Primes on 14n (red blob)

[andrea buso]

I did a walk arond the block and took about 30 frames in different light condition and with scenes of different contrast. I had the 50mm 1.8 and I forgot of putting the lens hood,never mind. The sky was pretty overcast in NY today. So was a good test for bad light condition. I have to say that in general everything went well. I shot mostly in automatic and in Af doing point and shot and rarely an exposure compensation. I did not spend more than 5sec for composition. I live down town NY therefore I had plenties of bricks and iron gates and grills, carton boxes at my disposal. LOL

I also had plenty of different shade of colors. I shot in raw, of course, and in automatic white balance, wich I swithced and fine tuned on the raw convereters later.

The shot at 80 iso were outstanding the detail is similar at a 6 by 7 film drum scanned (maybe not, but pretty close). Colors were nice and the noise on the darkest object in the shade was good. Almost as good as a 10D at 100 iso, which means almost no noise at all. In pratic if I print even very larg that noise wont be visible at naked eye.

In some photos was possible reading some tiny text on carton boxes few meters away, or a smal badge on a yellow cab 4/5 meters away.

At 200 iso thing changes of course, the noise on the dark and underexposed objects became visible at 100% magnification, but it would not be more than on MF 6 by7 film at the same ISO. It is printable safety on a magazine spread or catalogue and it is pretty manageable with Neat Image. On the lightened areas there is a sort of super fine grain similar at an 100 iso MF film.

Probably because of the faster shutter speed at 200 iso the pics had more contrast and of course they were sharper. colors changed a bit and became more saturated than 80 iso.

I had in 1 occasion a very light almost invisible magenta blob while shooting at an airliner flying far away above me. since the exposure was in auto the aperture went at f11 and that was when the red blob showed up, but it was almost invisible and soft edged. It was just over the airplain do. LOL. The shot was 1 stop under exposed, because of the sky, once you compensate, the magenta blob would disappear.

I also made some shots inside the Chelsea market, wich is a place lighten by those gas light bulbs and colorfull neon lights, and there was a bit of magenta halo on the overexposed lightings, but I think It would had been the same even shooting with a Canon, maybe a little less, still it is something that if you do not like it , then you need Photoshop, even with a Canon. In any case, if I was shooting film under that lightings would had been much worst.

Of course these are very simple observations and I was shooting in casual style and I call them as I see.

I'm sorry if I do not post any images, I eventually do when I do some serious work with the camera.

Andrea.

Hi Bart,
i did some normal testing with a 50mm 1.8 and the red blop it
punctually show up as soon you set you lens at f8. It will be right
there.
But also at wide open or around f4, it shoved up on soft back light
photos against a windows. It is different blob. It is much wider
and softer, but still an accident ready to happend. You just change
the angle of the camera and it goes away, but it is hard to tell
from the camera display if it is there or not because in this case
it is very soft edged. It will probably show up right in front of a
model facesometimes,I'm sure. LOL

Not really comfortable thing, If I might say.
Ciao. Andrea.

 

[Warren Sarle]

Kodak has a photo on their web site showing a distinctly visible red blob.
Bob Cody posted a photo either here or at RG with a similar red blob.
I have none of the lenses that are frequently accused of red blobs.

 

[MarkLe]

14/n 4.4.5, 50mm 1.8 (same as andrea buso) with..no red blob (I did try and try hard and harder) but instead I had two times a grey metallic stain coming from nowhere. It was indoors, ISO 80, 1/125 f/5.6 with just 1 strobe right in front of the model. This happened 5 days ago, when the camera was 2 days old (a bit young..I know). Since then I'm happy to confirm that it never happened again. I've no idea what it was, just a reflection maybe... or most likely a writing issue during the recording (and yes, I was shooting JPG) : honestly I wouldn't know. I deleted the file because I couldn't stand the sight of it in front of me now I regret it because I could analyze it better, after the moment of madness.

this camera is amazing. I only have good thoughts about it. Like Andrea Buso I am amazed by the quality of the details.

The 14/n is getting ready (as soon as I'll get a second battery) to go out and play DIVA for a christening next week. I'll post few images of the event. And I'm convinced to let her (I mean...it's a she..isn't it?) go "SOLO". 1Ds will stay home, and 10D will play the supporting actress

I am happy..after all..who says that a photographer can't be happy and get excited and play with a new toy (once in a while)?
we don't have to be mad serious all the time!

 

[bartP]

Testing a 14n for one day now and have seen red blobs, even with a Tamron 28-75 zoom. In most cases they showed up if blown out whites were involved somewhere in the picture. No problem at all if the red shows in ares where it can be worked on. The first half hour I thought, wow, i'm in respect of all those 14n users, why are they doing this to themselves: shooting a nor ergonomic body that shows the red blob all the time? Well, that was around noon. After a while my body started to adjust to the Kodak body, I did some more serious subjects and lighting and was suddely hit by 14n fever. Not only is the wide view finder a thrill and the large files, but also every pixel seems better than I've ever seen. I've seen files from Kodak and one sent to me by Bob, but it's always easier to judge one's own files apparently. The full sensor is more forgiving for zoom lenses, I'd say good enough. But I'll always shoot primes if I can for that extra bit(e) of sharpness. Neat image does a great job correcting noise from mistakes. Yeah, I've seen now too, that noise builds up over iso80, but hey I don't even need anything more than iso80 for now. At first I was a bit disapointed to hear from others that even wider apertures than F8 could show the blob and was even more shocked when I saw them appear in my own images. But to be honest, I was pushing it. If I adjust the contrast to what film would have shown me, there are hardly problems and it becomes really addicting to shoot the 14n ("Mine name is Bart, I'm a 14n user") Thanks guys for your help and information until now. (You know who you are.) It has made my testig a lot easir and faster knowing what to look for and what to watch out for. Until know the testing is fun.
I'll keep you posted.
Kind regards,
Bart

 

[RogM]

Don't forget that images taken in the 6 Mpx mode seem to be noise-free up to ISO 200, since the internal downsizing appears to have noise-controlling features that go well beyond what normal downsizing does. The 6 Mpx images are also exceptionally good quality for this size, better than I'm seeing (for example) from even the D100 by a small amount, plus of course the full frame advantage. I'm finding that the more I use the 14n the better I like it, it just takes some getting used to.
-RogM

 

[bartP]

Thanks Andrea,
Neat image DOES do a good job in addition to the 14n. Totally forgot about it.
Bart

I did a walk arond the block and took about 30 frames in different
light condition and with scenes of different contrast. I had the
50mm 1.8 and I forgot of putting the lens hood,never mind. The sky
was pretty overcast in NY today. So was a good test for bad light
condition. I have to say that in general everything went well. I
shot mostly in automatic and in Af doing point and shot and rarely
an exposure compensation. I did not spend more than 5sec for
composition. I live down town NY therefore I had plenties of bricks
and iron gates and grills, carton boxes at my disposal. LOL
I also had plenty of different shade of colors. I shot in raw, of
course, and in automatic white balance, wich I swithced and fine
tuned on the raw convereters later.
The shot at 80 iso were outstanding the detail is similar at a 6 by
7 film drum scanned (maybe not, but pretty close). Colors were nice
and the noise on the darkest object in the shade was good. Almost
as good as a 10D at 100 iso, which means almost no noise at all. In
pratic if I print even very larg that noise wont be visible at
naked eye.
In some photos was possible reading some tiny text on carton boxes
few meters away, or a smal badge on a yellow cab 4/5 meters away.

At 200 iso thing changes of course, the noise on the dark and
underexposed objects became visible at 100% magnification, but it
would not be more than on MF 6 by7 film at the same ISO. It is
printable safety on a magazine spread or catalogue and it is pretty
manageable with Neat Image. On the lightened areas there is a sort
of super fine grain similar at an 100 iso MF film.
Probably because of the faster shutter speed at 200 iso the pics
had more contrast and of course they were sharper. colors changed a
bit and became more saturated than 80 iso.

I had in 1 occasion a very light almost invisible magenta blob
while shooting at an airliner flying far away above me. since the
exposure was in auto the aperture went at f11 and that was when the
red blob showed up, but it was almost invisible and soft edged. It
was just over the airplain do. LOL. The shot was 1 stop under
exposed, because of the sky, once you compensate, the magenta blob
would disappear.

I also made some shots inside the Chelsea market, wich is a place
lighten by those gas light bulbs and colorfull neon lights, and
there was a bit of magenta halo on the overexposed lightings, but I
think It would had been the same even shooting with a Canon, maybe
a little less, still it is something that if you do not like it ,
then you need Photoshop, even with a Canon. In any case, if I was
shooting film under that lightings would had been much worst.

Of course these are very simple observations and I was shooting in
casual style and I call them as I see.
I'm sorry if I do not post any images, I eventually do when I do
some serious work with the camera.

Andrea.

 

[bartP]

Thanks RogM, I try that too,
Bart

Don't forget that images taken in the 6 Mpx mode seem to be
noise-free up to ISO 200, since the internal downsizing appears to
have noise-controlling features that go well beyond what normal
downsizing does. The 6 Mpx images are also exceptionally good
quality for this size, better than I'm seeing (for example) from
even the D100 by a small amount, plus of course the full frame
advantage. I'm finding that the more I use the 14n the better I
like it, it just takes some getting used to.
-RogM

 

[Warren Sarle]

It's an 80-400VR zoom, not a prime, but maybe I could get away with calling it a prime example of a red spot?



It happens at f11 and f16. Not sure what focal length since the 14n does not record the focal length when mirror pre-release is on.

 

[bartP]

After some more testing the red blob has become totally controllable for me. As soon as it shows up, I'm not doing a good job.. Fill flash/reflect the light to the subject to lower the highlights instead of pushing your exposure and it will be gone, just like shadow noise if you give them some more lighting. (Andrea's finding) I have nothing left desired, even shooting iso 400. If you got the lighting, the 14n delivers. Something else for wedding and documentary shooters, but for what I'm doing, shooting in totally controllable lighting there's just no more reason not to trust the 14n anymore (imho). it's a wonderful camera!

 

[RogM]

It's an 80-400VR zoom, not a prime, but maybe I could get away with
calling it a prime example of a red spot?

It does resemble my earlier IR photo in terms of "blob" size etc., so it must be the same thing we're seeing here. I'm wondering if the "color shift fix" posted by Leon Obers a while back would be an effective way to eliminate this "red surprise." He claimed it was also effective with CCD dust specks as well as color shift, might be worth a try for a shot that's worth the added effort.

 

[andrea buso]

I feel more comfortable about the red blob with the 50mm, because it did not showed up even at F11 and higher in at least 100 shots made around the town in different light conditions, apperture, iso and shutter speed.

I think the red blob is related to fairly long exposure in low light or back light in low light as well.

I'm very pleased at the 160 Iso performace in light situation were I was in interior close to a large window but shade at 1/60 around 2.8/4 taking a photos of a black dress jacket. The noise was only minimal, on spots were it does not bother and controllable with Neat image. At the end looked like pleasant film grain in MF 160 iso.

Today I got an 85mm 1.8 AF, an infamous 60mm macro AF and a 70-200mm 2.8 all non D lenses. It was sort of a gift from a friend that he does not use them anymore. Cool.

I did some informal testing for color shift against a white wall underexposed with the 443 firmware.

Only the 60mm showed problems, I have to do urther testing with it because the shift were visible but not drammatic. I believe there is a chanche for a solution.

A part for the zoom they all belong to group 2 lenses, but Kodak suggest Auto for all of them. I tested both settings mayby Auto is best.
The 85 and the 70-200 are just perfect not a minimal color cast or what so ever.
The 50mm maybe shows something, but not sure.

Anyway so far I'm quite happy.
Andrea.

After some more testing the red blob has become totally
controllable for me. As soon as it shows up, I'm not doing a good
job.. Fill flash/reflect the light to the subject to lower the
highlights instead of pushing your exposure and it will be gone,
just like shadow noise if you give them some more lighting.
(Andrea's finding) I have nothing left desired, even shooting iso
400. If you got the lighting, the 14n delivers. Something else for
wedding and documentary shooters, but for what I'm doing, shooting
in totally controllable lighting there's just no more reason not to
trust the 14n anymore (imho). it's a wonderful camera!

 

[bartP]

Yeah, I think "comfortable" is the right way to put it, dealing with the red blob. I'm convinced now that it isn't particularly a 14n "flaw" but somthing you have to deal with, shooting a 14n. Like we have to put up with blown out highlights and noisy shadows shooting high contrast. I've read in one of your posts that a good thing to deal with noisy shadows is lightening them up a little during capture. I'd say the same about highlight related red blobs in contrasty situations. They only show up in pictures of lighting situations, I never would have liked with any digital camera due to the contrast that's too high, so I'd lighten up the shadows too to lower the highlights=flash and shoot with a shorter time/narrower aperture. In extreme lighting, it shows up at F4 as well. So, problem comfortably solved this way.

I don't know how picky you are according to the noise level, but I've shot iso 400 with a very pleasing noise level. But the lighting must be exactly right, no underexposure. I think the 14n(eat image) would be a much more successful camera if it came with Neat Image software. Iso 400 and lower is beautiful with Neat Image for the noisy areas. I just can't see why it should be replaced. For very low light level photography it's very hard for me to produce noise at iso 80, especially with NI. I like the fact that the 14n is the most reliable camera of the two current offerings. I could not live with the Green White Red/Magenta cast (unless shooting an Italian Flag). I'm waiting for the price off a used 14n to go down and replace my D100 with that. Because now I want two. The feature to shoot smaller RAW sizes is great, full sensor shooting at 6mp if you don't need 14mp. (Haven't tried that yet)

I like such a friend giving you those lenses (although my friends are pretty cool already too, being who they are).

I'm leaving lens optimization at Auto too with the lenses I'm using. No problems yet.

I'm starting to like the body design of 14n more and more. It's soo compact that I can hardly believe it's a full sensor and high MP camera. Even the vertical release is comfortable for me. While holding the camera, shooting left eye, I have my middle finger in that little space, so, holding the camera more or less at the top and my left hand holding the camera holding the camera's top (flashmount).
And after shooting with the D100, RAW+JPEG is very convenient.
Not so bad!
Bart

I'm very pleased at the 160 Iso performace in light situation were
I was in interior close to a large window but shade at 1/60 around
2.8/4 taking a photos of a black dress jacket. The noise was only
minimal, on spots were it does not bother and controllable with
Neat image. At the end looked like pleasant film grain in MF 160
iso.

Today I got an 85mm 1.8 AF, an infamous 60mm macro AF and a
70-200mm 2.8 all non D lenses. It was sort of a gift from a friend
that he does not use them anymore. Cool.

I did some informal testing for color shift against a white wall
underexposed with the 443 firmware.
Only the 60mm showed problems, I have to do urther testing with it
because the shift were visible but not drammatic. I believe there
is a chanche for a solution.

A part for the zoom they all belong to group 2 lenses, but Kodak
suggest Auto for all of them. I tested both settings mayby Auto is
best.
The 85 and the 70-200 are just perfect not a minimal color cast or
what so ever.
The 50mm maybe shows something, but not sure.

Anyway so far I'm quite happy.
Andrea.

After some more testing the red blob has become totally
controllable for me. As soon as it shows up, I'm not doing a good
job.. Fill flash/reflect the light to the subject to lower the
highlights instead of pushing your exposure and it will be gone,
just like shadow noise if you give them some more lighting.
(Andrea's finding) I have nothing left desired, even shooting iso
400. If you got the lighting, the 14n delivers. Something else for
wedding and documentary shooters, but for what I'm doing, shooting
in totally controllable lighting there's just no more reason not to
trust the 14n anymore (imho). it's a wonderful camera!

 

[Mastrianni]

I have attempted to GET this "red blob" using my Nikon 50mm 1.8 AF. (this is the old non-D model with the window) I tried at every aperture from 22 down shooting into backlit branches, frontlit branches, sidelit grass, etc. I cannot seem to get this to occur. I would just like to make sure this anomoly doesn't occur when I least expect it. However, I've only read about it. I'm using firmware 4.4.3.

Any suggestions on how to force this occurence so that I may have an inkling on how to avoid it? Or do some never have this issue occur?

Thanks in advance
Mastrianni

 

[bobcdy]

There is a short discussion on the Kodak site

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/service/professional/tib/tib7063.jhtml?id=0.1.14.32.5.124&lc=en

Here is a quote from that discussion:

"Does a red spot appear in the center of your images ...? Photographers often mistake this artifact as flare from the scene or a light slightly off camera.

The red spot is caused by visible light reflecting off the sensor/film cover glass and again reflecting off the rear lens element. Recessed rear lens elements (the back of the lens is closer to the sensor/film) seem to exhibit this artifact more often.

Solution

If you find a red spot in the center of your DCR files, try one or all of the following:

*

Reduce the amount, or alter the direction, of the light coming straight into the lens.
*

Open the lens by increasing the aperture or lowering the f-stop.
*

Use a different lens.

Note: Do not flag or stop down the lens! This makes the red spot more pronounced because all the light is focused through a smaller point in the lens. "
---

Assuming the Kodak is correct about the red spot, then to force the spot, I suppose you could try all the possibilities listed by Kodak, such as using very small apertures, increasing the light, and/or changing light angles. I've only seen one clear example in my photos and that taken on a bright day at f22 with heavy snow ground cover. It is posted (the first photo- Click on the small thumbnail to get the enlarged image) at http://www.users.qwest.net/~rdcody/Kodak14N/
Bob Cody

I have attempted to GET this "red blob" using my Nikon 50mm 1.8 AF.
(this is the old non-D model with the window) I tried at every
aperture from 22 down shooting into backlit branches, frontlit
branches, sidelit grass, etc. I cannot seem to get this to occur. I
would just like to make sure this anomoly doesn't occur when I
least expect it. However, I've only read about it. I'm using
firmware 4.4.3.

Any suggestions on how to force this occurence so that I may have
an inkling on how to avoid it? Or do some never have this issue
occur?

Thanks in advance
Mastrianni

 

[Mastrianni]

Bob,

Thanks,.....I've tried a few more times and can't seem to duplicate this artifact. Rarely would I shoot this lens above 5.6 anyway, so it's probably not going to be an issue.

Regards
Mastrianni

 

[RogM]

Bob,

Thanks,.....I've tried a few more times and can't seem to duplicate
this artifact. Rarely would I shoot this lens above 5.6 anyway, so
it's probably not going to be an issue.

Regards
Mastrianni

It's only conjecture, but the photos I posted earlier have suggested to me that this thing is IR-related, since any attempt to use the 14n for IR photography seems to result in a bright central area--and the more the lens is stopped down, the more concentrated it seems to become. I've also seen examples of this "red blob" phenomena posted that do indeed look like the same thing. It has also been reported when using tungsten lamps, likely to be quite IR rich. If it is due to IR, that would explain why it is often not repeatable, since lighting conditions may vary significantly in the amount of IR present, a relatively high proportion of IR occuring in the very late afternoon. Something to consider, anyway.

 

[bartP]

Tamron 28-75 2.8 shot at 2.8

The overexposed white parts of the floor caused this reflection more to the left from the middle. FYI this floor is black and white, not black red and white.

I have attempted to GET this "red blob" using my Nikon 50mm 1.8 AF.
(this is the old non-D model with the window) I tried at every
aperture from 22 down shooting into backlit branches, frontlit
branches, sidelit grass, etc. I cannot seem to get this to occur. I
would just like to make sure this anomoly doesn't occur when I
least expect it. However, I've only read about it. I'm using
firmware 4.4.3.

Any suggestions on how to force this occurence so that I may have
an inkling on how to avoid it? Or do some never have this issue
occur?

Thanks in advance
Mastrianni

 

[RogM]

Note the mirror-iamge reversal of the red artifact. Just as a point of interest, I had a central "red blob" occur yesterday while using a Sony F828, so this may not be a unique problem for the Kodaks. I suppose no one expects perfection from the Sonys, however.

 

[bartP]

Yeah indeed, it's like it used to be with film: as soon as you know your camera, you'll when problems arise and how to prevent them.

Note the mirror-iamge reversal of the red artifact. Just as a
point of interest, I had a central "red blob" occur yesterday while
using a Sony F828, so this may not be a unique problem for the
Kodaks. I suppose no one expects perfection from the Sonys,
however.

 

[bartP]

After some more testing, I've found that all my primes easily generate the red blob at all apertures staring 2.8, so I won't be using them anymore. What I was controlling in an earlier post about the red blob, was in fact a reddish glare. In high contrast images this appears around white parts, but that isn't the same as that round red blob in the middle. I've read Mastriannis post about not being able to get the red blob in sight, and I belive that, shooting the 24-85 AFS. I've been using the Tamron 28-75 now and this lens has no problems at all at any aperture. Makes me even consider going for a DLSRn, since Gene McCluney hasn't had problems either with it shooting that camera body. For the rest the 14n is unbelieveable. Wow, this camera has grown with the firmware upgrades!