PLEASE READ Voting is primitive

[Nee (Renee Davis)]

We've tried going the anonymous route...and the results were less than stellar. In one challenge, controversy arose over a photo that ended up winning, but the photographer was unable to respond to the accusations of his photo being set up, rather than spontaneous, because of having to remain anonymous until the voting was over. The other major problem encountered was that an anonymously entered photo won another challenge, but since the winner never came forward, the person who got the second place votes was picked to host the next challenge. Some food for thought...(unless there is a way for only the moderator to know the identities, so that all pics are properly ID'd in the end) Nee

I just have to add to Zipper's comment about seeing the vote counts
and thinking this influences the voting.
What I find really different from any art competition I have been
involved in is the posting of names with the photo. I realize the
purpose is sharing of your work, but I think comments can be added
without the photographers name being known. I even find myself
being drawn to names I recognize, and I haven't been active in this
Forum very long. To have a really fair voting process, it is my
opinion that names should not be attached to photos for the
Challenges, as well as opinions gathered by posting the photo in
the forum before entering.
We have the weekly gallery and others for sharing and displaying of
work with discussion, but since the Challanges are obviously
competitive and taken seriously, I think it would be advantageous
to everyone to treat them as such; keeping photographers anonymous
for voting purposes. Comments should still be very much encouraged
and welcome; but I agree with a previous post that said negative
comments should be discouraged for the Challenges, as those will
also sway votes.
Please...this just my opinion and NOT inflamed in any way. In the
competitions I have been involved with, great pains are taken to
choose judges who do not know the artists involved...hopefully
adding another element of fairness.
This is not a matter of life and death...I just thought I'd throw
it out there for consideration. I really think this is a great
group of considerate and fair people. Just some food for thought as
long as we're talking about revamping Challenges.
MickeyD

--my galleries are @: http://www.pbase.com/rdavis

 

[Erik Madsen]

Nee,

Let me preface - My site does not present a conflict of interest with dpreview.com in any way, other than it will have forums and it is for digital photographers.

I have plans to offer a free level of service, but if it becomes as popular as I think it will - I could not afford to the resources required to run a site like the one I have in mind. I think Slug has done a great job and obviously is catering to a certain type of user. I myself have sent Slug a $20 donation.

I'm about 40% of the way through development, and looking at a possible 1st version release within the next 21 days. I would like to open it up for beta testing in the next week. If anyone here is interested, please email me.

I have some special features being implemented that should make the paid services well worth the small fee planned. It's definately going to support a mixed crowd in terms of commercial services and free services. I have pretty mixed emotions about commercialism in regards to community based web sites. I could rant, but I think the best explanation that comes to mind is a simple trueism...

"You get what you pay for."

Erik

I guess I'll chime in.

I'm an award winning web applications developer, and recently
stumbled into digital photography as a means of actually looking to
find a hobby outside of my profession. I follow this board and
pbase pretty close, and the clarity of what is lacking has forced
me to break ground on a solution of my own.

I know you all are pretty dedicated to dpreview and pbase, and I
had pretty much decided to not toot my own horn around here.
However, in light of the recent events, I'm finding it harder and
harder to keep my mouth shut. I hope I don't get kicked out of
here for this next paragraph, I sure do like you guys and being
part of the club.

I'm two short weeks away from having a fully-featured solution,
with many of them based entirely on my experiences with STF. Since
my solution will be partly commercial, and I'm not permitted to
"drop my own name" around here without paying, I won't give more
details. It actually kind sucks that I can't tell you more here,
because I don't see how my site will conflict with dpreview other
than a forums feature.

If anyone is interested in knowing more, just email me at
[email protected].
--
Erik Madsen
Web Applications Developer
http://www.lumiere.ws

--
my galleries are @: http://www.pbase.com/rdavis

--Erik MadsenWeb Applications Developer http://www.lumiere.ws

 

[Erichatch]

Multivoting the way we're now doing it identifies the top few, but it also allows others to know how their work fared relative to the winners. This is very useful information, at least to me. I can start asking questions like "Picture A drew some votes, while my second entry didn't. What's different about the two?"

Multivoting also allows me to provide a level of recognition to deserving photos which would otherwise go unsung. Getting votes, any votes, is encouraging to new photographers and those dedicated to improving.

I say, keep it this way. It doesn't take any longer, really, than identifying the top 3, because you still have to identify your candidate photos then narrow the list.

ERic--EricF707 http://www.pbase.com/erichocinc

 

[Klyphton]

"You determine the popularity of galleries by voting on them.

Just click on the Vote for this gallery link at the bottom of a gallery that you like.

The purpose of the popularity ranking is so we can easily find galleries that other people think are worth looking at.

There are no defined criteria, but galleries with good technical or artistic quality will float to the top.

This is still new so there are not yet many votes.

As time goes by, you will be able to display popular galleries that are less than two weeks old for example to show only recent good galleries.
Or display all-time rankings, etc."

From ( http://www.pbase.com/galleries?view=popular )--Clifton http://www.pbase.com/klyphton

 

[blulegend]

I would consider including the Sony Forum challenges once I get everything ironed out with the Canon Forum challenge voting. The challenge is the first real test of the challenge though I've done a lot of testing myself.

Currently there are still a few bugs in the script (which itself is really a joke in terms of programming finesse) that have popped up.

PBase has blocked my server from remote access to the site, probably since it's hogging bandwidth (though minimal since my server only pulls the server generated source). At this time, challenges need to be manually updated by copying the source into a data file for the script to parse and only I have privileges to do this at this point. In order to support another forum and more frequent challenges, I would need to re-write and change a lot of the code, which I will end up doing anyway to streamline things.

My real occupation is trying to get into medical school having recently finished my BS. I have been working part time developing commercial/organization sites for the past 2 years.

The vote booth will remain free until I take it down. My source is not open. However, being a student, I wouldn't mind taking donations, though I don't think I would ever place a link on the booth asking for them.

I'll let you know when I can absorb this forum's voting.---Jack==================Galleries: 1) http://www.pbase.com/blulegend/ 2) http://www.photoaccess.com/share/guest.jsp?ID=AB8C5232351&cb=PACurr: Canon PowerShot G2Prev: CP995, CP880, S10, S20, Oly D-340R

 

[Ann Chaikin]

I agree mostly but... the photo I would have chosen got no votes and the one I wouldn't have got some... So...

I think allowing two or three entries would be okay with voting for 1st, 2nd and third only. Other pics could be mentioned in the "honorable mention" section. The score would be 3 points for first, 2 for second and 1 for third in order to be able to total up the results.

PT Kitty (Ann C)

I think it should be 1 week, 1 entry (take your best shot!) and
then vote (1 day for voting too) for 1st, 2nd and 3rd place.

The challenge needs to be one week max, and the number of entries
limited to no more than three, maybe even a single entry. When
voting time comes, you vote for 3 photos, ideally 1 photo. You
would still wind up in the same winners but it would be much faster
than having to pick up to 15 (30 with the exhibition) to include.
I have noticed that people will tend to say there is not enough
points because they don't want to give the impression that the
photos that were not picked were bad. So the points have been
increased in an attempt to satisfy the stated desire to have more
points, when in reality it is not a genuine need but an excuse for
choosing the way we have if you follow me. Not saying that in a
bad way, it's just practical, there are indeed many fine photos but
you need to narrow it down or it would be a 253 way tie ;-)

If we keep it fast and limited it will not be such a burden, and I
am speaking not only of people voting, but the poor slob who has to
count and tabulate hundreds and hundreds of individual entries
(many with not using a template, many not entering the title
correctly, etc). Which takes at least for this challenge hours
upon hours upon hours, and thats no joke. It will become
unmanageable very soon if things are not simplified.
--
Shay - My Sony F707 Gallery: http://shaystephens.com/portfolio.asp

--
Faye

 

[Ann Chaikin]

I like this idea. Put your best shot or shots in the eligible gallery and you personal runners up in the outtakes. Then others could comment on them, things like "I like this one better than the one you submitted." Of course it would drive everybody nuts. LOL But seriously, I really do like this idea. PT Kitty

AND, with each challenge there should be an eligible, exhibition
AND outtakes gallery, so people could post their outtakes, but they
do NOT get voted on.

Amy

Yes I think that would go pretty quick, the 30 votes per person
takes a long time to tally, but the 6 votes (3 per gallery) goes
pretty quick.
--
Shay - My Sony F707 Gallery: http://shaystephens.com/portfolio.asp

--
beauty is really in the LCD/EVF of the beholder
http://www.something-fishy.com/photography

 

[Nee (Renee Davis)]

Well, you are right when you say you get what you pay for! No argument there. I'll look forward to seeing what you've created, but bear in mind that old habits die hard if you are hoping stf will move it's challenges to your new gallery site. In any case, I'd definitely like to see what you come up with. I'm actively looking at other sites to participate in (though I will always consider stf and pbase my home ) Best Wishes... Nee (and I did email you just now!) Thanks.

Nee,

Let me preface - My site does not present a conflict of interest
with dpreview.com in any way, other than it will have forums and it
is for digital photographers.

I have plans to offer a free level of service, but if it becomes as
popular as I think it will - I could not afford to the resources
required to run a site like the one I have in mind. I think Slug
has done a great job and obviously is catering to a certain type of
user. I myself have sent Slug a $20 donation.

I'm about 40% of the way through development, and looking at a
possible 1st version release within the next 21 days. I would like
to open it up for beta testing in the next week. If anyone here is
interested, please email me.

I have some special features being implemented that should make the
paid services well worth the small fee planned. It's definately
going to support a mixed crowd in terms of commercial services and
free services. I have pretty mixed emotions about commercialism in
regards to community based web sites. I could rant, but I think
the best explanation that comes to mind is a simple trueism...

"You get what you pay for."

Erik

--my galleries are @: http://www.pbase.com/rdavis

 

[Erik Madsen]

Nee,

I have no intentions of stealing away users from pbase or dpreview. I simply wish to provide a valuable service to enthusiasts, create some happy faces and maybe make a few bucks in the end. All in all, I want to have a shot at doing something really great that makes people happy. If what I provide does not match the criteria set forth by STF users, no worries. I myself will continue to use pbase and dpreview. They both have a good thing going on.

I feel a momentum for digital photography picking up and reaching a critical mass pretty soon. I'm only a squirrell trying to get a nut.

Erik

Nee,

Let me preface - My site does not present a conflict of interest
with dpreview.com in any way, other than it will have forums and it
is for digital photographers.

I have plans to offer a free level of service, but if it becomes as
popular as I think it will - I could not afford to the resources
required to run a site like the one I have in mind. I think Slug
has done a great job and obviously is catering to a certain type of
user. I myself have sent Slug a $20 donation.

I'm about 40% of the way through development, and looking at a
possible 1st version release within the next 21 days. I would like
to open it up for beta testing in the next week. If anyone here is
interested, please email me.

I have some special features being implemented that should make the
paid services well worth the small fee planned. It's definately
going to support a mixed crowd in terms of commercial services and
free services. I have pretty mixed emotions about commercialism in
regards to community based web sites. I could rant, but I think
the best explanation that comes to mind is a simple trueism...

"You get what you pay for."

Erik

--
my galleries are @: http://www.pbase.com/rdavis

--Erik MadsenWeb Applications Developer http://www.lumiere.ws

 

[HelenPB]

I have to agree with Eric. If I'm not mistaken (and I could be, on the exact system), we've gone through phases of one vote for our top three, 4-3-2 for the top three, 10 votes to apportion as we please, and now 15. This was because people weren't happy voting for only three entries, weren't happy with just three votes, wanted to be able to recognize other deserving works and then wanted to recognize more deserving works.

I imagine if we go back to a prior system, the same complaints will surface all over again (except on the part of the host, for whom it would be simpler) -- but then, no voting system will make everybody happy.

We also tried the anonymous pictures, which some liked and some didn't. I wasn't a fan of it, but in retrospect, maybe it wasn't such a bad idea. However, some people never bothered to identify their entries even after the conclusion of the challenge, so I never did get to find out who some of the artists were.

Helen

Multivoting the way we're now doing it identifies the top few, but
it also allows others to know how their work fared relative to the
winners. This is very useful information, at least to me. I can
start asking questions like "Picture A drew some votes, while my
second entry didn't. What's different about the two?"

Multivoting also allows me to provide a level of recognition to
deserving photos which would otherwise go unsung. Getting votes,
any votes, is encouraging to new photographers and those dedicated
to improving.

I say, keep it this way. It doesn't take any longer, really, than
identifying the top 3, because you still have to identify your
candidate photos then narrow the list.

ERic
--
Eric
F707
http://www.pbase.com/erichocinc

--Helen--- http://community.webshots.com/user/helenpb_

 

[Mark J]

I'm still new here and, I did not have the pleasure of participating in the anonymous artist challenge.... what a NUTS idea that was!! lol Isn't part of the fun, knowing and learning each a little about the artist? I feel as though I've learned alot about Bill R........

I'll NEVER attempt to rob his house LOL

Seriously though....

For me, if everyone were to pick a first second and third place winner in each gallery... standardizing the points at 3,2,1 respectively, and allow as MANY honorable mentions and comments as desired......

wouldn't that satisfy both the need for the voter to acknowledge everybody including MOM ????

wouldn't that satisfy both the need for the artist to feel as though their image / work was recognized??

I feel it does... unless recognition means different things to different people.... in which case you will NEVER please everyone.

Just my thoughts on the matter.

It's been a fun thread..... even for a "newbie".

cioa

Mark J.

I imagine if we go back to a prior system, the same complaints will
surface all over again (except on the part of the host, for whom it
would be simpler) -- but then, no voting system will make everybody
happy.

We also tried the anonymous pictures, which some liked and some
didn't. I wasn't a fan of it, but in retrospect, maybe it wasn't
such a bad idea. However, some people never bothered to identify
their entries even after the conclusion of the challenge, so I
never did get to find out who some of the artists were.

Helen

Multivoting the way we're now doing it identifies the top few, but
it also allows others to know how their work fared relative to the
winners. This is very useful information, at least to me. I can
start asking questions like "Picture A drew some votes, while my
second entry didn't. What's different about the two?"

Multivoting also allows me to provide a level of recognition to
deserving photos which would otherwise go unsung. Getting votes,
any votes, is encouraging to new photographers and those dedicated
to improving.

I say, keep it this way. It doesn't take any longer, really, than
identifying the top 3, because you still have to identify your
candidate photos then narrow the list.

ERic
--
Eric
F707
http://www.pbase.com/erichocinc

--
Helen
---
http://community.webshots.com/user/helenpb_

 

[HelenPB]

wouldn't that satisfy both the need for the voter to acknowledge
everybody including MOM ????

Well, does it, really? In the case of 3-2-1, the voter recognizes three people only. You've seen how many people have said while voting that they didn't have enough votes to go around, how hard it was to decide, etc.

With 15 votes, you can divvy them up the way you want; you can recognize 15 people, or three, or any number in between.

Personally, I love having that many votes to cast; for me, it's the perfect number. However, I'll go along with whatever the majority of participants want. Maybe we should have a vote on that (with only one vote per person!)?

Helen
--Helen--- http://community.webshots.com/user/helenpb_

 

[Mark J]

I still can't figure if everyone can even agree on what recognition means?

Some say it's points baby points! lol
Some say it's positive comments on their image work
Some say it's as little as an honorable mention if their work doesn't win
Some say it's win or lose, black and white...nothing in between.

So, can someone tell me what recognition means to THEM? I'm just curious what that might be for you?

In fact, maybe I'll start a new thread on it?

Personally.... I just enjoy the participation in the challenge itself. I don't care if I get to cast 15 points, 10 points, whatever. As long as you guys keep challenging me.... I'm HAPPY!

Thank you for your thoughts Helen... always a fresh view.

Mark J.

wouldn't that satisfy both the need for the voter to acknowledge
everybody including MOM ????

Well, does it, really? In the case of 3-2-1, the voter recognizes
three people only. You've seen how many people have said while
voting that they didn't have enough votes to go around, how hard it
was to decide, etc.

With 15 votes, you can divvy them up the way you want; you can
recognize 15 people, or three, or any number in between.

Personally, I love having that many votes to cast; for me, it's the
perfect number. However, I'll go along with whatever the majority
of participants want. Maybe we should have a vote on that (with
only one vote per person!)?

Helen

--
Helen
---
http://community.webshots.com/user/helenpb_

 

[Shutter.]

Mark,

I think that's the best answer yet. But moreover, I also think its up to the challenge host to decide. If they choose the voting method, then they can must calculate the votes. If they want simple and short, they can have it, if they want complicated and long, they can have it. That's what it all comes down to - winning and hosting the challenge.
Jim

I'll NEVER attempt to rob his house LOL

Seriously though....

For me, if everyone were to pick a first second and third place
winner in each gallery... standardizing the points at 3,2,1
respectively, and allow as MANY honorable mentions and comments as
desired......

wouldn't that satisfy both the need for the voter to acknowledge
everybody including MOM ????

wouldn't that satisfy both the need for the artist to feel as
though their image / work was recognized??

I feel it does... unless recognition means different things to
different people.... in which case you will NEVER please everyone.

Just my thoughts on the matter.

It's been a fun thread..... even for a "newbie".

cioa

Mark J.

I imagine if we go back to a prior system, the same complaints will
surface all over again (except on the part of the host, for whom it
would be simpler) -- but then, no voting system will make everybody
happy.

We also tried the anonymous pictures, which some liked and some
didn't. I wasn't a fan of it, but in retrospect, maybe it wasn't
such a bad idea. However, some people never bothered to identify
their entries even after the conclusion of the challenge, so I
never did get to find out who some of the artists were.

Helen

Multivoting the way we're now doing it identifies the top few, but
it also allows others to know how their work fared relative to the
winners. This is very useful information, at least to me. I can
start asking questions like "Picture A drew some votes, while my
second entry didn't. What's different about the two?"

Multivoting also allows me to provide a level of recognition to
deserving photos which would otherwise go unsung. Getting votes,
any votes, is encouraging to new photographers and those dedicated
to improving.

I say, keep it this way. It doesn't take any longer, really, than
identifying the top 3, because you still have to identify your
candidate photos then narrow the list.

ERic
--
Eric
F707
http://www.pbase.com/erichocinc

--
Helen
---
http://community.webshots.com/user/helenpb_

--Jim Fuglestad http://www.pbase.com/jfuglestad/galleries

 

[blulegend]

I think I've managed to fix the bugs for now.

Thanks to a great suggestion here, I have hidden previous voting information until the user has voted.

If users can cooperate during posting, I can make it parse out the author of the image until voting is over by requiring certain simple syntax while naming images.

Let me know if I should even consider expanding the booth to the STF challenges.

-Jack

I would consider including the Sony Forum challenges once I get
everything ironed out with the Canon Forum challenge voting. The
challenge is the first real test of the challenge though I've done
a lot of testing myself.

Currently there are still a few bugs in the script (which itself is
really a joke in terms of programming finesse) that have popped up.

PBase has blocked my server from remote access to the site,
probably since it's hogging bandwidth (though minimal since my
server only pulls the server generated source). At this time,
challenges need to be manually updated by copying the source into a
data file for the script to parse and only I have privileges to do
this at this point. In order to support another forum and more
frequent challenges, I would need to re-write and change a lot of
the code, which I will end up doing anyway to streamline things.

My real occupation is trying to get into medical school having
recently finished my BS. I have been working part time developing
commercial/organization sites for the past 2 years.

The vote booth will remain free until I take it down. My source is
not open. However, being a student, I wouldn't mind taking
donations, though I don't think I would ever place a link on the
booth asking for them.

I'll let you know when I can absorb this forum's voting.
--
-Jack
==================
Galleries: 1) http://www.pbase.com/blulegend/
2) http://www.photoaccess.com/share/guest.jsp?ID=AB8C5232351&cb=PA
Curr: Canon PowerShot G2
Prev: CP995, CP880, S10, S20, Oly D-340R

---Jack==================Galleries: 1) http://www.pbase.com/blulegend/ 2) http://www.photoaccess.com/share/guest.jsp?ID=AB8C5232351&cb=PACurr: Canon PowerShot G2Prev: CP995, CP880, S10, S20, Oly D-340R

 

[bluedot]

IMHO, you don't need the artist's name under the thumbnail since you would be voting for the image itself, not the artist who created it. Even if an image I like was created by Elmore Fudd (spelling?) I would still vote for it.

The following message was sent to me regarding the voting process.
I want everyone to know... this is not the first person to express
this view.... how unfortunate.

Mark,
I feel the same way, and I only put down the artist name, if it
appeared under the thumbnail...oh well! I clicked on the picture to
see it large, but did not notice the artist name there.

I'm not going to vote again, it took way too long last night, if my
vote doesn't count, it just doesn't count, I can live with that.

I still enjoyed the Challenge!

We have this great website / forum for photography
We have great photographers
Why do we have to vote in such a backward time consuming way??

If challenges are a large part of this forum .... and I feel as
though it is, then can't someone come up with a better faster way
to do the voting?

How about a REAL voting template??
How about artists names under the thumb... not just the image

I'm sorry to make so much of this but, it was my first vote and, it
really was a long drawn out process. In this fast paced
technilogical world we live in, this sure is a primitive way of
doing this.

Any suggestions? otherwise, you are likely going to be missing
voters / participants in your future challenges..... just look at
how the person expressed themself in the above message.

Have a great day... I'm outa here for now.

Mark J.
--
Mark J.

--cheers,bluedot.- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - In a nutshell, I'm a nutcase.- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -www.pbase.com/nichijin

 

[JimB]

I'm still new here and, I did not have the pleasure of
participating in the anonymous artist challenge.... what a NUTS
idea that was!! lol Isn't part of the fun, knowing and learning
each a little about the artist?

That's why you wait until the voting is over to see who the artist was. What's good about the anonymous vote is that it gives everyone an equal chance to win! People are human and they will always look to the most popular artist (stf member) when placing their votes. That doesn't mean they don't deserve a vote but doing it anonymously would just allow them to be judged as equals with everybody else when voting time comes.

Great photos should win regardless but it makes you wonder what would happen if the artist names were not published until after the contest.

 

[Mark J]

I've enjoyed this thread a great deal. And, I've learned a lot about how this forum works.... and how it doesn't work. lol

My last thought on this is this.......

I posted this thread with only one goal.....

to see if people would come together with ideas on how to improve on what is obviously an important part of Pbase....... the challenging of artsists to "show their stuff" and share their opinions on theirs and other works of art. Since I'm new here.... I still have a lot to learn. So without futher ado.....

I prepose we close this thread now after everyone reads the following VERY important message on the subject of voting...............

I vote that we vote to see if anyone wants to vote on how we should vote. Furthermore, once we've determined how we should vote, we should all then vote just to see if everyone participates in a vote. LOL

How's that??

The following message was sent to me regarding the voting process.
I want everyone to know... this is not the first person to express
this view.... how unfortunate.

Mark,
I feel the same way, and I only put down the artist name, if it
appeared under the thumbnail...oh well! I clicked on the picture to
see it large, but did not notice the artist name there.

I'm not going to vote again, it took way too long last night, if my
vote doesn't count, it just doesn't count, I can live with that.

I still enjoyed the Challenge!

We have this great website / forum for photography
We have great photographers
Why do we have to vote in such a backward time consuming way??

If challenges are a large part of this forum .... and I feel as
though it is, then can't someone come up with a better faster way
to do the voting?

How about a REAL voting template??
How about artists names under the thumb... not just the image

I'm sorry to make so much of this but, it was my first vote and, it
really was a long drawn out process. In this fast paced
technilogical world we live in, this sure is a primitive way of
doing this.

Any suggestions? otherwise, you are likely going to be missing
voters / participants in your future challenges..... just look at
how the person expressed themself in the above message.

Have a great day... I'm outa here for now.

Mark J.
--
Mark J.

--
cheers,
bluedot.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
In a nutshell, I'm a nutcase.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
http://www.pbase.com/nichijin