Pentax & Samsung

[KSV]

Anyone can tell me what relationship between them? One upon time it seems to be very tight, but does not like this anymore. Not only Samsung does not have K7 equivalent, but its new MX10 camera uses K-incompatible mount - IMHO biggest ever stupidity - it could appeal to lots of people with K lenses; adapter that does not exist yet (?) is good, but direct mount would be even better.
Anyone can share rumor?
Cheers

 

[Ared Mossinel]

Without going into the actual relationship...I would like to point out that your request for a direct mount on the NX10 would seem to contradict the point of the mirrorless interchangeable lens camera class. If they made it directly mount the K mount, the body would need to be significantly thicker. Arguably, it doesn't matter for larger zoom type lenses, but why would you prioritize the K20d over the NX10 in that case?

Anyone can tell me what relationship between them? One upon time it seems to be very tight, but does not like this anymore. Not only Samsung does not have K7 equivalent, but its new MX10 camera uses K-incompatible mount - IMHO biggest ever stupidity - it could appeal to lots of people with K lenses; adapter that does not exist yet (?) is good, but direct mount would be even better.
Anyone can share rumor?
Cheers

 

[Matthew Miller]

Yeah, the mount had to change. To me, the fact that they went with an incompatible flash system is a bigger sign for concern. No good reason to do that except that they're really going it alone.
--
Matthew Miller « http://mattdm.org/ »

 

[KSV]

.........I would like to point out that your request for a direct mount on the NX10 would seem to contradict the point of the mirrorless interchangeable lens camera class

Why?!?!?!? Register distance 25.5mm vs 45.5mm, just make mount 2cm thicker and bingo! - all of the sudden you've made camera with hundreds compatible lenses!
BTW ditto to flash

 

[BJL]

... just make mount 2cm thicker and bingo! - all of the sudden you've made camera with hundreds compatible lenses!

Samsung can get all the same compatibility through a K-mount adaptor ... plus the ability to make the cameras smaller and lighter when used with new non-SLR lens designs.

And there are clearly advantages in dropping the in-body AF motor and screw-driver connection in favor of in-lens AF motors (as has been done in every new system since Canon's EOS in the 1980's), and lenses not designed for use with the CD AF of mirrorless systems focus poorly with CD AF, and both of these things rule out full compatibility with K-mount lens. Look how poorly most 4/3 SLR lenses AF on Micro 4/3 bodies --- Panasonic does not even bother to offer AF with 4/3 SLR lenses that were not designed for CD AF, while Olympus m4/3 bodies offer only very slow AF with most 4/3 SLR lenses.

--
Smaller lenses, better in low light, more telephoto reach:
you can have any two at one time.

 

[KSV]

Samsung can get all the same compatibility through a K-mount adaptor ... plus the ability to make the cameras smaller and lighter when used with new non-SLR lens designs.

Adapter is better then nothing. Apart of that nothing good.

And there are clearly advantages in dropping the in-body AF motor and screw-driver connection in favor of in-lens AF motors (as has been done in every new system since Canon's EOS in the 1980's),

No-one disputing this argument - clearly only in-lens motor. Older ones could do with manual focus

and lenses not designed for use with the CD AF of mirrorless systems focus poorly with CD AF,

Sorry, but IMHO this has nothing to do to real life. Yes traditional phse AF found in (D)SLR better and faster, but it is NOTHING to do to motor in lens, but rather to algorithm in camera. Lenses cannot decide what to do - going forward of backward - camera does

and both of these things rule out full compatibility with K-mount lens. Look how poorly most 4/3 SLR lenses AF on Micro 4/3 bodies --- Panasonic does not even bother to offer AF with 4/3 SLR lenses that were not designed for CD AF, while Olympus m4/3 bodies offer only very slow AF with most 4/3 SLR lenses.

Because traditional (phase) AF far superior to P&S contrast AF, not because motor in lens

 

[KentG]

It's also a good business decision. Samsung is not in business to build a new camera that will sell thousnads of used Pentax lenses they will make no money off of. And why build a compact camera and then add almost an inch to the lens mount protrusion just to use lenses you will not make any money off of. And would have to add a motor to drive if you wanted AF. So instead they MAY make an adapter that may allow AF with SDM or 3rd party motor-in-lens lenses. But if they want to sell their own they will not make the adapter AF capable. Makes perfect business sense.

You have to realize that one reason Pentax has lost all of its market share from the old days is precisely its policy of making all the old lenses work in the new cameras. While it is a terrific example of a company looking out for it's existing customers its also a bad business decision for the company. Cameras are made to sell lenses not the otherway around. While all of us here love the compatability of using older lenses it has, in reality, been one of the factors that has put Pentax in it's current position. And don't think about mentioning Nikon as some of their best selling cameras have been the ones that were incompatible with the older AF lenses (no motor in body).
Kent Gittings

 

[Gazooma]

I agree. Clinging to the past, being compassionate/emotional and indecisive can be a problem in a fast changing technology driven world. Many people keep talking about the largest selection of lenses (including old lens that do not have full functionality), but the world does not care. If Pentax keep on listening to people here, e.g. those who want a FF camera to allow them use their lenses, and not look forward towards what can attract new buyers and what makes business sense, it could get worse.

 

[RogerMexico]

There is probably more old Canon glass out there than Pentax and that has never kept people from buying cameras that can only use EF lenses. I'm not sure how many photographers want to go through the menu to mount an older Pentax lens and then not have AF. It's sort of cool at first, but the IQ isn't particularly great and unless you are shooting something that is either incredibly slow or completely stationary, you will miss more shots while trying to get a correct focus.

 

[KentG]

Sometimes but it often boils down to experience. I started shooting motorsports in the days before AF even, back in the 60's. I won a big prop bet from a pro I know back in the 90's by going to an event with a Pentax Spotmatic F MD, motordrive, 250 exposure magazine back, and one lens, a Tamron SP 200-500/5.6 Adaptall-2 with a P/ES adapter so I could at least do open aperture metering. I got about 55% keepers out of that combo (would be higher if I slowed down the motordrive). If I had substituted a ZX-5n and battery grip and switched to the PK/A adapter so I could do trap focus I'm pretty sure I could have upped my percentage to about 70% because that is the kind of results I used to get with that combo when I shot it as my primary system. I have no problem panning with a manual lens and getting good shots. At the time I was using a Minolta Maxxum 9 and thanks to its omnidirectional predictive AF I could often surpass 85% keepers shooting with a Sigma 300/2.8 APO.
Kent Gittings

 

[gaddigad]

It's also a good business decision.

What's good for Samaung is not necessarily the right thing for Pentax. They are in a very different position.

Samsung is not in business to build a new camera that will sell thousnads of used Pentax lenses they will make no money off of. And why build a compact camera and then add almost an inch to the lens mount protrusion just to use lenses you will not make any money off of. And would have to add a motor to drive if you wanted AF. So instead they MAY make an adapter that may allow AF with SDM or 3rd party motor-in-lens lenses. But if they want to sell their own they will not make the adapter AF capable. Makes perfect business sense.

You have to realize that one reason Pentax has lost all of its market share from the old days is precisely its policy of making all the old lenses work in the new cameras. While it is a terrific example of a company looking out for it's existing customers its also a bad business decision for the company. Cameras are made to sell lenses not the otherway around. While all of us here love the compatability of using older lenses it has, in reality, been one of the factors that has put Pentax in it's current position.

How exactly? Backwards compatibility towards good old cheaper lenses has been one of the factors that brought me to the Pentax system. It's been one of the strongest relative advantages and differentiating factors over the competition. Backwards compatibility equates with loyalty, durability and trust, something a small company competing against established giants needs in heaps to persuade a new hesitatant customer.

And don't think about mentioning Nikon as some of their best selling cameras have been the ones that were incompatible with the older AF lenses (no motor in body).

Nikon is one of the big two and has been taking this position during the last few decades.

Kent Gittings

--
broken glass is really sharp
http://www.flickr.com/photos/gs-photos

 

[Roland Mabo]

The Samsung NX10 is a mirrorless camera and because of this it can't have K-mount because mirrorless cameras has different sensor to lens distance than cameras with mirrors. K-mount was designed for cameras with mirrors. Even if the NX10 had a mount that was technical identical to K-mount, except sensor/film to lens distance (the technical term for this is "registration distance"), the lenses would still require an adapter.

If Pentax releases a mirrorless camera, it too can't have standard K-mount because of the technical differencies between a camera with mirror (SLR/DSLR) and mirrorless cameras (Samsung NX10).

Samsung are spending their resources on the NX-line of new bodies and lenses and has therefore left K-mount for APS-C. Samsung will not release a new K-mount APS-C. They believe the mirrorless cameras are the future.

However, Samsung is said to be developing a 24x36 sensor and if they release this then it is likely that they will use K-mount.

--
Take care
R
http://www.flickr.com/photos/raphaelmabo

 

[justin23]

then its not as small, new lenses are not as small and people wouldn't buy it. Those who go for these mirrorless cameras really feel size is important here so 2 cm extra thinkness is a big difference.

.........I would like to point out that your request for a direct mount on the NX10 would seem to contradict the point of the mirrorless interchangeable lens camera class

Why?!?!?!? Register distance 25.5mm vs 45.5mm, just make mount 2cm thicker and bingo! - all of the sudden you've made camera with hundreds compatible lenses!
BTW ditto to flash

--
Justin
--------------------------------------------------------
Photobucket
http://s107.photobucket.com/albums/m313/justin-23/

 

[KSV]

Roland,

Are you sure that you talk business? NX10 uses APS-C sensor - this is what it renown for. And exactly why K-mount camera cannot be mirrorless? Consider Live View on some K-mount cameras - pretty much mirrorless (with mirror up). Surely, if one trying to make one compact, then it could be somewhat redesigned; I do accept argument that in NX10 style design compactness is paramount, but heck, saying that it is impossible to male mirrorless camera with K-mount is a bit of .... stretch

The Samsung NX10 is a mirrorless camera and because of this it can't have K-mount because mirrorless cameras has different sensor to lens distance than cameras with mirrors. K-mount was designed for cameras with mirrors. Even if the NX10 had a mount that was technical identical to K-mount, except sensor/film to lens distance (the technical term for this is "registration distance"), the lenses would still require an adapter.

If Pentax releases a mirrorless camera, it too can't have standard K-mount because of the technical differencies between a camera with mirror (SLR/DSLR) and mirrorless cameras (Samsung NX10).

Samsung are spending their resources on the NX-line of new bodies and lenses and has therefore left K-mount for APS-C. Samsung will not release a new K-mount APS-C. They believe the mirrorless cameras are the future.

However, Samsung is said to be developing a 24x36 sensor and if they release this then it is likely that they will use K-mount.

--
Take care
R
http://www.flickr.com/photos/raphaelmabo

 

[steephill]

Look at what happened to Contax. They froze out their manual focus customers by changing the mount to an incompatible AF mount and it killed the company. Their customer base was too small to withstand such a change and Pentax would also have suffered a similar fate if it did the same.

It is ironic that Zeiss has been born again as a supplier of manual focus lenses based on their original Contax designs for other mounts.

--
Steve

http://www.pbase.com/steephill

 

[Model Mike]

Roland,

Are you sure that you talk business? NX10 uses APS-C sensor - this is what it renown for. And exactly why K-mount camera cannot be mirrorless?

I don't think backwards compatibility should be seen as a huge issue.

As prices of mirrorless cameras drop, I think that we will see photographers who previously owed their allegiance to a single brand starting to look at multiple mirrorless systems, with each system being used according to need. In fact this is already happening - I've seen many comments from 5D users who get more use/fun out of their MFT systems, but still keep their old cams for special occasions (and fitness training!).
--
Mike
http://flickr.com/rc-soar

 

[Nicols]

…saying that it is impossible to male mirrorless camera with K-mount is a bit of .... stretch

It is not impossible, but it doesn't make much sense: the smaller registration distance that is possible without mirror mecanism is an advantage for lens construction, that can be much smaller and simpler, especially for wide angle. Why give away this advantage just to maintain an older mount standard developed for SLR.

Cheers - Klaus

 

[This is not a real name]

And don't think about mentioning Nikon as some of their best selling cameras have > been the ones that were incompatible with the older AF lenses (no motor in body).
Kent Gittings

Trouble is, Nikon and Pentax's relative positions are much older than the Nikon AFS (in lens motor) and certainly older than their D40 (first Nikon DSLR without in-body motor), suggesting in body v in lens AF motor has little to do with market share.

 

[Marc Sabatella]

Maybe I'm missing something obvious, but not only would artificially making the camera and lenses much larger than necessary just to preserve the K-mount registration distance have turned off those looking to a camera like this for its small size, but it also would have prevented the use of lenses for other mounts, thus cutting off a huge market. As it is, by keeping the registration distance short, adapters can be made for a much wider variety of lenses. Meaning the camera will potentially appeal to people with existing lenses of almost any brand - assuming any such adapters actually materialize, of course.

But the relevant to the OP, the fact that only the K-mount adapter is currently a reality is a sign of something, I suppose - primarily an acknowledgment that Samsung has already made some K-mount lenses they'd like to sell.

--
Marc Sabatella
http://www.marcsabatella.com/
Blog: http://marcsabatella.blogspot.com/
Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/marcsabatella/

 

[BJL]

and lenses not designed for use with the CD AF of mirrorless systems focus poorly with CD AF,

Sorry, but IMHO this has nothing to do to real life. Yes traditional phse AF found in (D)SLR better and faster, but it is NOTHING to do to motor in lens, but rather to algorithm in camera.

Real life shows that it is not only the CD AF algorithms that matter, but also the ability of the lens to respond to AF commands. The recent 4/3 SLR lenses designed to work with CD AF, for the sake of Live View on 4/3 SLRs, function far better with CD AF than the older 4/3 SLR lenses designed with only PD AF in mind. On Olympus m4/3 bodies, there is a big difference in AF performance between those two categories of lens, with the description "focus assist" applied to the older lenses.

CD AF requires different patterns of lens motion than PD AF, often with frequent small moves and reversals of directions, which favors different designs with less weight in the moving parts (both motor and lens elements)

Note: I am not saying that this is an advantage of motor in lens vs motor in body, but in other aspects of lens and AF motor design. Many AF in lens designs work badly with CD AF too, like those older 43/ SLR lenses. In fact, most SLR lenses give very sluggish AF performance when used with CD AF. AFAIK, no Canon, Nikon or Pentax DSLR gives AF in Live View mode anywhere near as good as Panasonic m4/3 bodies used with lenses designed for CD AF.

--
Smaller lenses, better in low light, more telephoto reach:
you can have any two at one time.