3d]

The first camera with Quad Bayer sensor was the GH5S however this used it in standard mode and this was back illuminated not stacked as the resolution was only 10.71 megapixels the sensor IMX299CJK offered an HDR mode but not single pixel mode because all the pixels in a cell have the same color

https://www.sony-semicon.co.jp/products/common/pdf/IMX299CJK_Flyer.pdf

Note that the HDR mode produces a standard resolution image in two exposures

https://www.gsmarena.com/quad_bayer_sensors_explained-news-37459.php

Overall pretty much. I just want to see the constraints for "each mode" if they exist.

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/65915725

Which means the latitude that is offered it is typically around 1-1.5 stops from your zero. So the latitude of this HDR shot is similar to your two stacked images at +1.5 -1.5 is not as strong as stacking 3 images a +3 0 -3 for example. Mostly this is used by phones that after all have tiny sensor to produce good landscape photos which are not your typical camera stacked HDR photo.

This in camera HDR mode does not replace your 3 exposure standard HDR shot but is a good option to improve a landscape shot you would not want to have an HDR look. Drones that have quad-bayers use this trick effectively.

The new IMC472-AAJK has also a quad bayer structure however it has two additional modes

Phase difference: this means each pixel can be used for auto focus without having to have specialised pixels. The benefit is cost as now you can have contrast and phase detect on the same chip

Single Pixel: this mode is used by phone to produce a high resolution image however as the bayer filter is still built for the lower resolution this is for most a marketing hype

In conclusion a quad bayer filter does not offer superior dynamic range but it does offer on sensor HDR shot and the possibility to flexibly define autofocus pixels instead of a fixed range

Smartphones have gone through this process and camera are already

At the end sensor size remains the primary driver of dynamic range and even phones have dual pixel AF (Apple iPhone) so there is not much to be gained since 2018 has not taken over the world and neither will happen in 2022 because this technology is used vast scale by OMS

In my opinion Sony cannot continue to run Exmor (front illuminated) Exmor R (back illuminated) and RS (stacked and back illuminated) forever they need to rationalise their factory and Exmor front illuminated is not a line that is releasing anything new since a few years while the other two are very busy with phones, camera, security and industrial automation.

They had most likely a choice between Exmor R and Exmor RS and the RS line with quad bayer with pixels of 1.65 microns in a 3.3 micron cell is very similar to the process used for mobile phones making this cost effective and offering some other benefits in terms of cost. The stacked line also has the benefit of faster readout so this was a no brainer otherwise they would have needed to keep the pixel count low and nobody wants a 10.7 megapixel camera for photos.

Now they can serve the entire MFT market with a single product that is going through the same large volume production of chips for mobile phones. The immediate benefit is apparent more AF points and additional options for HDR in camera with less ghosting but it is not a sudden leap forward in dynamic range or image quality. In video this can also offer 120 fps readout however this requires you to be able to process them downstream which has been historically the issue. This is why there are no 120 fps video modes as the rest of the camera can't digest them easily but another camera with better hardware might be able to

It would be good to have bobn2 in such thread as he was very qualified to address accuracy but he has somehow gone missing I hope he is well

Good point :-\

Update: Saw the link to him taking a break from dpreview. Can't blame him. I have thought at times of leaving altogether too for the same reason I left Facebook first year of the pandemic. But maybe slightly different here.

--
Raist3d/Ricardo (Photographer, software dev.)- I photograph black cats in coal mines at night...
“The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it.” - Apparently Selwyn Duke and not George Orwell

 

[Mark Ransom]

I would like to see a "bobn2.mk2" return... a version with better diplomacy/ delicacy/ empathy and able to deliver his great knowledge without completely crushing the joy of m43 ownership.

I don't think he really crushed the joy. If you didn't try to insult him, he was very nice as one would expect.

If pointing out the truth crushes your joy, then that's on you.

It's the delivery, not the content.

Delivery was fine unless you refused to listen or resulted to name callings

I only butted heads with Bob once, but it was memorable. I can't even say he was wrong, because we were discussing factors that were mathematically linked - everything he said was true. I just thought he was getting cause and effect backwards. There was absolutely no name calling involved.

Why all of the fuss about noise?

Confusing, isn't it? And wrong too - Nope. It's right. it has everything to do with the sensor. I wouldn't have said it was the aperture if it was the sensor. Suppose you had a 100mm lens on a FF sensor camera, and you pointed it at a brick wall. Say the field of view resulted in a picture...

www.dpreview.com

 

[Jonas Palm]

...

It would be good to have bobn2 in such thread as he was very qualified to address accuracy but he has somehow gone missing I hope he is well

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/65824738

i also believe Bob might be banned from this particular forum, I had an email off him the other day saying he has little interest in returning here and DPR in general

Anders W used to post here years ago and he was one of the best. Kind and very patient in explaining stuff. He rarely took the bait from trollers. He was finally run off by the trolls and others who pretty much never contribute anything useful and interesting themselves. He was one of the givers, but the takers and misery merchants are still here. He occasionally returns, but I don't blame him for mostly staying away.

Anders W was very helpful and had practical info to get the most out of or solve m43 questions. I miss his generally polite and patient input.

 

[Mark Ransom]

Anders W used to post here years ago and he was one of the best. Kind and very patient in explaining stuff. He rarely took the bait from trollers. He was finally run off by the trolls and others who pretty much never contribute anything useful and interesting themselves. He was one of the givers, but the takers and misery merchants are still here. He occasionally returns, but I don't blame him for mostly staying away.

Anders W was very helpful and had practical info to get the most out of or solve m43 questions. I miss his generally polite and patient input.

BJL.

I liked the Great Bustard as well.

The sad thing is that all of these people actually shot and liked m43s. They all just tried to dampen active misinformation.

I like Great Bustard too. I didn't realize until you said something that I hadn't seen him in a while - his last post was 4 months ago. Anybody know what happened to him?