Pseudo-live preview mode?

[Doug Warner]

I'm Baaack.. and still harping on the live preview issue. But. please, listen to this idea..

Yes, the CMOS sensor needs the shutter, and the mirror is in the way.

So, how about, as a means of composing non-eyelevel shots, include a mode (in firmware) that, at half-press, trips the shutter and copies the image to the LCD only. This image remains until the next press, or until the shot is taken.

Options:

1. Continuous preview shots as the shutter is held at half press (Yes, there will be a power consumption penalty)
2. Histogram overlay. (Get the exposure right before shooting)

3. Time lapse on change.( Shoot previews automatically, saving to flash only when a pre-set percentage of the pixels change.

Of course, there would have to be a short delay, so if the shutter was fully pressed, it would just go take the shot. Also, if it was fully-pressed immediately after the preview shot, then the image just taken would be saved.
Still, for no-compromise work, the preview mode would default to OFF.

It could be done strictly in firmware, no hardware changes needed, no compromises in normal mode.

 

[JCDoss]

So, how about, as a means of composing non-eyelevel shots, include
a mode (in firmware) that, at half-press, trips the shutter and
copies the image to the LCD only. This image remains until the
next press, or until the shot is taken.

I see very little difference between this and reviewing a normal shot on the LCD.

1. Continuous preview shots as the shutter is held at half press

Except that half-pressing does other things, like AF and metering. How's that gonna happen with the mirror up and shutter open?

2. Histogram overlay. (Get the exposure right before shooting)

Again, same as taking the shot and reviewing.

------------------------------

IIRC, Foveon claims that their new X3 sensor should be able to provide live video feeds... so perhaps we should continue to wait until they give us the answer.

Of course, none of this LCD preview means squat without a flip-swivel or removable cordless design. Sooner or later, we'll get our wish.

JCDoss--D30/BiG-ED28-135IS, 50/1.4

 

[Doug Warner]

So, how about, as a means of composing non-eyelevel shots, include
a mode (in firmware) that, at half-press, trips the shutter and
copies the image to the LCD only. This image remains until the
next press, or until the shot is taken.

I see very little difference between this and reviewing a normal
shot on the LCD.

Actually taking the shot saves the image to flash, requiring extra steps to delete the framing shots. Also, it reduces the buffer capacity, making it more likely to miss the "real" shot when it fills up. In preview mode, no space would be taken up on the flash card until full press, and at most, one image worth of buffer space would be used.

1. Continuous preview shots as the shutter is held at half press

Except that half-pressing does other things, like AF and metering.
How's that gonna happen with the mirror up and shutter open?

The mirror, shutter, exposure systems all function exactly as they do when taking regular shots. The only differece in half-press preview mode is that the images taken are sent to the LCD and video out only. I I suspect that you'd be able to get a fairly good frame rate without having to compress/write the images to CF.

2. Histogram overlay. (Get the exposure right before shooting)

Again, same as taking the shot and reviewing.

But it doesn't require wasting any space, switching to play mode, deleting the unwanted shots, etc, and it shouldn't require the extra time needed to compress the shot into a file. Just take a LCD-sized sample of the raw image an display it. If used conservatively, even the power drain should be lower than taking fully-saved test shots, since less processing is needed, and there's no writing to the flashcard.

This mode could even be used for time bracketing, where the preview (raw) images are run through the buffer in a FIFO mode, still without saving them. You point at some fast-moving event, hold the shutter until it's over, release, then save the whole series, or quickly review them from the buffer and save the one(s) that have the actual event recorded) (Doesn't one of Nikon's SLR's do this?)

Actually, instead of "live preview", I should refer to this as "remote preview", in that I almost always use it with the camera mounted in some high corner, and the video displayed on an LCD monitor.

BTW: Another option would be a pan/magnify function, so you could zoom on a section lf the scene detail to aid manual focusing. (To compensate for the resolution disadvantage of the LCD over the optical finder.)
With an IR illuminator, you could even compose and shoot in complete darkness.

 

[Steve Mills38027]

Wouldn't it be easier to just have a mirror lock-up and the option to preview with the mirror locked up?--Steve

 

[Al Goldis]

Good idea but I have some reservations. It would have to be a custom function to prevent people from mistakenly taking non-pictures. Not only that, but I think you would want to enable it via custom function and be required to hold down the playback button to get the review only.

I like your slip-on viewfinder camera idea much better (that was you, right?).

For now with the current cameras, it sounds like what you want is one of those 4" LCD TVs hooked up to the video out port. I just shoot and delete, but with the TV you don't have to re-orient the camera to see the review and then try to get it back into the same position. Maybe what you really want is LCD glasses.

I'm Baaack.. and still harping on the live preview issue. But.
please, listen to this idea..

Yes, the CMOS sensor needs the shutter, and the mirror is in the way.

So, how about, as a means of composing non-eyelevel shots, include
a mode (in firmware) that, at half-press, trips the shutter and
copies the image to the LCD only. This image remains until the
next press, or until the shot is taken.

Options:
1. Continuous preview shots as the shutter is held at half press
(Yes, there will be a power consumption penalty)
2. Histogram overlay. (Get the exposure right before shooting)
3. Time lapse on change.( Shoot previews automatically, saving to
flash only when a pre-set percentage of the pixels change.

Of course, there would have to be a short delay, so if the shutter
was fully pressed, it would just go take the shot. Also, if it was
fully-pressed immediately after the preview shot, then the image
just taken would be saved.
Still, for no-compromise work, the preview mode would default to OFF.

It could be done strictly in firmware, no hardware changes needed,
no compromises in normal mode.

 

[Larry H. Smith]

But it doesn't require wasting any space, switching to play mode,
deleting the unwanted shots, etc, and it shouldn't require the
extra time needed to compress the shot into a file. Just take a
LCD-sized sample of the raw image an display it. If used
conservatively, even the power drain should be lower than taking
fully-saved test shots, since less processing is needed, and
there's no writing to the flashcard.

My own preference ius NOT for LCD-sized preview (if you mean the on-camera LCD), ...I want a laptop screen-full. The whole point is to SEE what the finished shot is going to look like, ... not that there aren't benefits to a preview, even on a small screen, particularly a swiveling one, when the viewfinder is not an option. When I say see what it will look like, I mean as nearly to what it will look like when I start working on it in PS, ON MY COMPUTER. Since we're daydreaming here, I'm not gonna stop with some little half-donkey 2-3 inch LCD :-(

I'm after a digtal "view camera", ...because it seems like there has to be a way to do it! (Easy for me to say, since I know next-to-nothing about computer theory

Of course, none of this LCD preview means squat without a flip-swivel or > removable cordless design.

JC, I'll take such a preview (to a big screen) WITH A CORD over "squat' any day ;-)

Larry

 

[Al Goldis]

I'm after a digtal "view camera", ...because it seems like there
has to be a way to do it! (Easy for me to say, since I know

Those have been available for quite a while. It will cost you more than $20K though.

 

[Don Schultz43010]

Hi Guys:
Am I missing something or would an angle finder C not do what your asking?
Don.

I'm Baaack.. and still harping on the live preview issue. But.
please, listen to this idea..

Yes, the CMOS sensor needs the shutter, and the mirror is in the way.

So, how about, as a means of composing non-eyelevel shots, include
a mode (in firmware) that, at half-press, trips the shutter and
copies the image to the LCD only. This image remains until the
next press, or until the shot is taken.

Options:
1. Continuous preview shots as the shutter is held at half press
(Yes, there will be a power consumption penalty)
2. Histogram overlay. (Get the exposure right before shooting)
3. Time lapse on change.( Shoot previews automatically, saving to
flash only when a pre-set percentage of the pixels change.

Of course, there would have to be a short delay, so if the shutter
was fully pressed, it would just go take the shot. Also, if it was
fully-pressed immediately after the preview shot, then the image
just taken would be saved.
Still, for no-compromise work, the preview mode would default to OFF.

It could be done strictly in firmware, no hardware changes needed,
no compromises in normal mode.

 

[Laurence Bartone]

I've done quite a bit of journalism work with an E10, and I love the live preview, expecially with the tilt lcd screen. Love it. If the quality was a bit better, a bit less noise, I'd never sell it.

That said, what about the NTSC out? Anyone use it yet? I know it'll be terrible quality, but it's something for studio work, no? Probably terrible. In the meanwhile, anyone know how to keep the information on in the viewer? Turns off way too fast (about 2 seconds), and I don't move my fingers that quick!
bartone

I'm Baaack.. and still harping on the live preview issue. But.
please, listen to this idea..

Yes, the CMOS sensor needs the shutter, and the mirror is in the way.

So, how about, as a means of composing non-eyelevel shots, include
a mode (in firmware) that, at half-press, trips the shutter and
copies the image to the LCD only. This image remains until the
next press, or until the shot is taken.

Options:
1. Continuous preview shots as the shutter is held at half press
(Yes, there will be a power consumption penalty)
2. Histogram overlay. (Get the exposure right before shooting)
3. Time lapse on change.( Shoot previews automatically, saving to
flash only when a pre-set percentage of the pixels change.

Of course, there would have to be a short delay, so if the shutter
was fully pressed, it would just go take the shot. Also, if it was
fully-pressed immediately after the preview shot, then the image
just taken would be saved.
Still, for no-compromise work, the preview mode would default to OFF.

It could be done strictly in firmware, no hardware changes needed,
no compromises in normal mode.

 

[Larry H. Smith]

I'm after a digtal "view camera", ...because it seems like there
has to be a way to do it! (Easy for me to say, since I know

Those have been available for quite a while. It will cost you more
than $20K though.

I shoulda been more precise, ...I want all the functions of the rumored 1D-S AND live-preview ! (for less-than 10 grand

Larry

 

[John Davis]

What's going on here? The whole point of an SLR is its ability to provide a preview through the lens optically in a screened dark optical box. This is close to the same way a view camera provides a view on a ground glass. For a photographer there is no visualization experience better than that.

The LCD on a digital SLR is a side benefit to see the result afterwards, the same way a Polaroid proof used to provide.

I think we are seeing here two different expectations. On one hand the photographer who looks at a camera as a tool and on the other the gadget-lover who looks at a camera as a toy.

John

I'm Baaack.. and still harping on the live preview issue. But.
please, listen to this idea..

Yes, the CMOS sensor needs the shutter, and the mirror is in the way.

So, how about, as a means of composing non-eyelevel shots, include
a mode (in firmware) that, at half-press, trips the shutter and
copies the image to the LCD only. This image remains until the
next press, or until the shot is taken.

Options:
1. Continuous preview shots as the shutter is held at half press
(Yes, there will be a power consumption penalty)
2. Histogram overlay. (Get the exposure right before shooting)
3. Time lapse on change.( Shoot previews automatically, saving to
flash only when a pre-set percentage of the pixels change.

Of course, there would have to be a short delay, so if the shutter
was fully pressed, it would just go take the shot. Also, if it was
fully-pressed immediately after the preview shot, then the image
just taken would be saved.
Still, for no-compromise work, the preview mode would default to OFF.

It could be done strictly in firmware, no hardware changes needed,
no compromises in normal mode.

 

[JoeMA]

I think we are seeing here two different expectations. On one hand
the photographer who looks at a camera as a tool and on the other
the gadget-lover who looks at a camera as a toy.

John, I think that is a very harsh comment. I do macro photography. I have a tripod (Uni-Loc) that is able to get into all kinds of contortions to get close to the object of my photo - but due to the nature of using reversed lenses/focusing rails, etc. it is crucial to be able to minutely focus along that rail at 1mm at a time. My G2 has the swivel LCD preview which will allow all of this to happen more easily - if it weren't for that, I would need to crawl around in the dirt for some shots. Even though I am just beginning in macro i can see the value of some sort of angled preview and will explore an "angle finder C" as a possible alternative.

My point is there are "real' photographers who see the value here and not "gadget-lover(s) who look(s) at a camera as a toy"--Regards,JoeMA http://www.pbase.com/joema/first_macro_photos

 

[John Davis]

I would think that a right angle viewfinder adapter would be much more useful than the LCD (even a rotatable unit) and the suggested preview view would not help in focusing anyway.

John

I think we are seeing here two different expectations. On one hand
the photographer who looks at a camera as a tool and on the other
the gadget-lover who looks at a camera as a toy.

John, I think that is a very harsh comment. I do macro photography.
I have a tripod (Uni-Loc) that is able to get into all kinds of
contortions to get close to the object of my photo - but due to the
nature of using reversed lenses/focusing rails, etc. it is crucial
to be able to minutely focus along that rail at 1mm at a time. My
G2 has the swivel LCD preview which will allow all of this to
happen more easily - if it weren't for that, I would need to crawl
around in the dirt for some shots. Even though I am just beginning
in macro i can see the value of some sort of angled preview and
will explore an "angle finder C" as a possible alternative.

My point is there are "real' photographers who see the value here
and not "gadget-lover(s) who look(s) at a camera as a toy"
--
Regards,
JoeMA
http://www.pbase.com/joema/first_macro_photos

 

[Larry H. Smith]

What's going on here? The whole point of an SLR is its ability to
provide a preview through the lens optically in a screened dark
optical box. This is close to the same way a view camera provides a
view on a ground glass. For a photographer there is no
visualization experience better than that.

John,

I think this post oversimplifies. There are screened dark optical boxes, and then there are screened dark optical boxes.

Not all SLR viewfinders are equal. There are DEFINITELY visualization-experiences "better than" looking through SOME of them,with SOME lenses, at SOME apertures, using SOME eyes,etc.

The LCD on a digital SLR is a side benefit to see the result
afterwards, the same way a Polaroid proof used to provide.

I think we are seeing here two different expectations. On one hand
the photographer who looks at a camera as a tool and on the other
the gadget-lover who looks at a camera as a toy.

Digital images will ultimately be judged/ processed on a computer screren, (the best one the operator can get, quite often,) so the effects of the PS manipulation etc. can be SEEN (as nearly as possible) in the same way that it can be seen on the print that is the final goal of all the work.

This can NOT be done, under most circumstances, by looking through a viewfinder. ( Have you read the numerous posts regarding the difficulty of even FOCUSSING precisely with some of these cameras(?) ...pretty basic consideration for a "serious" photofgrapher, huh?)

We are talking about DIGITAL photography, ...and DIGITAL processing. Therefore seeing (clearly ..!) what-you-will-be-working-with, rather than just a nice "optical" view (if you can even get that!)), can only be helpful. (Otherwise we could all do our PS work using a small LCD, or a small "viewfinder' device. Do you think this idea will sell ;-) ?

I think that describing those who are aware of this as "gadget-lovers" or (by inference) "children" interested in:" toys", is a little narrow.

Why do these threads so often deteriorate inrto "if you don't think exactly like me, ...you have to be WRONG!" (or childish, or ignorant, or ...)?

Not photographers? ...because they are discussing possibilities for a BETTER "tool"?, ... GMAB!

Larry

 

[Al Goldis]

I agree. Even with all the complaints about the poor viewfinder and screen of the D30/D60, to me, focusing with an LCD is not a workable solution.

John

I think we are seeing here two different expectations. On one hand
the photographer who looks at a camera as a tool and on the other
the gadget-lover who looks at a camera as a toy.

John, I think that is a very harsh comment. I do macro photography.
I have a tripod (Uni-Loc) that is able to get into all kinds of
contortions to get close to the object of my photo - but due to the
nature of using reversed lenses/focusing rails, etc. it is crucial
to be able to minutely focus along that rail at 1mm at a time. My
G2 has the swivel LCD preview which will allow all of this to
happen more easily - if it weren't for that, I would need to crawl
around in the dirt for some shots. Even though I am just beginning
in macro i can see the value of some sort of angled preview and
will explore an "angle finder C" as a possible alternative.

My point is there are "real' photographers who see the value here
and not "gadget-lover(s) who look(s) at a camera as a toy"
--
Regards,
JoeMA
http://www.pbase.com/joema/first_macro_photos

 

[Larry H. Smith]

...is that it keeps you from ever figuring out "how".

I agree. Even with all the complaints about the poor viewfinder
and screen of the D30/D60, to me, focusing with an LCD is not a workable
solution.

We seem to be of two camps here, ...I am thinking "outside' the little LCD "box". If you have a live feed, giving you the same visual data that will be fed to your storage, printer, etc., why stop looking at it thru a tiny viewfinder, only to look at it on a tiny screen?

You won't know what it will look at "big", unless you LOOK at it "big".

Still dreaming of the live-feed laptop display. A little inconvenient to carry in the field(unless you remember all that view-camera paraphenalia), but wow(!), what a way to judge the image!

What's the diagonal on a 4X5 groundglass?... something less than 15 inches(or so) I bet!

Larry

 

[Larry H. Smith]

I would think that a right angle viewfinder adapter would be much
more useful than the LCD (even a rotatable unit)...

John,

I also have a G1. I think that a few weeks using a camera with a rotate/swing LCD will convince you that they are FAR more utilitarian than you imagine, ...or than a RA finder.

I have to admit to being very-much surprised at just how OFTEN this feature is of real use, ...I use it a LOT! There is always a "little better angle" than you can reach with your eye behind the camera, ...or that you could get from eye-level if you were willing to lie in the puddle, ...or above the fence, if you were taller, or over the crowd, or hanging off the bridge, or, or, or...

Sometimes you don't know what limitations are imposed on you untill they are removed.

Ask anyone who has one, ...I'll be amazed if they don't appreciate it ;-)

Larry

 

[Doug Warner]

What's going on here? The whole point of an SLR is its ability to
provide a preview through the lens optically in a screened dark
optical box. This is close to the same way a view camera provides a
view on a ground glass. For a photographer there is no
visualization experience better than that.

The LCD on a digital SLR is a side benefit to see the result
afterwards, the same way a Polaroid proof used to provide.

No one is saying the optical finder is inferior. It is, however, limiting, in that you must have your head positioned behind it to see through it.

My current suggestion, for a "remote preview" mode is to allow us to compose a shot when the camera is tucked up in the corner of a small room, on a pole, over the heads of a crowd, being held down inside a pipe / tank, etc. Not all photography is done from eye level.

Electronic preview/remote view is better than hold, point, shoot & hope in situations where you can't get your eye against the finder.

Why not use the camera's electronics in this situation, rather than have it sit idle when compossing the shot.

Also, the idea of displaying the previews on a laptop is interesting. Rather than NTSC out, how about USB digital out. With appropriate software on a laptop, or even a dedicated USB interfaced LCD montor / remote control unit, you could get an excellent big-screen view without having to be behind the camera. One connector, full remote control and viewing. Best of all, it could still be done strictly in firmware, and if the interface protocol were standardized, we could use the device on any digicam that supported it.

 

[Doug Warner]

Wouldn't it be easier to just have a mirror lock-up and the option
to preview with the mirror locked up?

Can't be done with Canon's CMOS sensor. The shutter must be closed to initialize the sensor prior to the shot.

 

[Doug Warner]

My own preference ius NOT for LCD-sized preview (if you mean the
on-camera LCD), ...I want a laptop screen-full. The whole point is
to SEE what the finished shot is going to look like, ... not that
there aren't benefits to a preview, even on a small screen,
particularly a swiveling one, when the viewfinder is not an option.
When I say see what it will look like, I mean as nearly to what it
will look like when I start working on it in PS, ON MY COMPUTER.
Since we're daydreaming here, I'm not gonna stop with some little
half-donkey 2-3 inch LCD :-(

True, and with the aim of keeping this a firmware-only mod, the best bet might be to export the image via a USB interface. Make it a standard, add bi-directional capability for remote control, and then you could use the laptop or a dedicated folding LCD/control box.. Better yet, a head-mounted display (they're up to XGA res and very small) and a hand-held shutter control. This could be just the thing for skydiving shots.