Nikon's Tech Manager posts to E-mail list

[Phil Dunne]

Let the buyer beware... The onus is on you as the buyer to fully understand your purchase and do the reasearch nessecary to make sure you will be happy. Did you not test it at the shop? That alone would have given you an indication of what to expect. I'm sorry but I have no sympathy for you.

I read plenty of posts from happy 5700 owners who are content to use the workarounds and take pictures instead of complaining about something that wasn't listed as a feature in the first place. It's your choice on how to spend your money, personally I'm not rich enough to be able to cash like that without doing a heck of a lot of research first.

If I were going to buy a ferrari I'd want to look under the bonnet first to make sure it wasn't a trabant....

--
Cheers
Phil

cp5000

 

[neil1314]

Let the buyer beware... The onus is on you as the buyer to fully
understand your purchase and do the reasearch nessecary to make
sure you will be happy. Did you not test it at the shop? That alone
would have given you an indication of what to expect. I'm sorry but
I have no sympathy for you.

I read plenty of posts from happy 5700 owners who are content to
use the workarounds and take pictures instead of complaining about
something that wasn't listed as a feature in the first place. It's
your choice on how to spend your money, personally I'm not rich
enough to be able to cash like that without doing a heck of a lot
of research first.

If I were going to buy a ferrari I'd want to look under the bonnet
first to make sure it wasn't a trabant....

I am wondering if I have got a rougue 5700 as I don't appear to have any issues with focusing in low light if I keep it steady locks real quick, maybe I should trade it in so I can get one like most other peoples. Or then again......

Neil --

Cheers
Phil

cp5000

 

[Hariette]

I think this thread needs to be refreshed. I am very curious to why this supposed-to-be-Nikon-Big-Head =David Dentry= has been ignoring this forum full of great Nikon cameras owners... A litttllle bit scarrrred are you David Dentry?

David Dentry (Nikon USA's Manager, Technical Information, Digital
Products) has recently posted a few messages to the Nikon 5700
E-mail list at Yahoo Groups. There isn't any "new" news in his
messages but it is encouraging to see him participating. If you
would like to read what has been posted (and exchanged), please
visit the Nikon5700 site here:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nikon5700/

You will likely have to join the group to be able to read any
messages.

Mark

 

[John Ferrier]

I think this thread needs to be refreshed. I am very curious to why
this supposed-to-be-Nikon-Big-Head =David Dentry= has been ignoring
this forum full of great Nikon cameras owners... A litttllle bit
scarrrred are you David Dentry?

Maybe he is just ignoring the little heads. Hariette, you have nothing to be scarrred about, do you?

JF

 

[Hariette]

I wouldn't be surprised if the little and big heads at Nikon (or other big brands) have to sign a contract stipulating "I will NOT post in dpreview forums".
Cheers

I think this thread needs to be refreshed. I am very curious to why
this supposed-to-be-Nikon-Big-Head =David Dentry= has been ignoring
this forum full of great Nikon cameras owners... A litttllle bit
scarrrred are you David Dentry?

Maybe he is just ignoring the little heads. Hariette, you have
nothing to be scarrred about, do you?

JF

 

[John Ferrier]

I wouldn't be surprised if the little and big heads at Nikon (or
other big brands) have to sign a contract stipulating "I will NOT
post in dpreview forums".
Cheers

I don't know. However, we both know that they read the dpreview forums. You and I at least get to enjoy participating in these forums.

Take care.

JF

 

[kecohen]

First of all, don't refer to me in your post......I do much
research and have been an active member of these forums for over
two years.

If you didn't want people to infer that you didn't do your homework, then you mislead readers by jumping to the defense of one who admitted to having done just that, and implied it even further with your opening statement:

"I think we need to remember that the large majority of digital camera buyers do NOT read these forums or reviews before they buy." That's sufficient cause for any reasonable person to conclude that you count yourself among "the large majority."

I have both the Nikon 5700 and the Minolta D7Hi. And
guess what? The Minolta performs MUCH better focusing in low
light......which is all I was saying, whether you like that or not.

Of course it does. It's zoom is only equivalent to 200mm and it has a max aperture at full zoom of f/3.5. Compare that to the Nikon with 280mm and f/4.2. Back off the zoom on the Nikon to comparable zoom and aperture, and you'll have similar results, if not better. It is, after all, the amount of light reflected off the subject and entering the lens that is the most important factor for automatic focus. The "problem" isn't what the camera doesn't have, but what it does have.

Here's something you probably haven't considered: so what if it did have AF assist? It might be able to lock on a subject, but if you still have camera shake, what good is it? Not getting focus is a warning, just like a flashing green light, shutter or aperture indicator--the camera is communicating with you. By the same token, are you aware that stabilizing the camera in those low light/contrast situations will get focus lock, will get it a whole lot quicker, and will prevent the motion blur resulting from camera shake?

This isn't a workaround. It's the necessary technique for using a very long lens; The high maginification exaggerates everything, not just the optics. It is subject to physical laws. i.e., the sciences of physics and optics. The fact that the lens is lightweight and small may be deceiving, but the laws still applly.

As for your premise that "the large majority of digital camera buyers do NOT read these forums or reviews before they buy," I would strongly disagree. I think you will find that most people interested in buying a $1000 camera do indeed spend a good deal of time reading reviews---mostly in magazines and more than likely on-line as well. I don't know how you arrived at that statement, and I"ll humbly concede if you show me the statistics to prove it. But the huge sales figures for the annual buyers' guides to consumer cameras and electronics should give you some idea of the enormous number of people who are doing the research.

So quit with the overly defensive responses...

No, my position is not defensive, merely logical. Sorry you took offense, but I'm just telling it like it is. I have no emotional stake in the argument. I do, however, happen to be tired of people bashing the camera when it's obvious they don't truly understand it: AF assist is unnecessary at 200mm equivalent and below. Above 200mm, it won't help. Only a tripod will help.

--
Karen

...but if you try sometimes, you just might find, you get what you need.
Minolta 7000i, accessories and lenses, lenses, lenses; CP5700, TC15ED,
Kenko KUT-300 Hi, SB80X Speedlight, Epson Stylus 980N, Epson 7600
(shared), Epson Expression 1680 w/ transparency unit, Tamron Fotovix
60WU....
http://www.e-designarts.com
http://www.pbase.com/kecohen/

 

[Austin_316]

Koo22, why waste your time on a narrow-minded troll who can only see one scenario. She has no idea what she is talking about except that she thinks others will be on her side so that she can attack you as she has others.

You, I and most of the people, I’m sure led an exhaustive hunt for data comparing cameras before spending our hard earned money.

She proves it when she says, “Nor can you seriously compare the Minolta D7Hi--it doesn't have as long a zoom” Obviously she has NO IDEA that the 7i has an f2.8, 7.1x Zoom, only .9x less than the 5700 and likely it's closest compeditor and was my close, second choice.

She proves it when she says, “and it doesn't have the quality of glass” Wow is she off the mark, Quote from Minolta, “This Minolta GT lens is a high-performance 7X, f/2.8 – f3.5 apochromatic (APO) zoom. With enough resolution to produce a fine image on a SEVEN-MILLION pixel CCD(Hey you! That’s 7,000,000 pixels rez), this lens features anomalous dispersion (AD) glass and aspheric elements to ensure sharp, high-contrast, and distortion-free images at any focal length.” The same features that they have used on there finest 35mm film cameras for years. This aint no Sears camera!

She proves it when she says, “nor is the build anywhere near the same quality” I’m sorry, showing your ignorance AGAIN, Quote, “The DiMAGE 7i is housed in a lightweight magnesium-alloy body. Magnesium alloy provides the benefits of rugged die-cast construction without the cumbersome weight. Magnesium is about 30% lighter than aluminum and 65% lighter than steel.

She proves it when she says, “The CP5700's focus "problem" of which you speak is almost exclusively the result of improper technique in using full or near full zoom--you're trying to focus in poor light to start with… Blah, Blah, Blah…” WRONG. Let me tell you about the Minolta focusing system, Quote from Minolta, “Within the focus frames are three AF sensors including a central crosshair sensor; the crosshair sensor ensures accurate focusing regardless of subject contrast. The AF system works in low-light, twilight, or dimly lit interiors, without the need for an AF illuminator. The monitor and viewfinder images are automatically amplified so the subject is always visible.

As you can see, I HAVE DONE MY HOMEWORK! DON'T EVEN get me started on the quality of the Fuji and Olympus Digicams.

The Nikon 5700 has NO EXCUSE FOR NOT BEING A BETTER CAMERA, and YOU have NO EXCUSE for not being a better person, you make personal attacks every chance you get.

Get a LIFE and get over it! Go look in the mirror and tell yourself again, “I am a good person, I help people in need and I would never criticize or insult someone for no reason.”

Quit posting the 5700 problems and this might not keep happening. You were all so willing to go after the Nikon bashing SSony guys, why didn't you stop there? Why does this go on? STOP THESE ATTACKS NOW!
"May he who is without sin cast the first stone"

Michael Austin,
Cincinnati, Ohio

 

[Austin_316]

I too wonder why he hasn't come by, I'm quite sure he knows that we exist. I can say that being in the IT industry that the mainstream prople use MSN, Yahoo and AOL for ease of use (P&S'ers) as do the movie stars etc... We here are not in this mainstream, but it's fine with me. I'm not a follower.
Michael

Ron T

David Dentry has been increasingly active on the previously
mentioned Yahoo Groups E-mail list. He has single handedly
convinced me that Nikon IS listening and that some sort of
improvement is forthcoming. He is, of course, sometimes limited in
exactly what he can say but it is pretty easy to read between the
lines and draw some conclusions.

BTW, yes, some of the posts there have been pretty angry. And I
applaud Mr. Dentry for his diplomacy and tact in dealing with the
angry mob.

Mark

--
Michael

 

[Austin_316]

Why Hariette, what an interesting point, wonder why they took the other fork? Perhaps to avoid the bumpy road ahead... The path of least resistance.

Ron T

David Dentry has been increasingly active on the previously
mentioned Yahoo Groups E-mail list. He has single handedly
convinced me that Nikon IS listening and that some sort of
improvement is forthcoming. He is, of course, sometimes limited in
exactly what he can say but it is pretty easy to read between the
lines and draw some conclusions.

BTW, yes, some of the posts there have been pretty angry. And I
applaud Mr. Dentry for his diplomacy and tact in dealing with the
angry mob.

Mark

--
Michael

 

[Austin_316]

It's not that bad, (the focus I mean) I think that, should be a point but so many are hell bent on insults that they can't take a second and talk to someone. Jarrell talked to us and set up a simple test. And it works! If you set the AF area mode (page 112 in your manual) to manual you get 5 focus zones, Setting the second option, "Auto Focus Mode" from the default to, "Single AF" this stops the camera from continuously focusing to only focusing when you "Half Press" the shutter release button. Next I use the "Focus confirmation "ON" this makes the EVF or monitor "outline" the sharp edges when they are in focus, (looks like real harsh unsharp masking).

Using these tips I haven't had a bad shot because of the focus issue. Don't get me wrong, my other cameras lock of without AF assist lights in the same low room light.

Also if I know My "Distance to Subject" isn't going to change I use Manual focus or AF/AE lock. This is fool proof.
Once again, thanks Jarrell for your time, understanding and kindness.

Michael

I've noticed that in the main page http://www.nikonusa.com , the 5700 has
been long gone in their introduction photography chapter. It says
"Get carried away with the award-winning Coolpix 2500 and its inner
swivel. Step up to 16 scene modes with Coolpix 4500. Take hold of
the future with the awesome power of Coolpix 5000. Don't miss the
powerful 6.1 effective megapixel digital SLR camera, D100. Realize
your photographic vision with the stylishly compact N65 film SLR."
and no mention of the newer 5700!
Hey what would you say, Dr Nikon?

This is obviously because the 5700 is such a disappointment to
Nikon they are on the verge of pulling it from the market!!!

Just joking!! Please don't flame me for my impudence.

They also don't mention the 3500 and 4300 which are even newer than
the 5700.

DCuser
--
950/coolpix2500/cp5000

--
Michael

 

[Austin_316]

Adrian, that’s my whole point, if we don't complain, Nikon will do less than they do now. I'm not looking for trouble. I just want them to take responsibility for this issue. I never asked for an assist light, the Minolta and Fuji works fine without lights. I have read the customer reviews on Olympus and MOST of them complain about poor focusing too. I'm sure we are not the only people unhappy about this but I don't expect to be attacked by other Nikon owners telling me that this camera is fine and I'm a moron that can't use a camera.

The fact that so many people have complained here and now we are hearing about more complaints on Yahoo, How many people simply put up with it and we don’t hear from them at all or don’t know who to complain to. I refused the first camera I looked at in the store because of erratic focusing. They told me that it was because a customer must have set it on continuous focus. He set a new one to half press focus and it looked good to me. Maybe some are better than others. Mine is very unpredictable, you can never be sure what you will get. Manually selecting my “auto focus area” has helped lots but I would like Nikon to rethink the camera some.

Some of the add-ons like measurements on the manual focus scale and other changes would be nice. I'd settle for a little better focus. I'd rather have a "Spot" focus zone in the center rather than the 5 zones but I can live with it. The focus is usable, not acceptable or good.
Michael

It is disappointing to see arguments like his - thousands of
customers did not have problems... HOw would NIkon know that? David
should know that Nikon customers not only expect not to have
problems, but they expect true, good quality. I have a 5700 and am
frustrated with the lack of focus assist. Probably because I didn't
complain, or I don't consider it a big problem, they count me among
those satisfied customers whom they use as examples to deny the
focus issue.

Yes, I think the focus is acceptable but far from what's expected
from Nikon quality. Again - they should understand, if they want to
remain at the top, that when customers buy a Nikon they don't
expect not to have problems, they expect quality. Otherwise, they
would buy a .. Sony? (just kidding, and a bit envious on Sony's
focus (not picture quality though !))

--
http://www.pbase.com/adriank

 

[Mykl Devlin]

No, my position is not defensive, merely logical. Sorry you took
offense, but I'm just telling it like it is. I have no emotional
stake in the argument. I do, however, happen to be tired of people
bashing the camera when it's obvious they don't truly understand
it: AF assist is unnecessary at 200mm equivalent and below. Above
200mm, it won't help. Only a tripod will help.

--
Karen

Karen, I take it from your list of equipment there that you do own a cp5700? Have you used it to photograph something indoors at night?

For me, taking normal "snap shots" with the built in flash, in a room with a 60 watt bulb, the AF is unacceptable.

Even when prefocussing on areas of maximum contrast and using the camera at zooms close to the 35mm equivalent, the camera does not lock on. If it does lock on there is a real chance that it has locked onto areas well outside the focus area.

There is no real method of doing a manual focus, because the EVF does not let you see what you are focussing on, and prefocussing by distance is hard because there is no scale on the focus bar.

You yourself have said that people buying a $1000 dollar camera ($2.5k for us in Australia), will do research. Surely the same argument says that a lot of them are likely to be proficient at the use of a camera? It is aimed at the prosumer end of the market, and that is where most of the buyers will be..... people who can use a camera.... and yet the complaints persist... surely there must be something in it?

I am happy with nearly every aspect of the CP5700, but the focus in lowish light, is not up to the standard of a $50 point and shoot camera.

Mykl

 

[Ken.]

I am happy with nearly every aspect of the CP5700, but the focus
in lowish light, is not up to the standard of a $50 point and shoot
camera.

How about a $12.00 disposable camera.
--
http://www.pbase.com/ken_5

 

[Antony Smith]

A $12 or even $50 point and shoot camera, with a 35-280mm zoom? Where do I get one of those? (only kidding, but you've got to compare like for like to some extent). Tony S

Mykl Devlin wrote:> > > > I am happy with nearly every aspect of the CP5700, but the focus> > in lowish light, is not up to the standard of a $50 point and shoot> > camera.> > How about a $12.00 disposable camera.> --> http://www.pbase.com/ken_5

 

[Adrian Calin]

and also, just like you, I was intimidated by aggressive responses just because I dared expressing my opinion. Preaches about what is a good camera, personal attacks, lessons about what "prosumer means" and why it is I, as a P&S photographer, am responsible for all....

I was only upset that Nikon completely denies an issue which in my view is there. I like the camera and overall I am verry happy with it. If I wasn't I would sell it and buy another one - I guess I wouldn't lose too much in terms of money. I am not happy with manufacturers who instead of trying to meet customer's higher expectations just dismiss them. And I didn't like Nikon's managers using the argument of customers who don't complain officially (like me) to indicate "thousands of satisfied customers"....

But from this simple discussion to the whole series of angry responses, some (not all) of them personal, is a long way. Pitty. That's another reason why I appreciate so much participants such as Jarrell who although express clear opinions know how to do it without offending others.

Anyway - let's move on. The forum is still a very useful source of information, one of the best available. Let's enjoy it !

Adrian

--
http://www.pbase.com/adriank

 

[MarkP133639]

Seems that those who are raising this issue are saying "let the supplier beware" (or aware) - since they arent buyer anymore they are owners.. Brand loyalty is important to manufacturers and its hard to establish and easy to lose. Most manufacuturers would welcome complaint so they can address it rather than let buyers disappear without a warning - regardless of a percieved or real problem. Many of the members of this forum are long term Nikon buyers - progressing from model to model as they are released.

I guess Nikon monitors this forum - who knows. It would be nice to see Nikon appear here and comment - though I wouldn't take that job.

The complaints here don't hurt my photography and I don't think Nikon would want dissatisfaction to be censored. I'm generally happy with the 5700 but would not complaint if its features (especially focus) were improved.

MarkP

Let the buyer beware... The onus is on you as the buyer to fully
understand your purchase and do the reasearch nessecary to make
sure you will be happy. Did you not test it at the shop? That alone
would have given you an indication of what to expect. I'm sorry but
I have no sympathy for you.

I read plenty of posts from happy 5700 owners who are content to
use the workarounds and take pictures instead of complaining about
something that wasn't listed as a feature in the first place. It's
your choice on how to spend your money, personally I'm not rich
enough to be able to cash like that without doing a heck of a lot
of research first.

If I were going to buy a ferrari I'd want to look under the bonnet
first to make sure it wasn't a trabant....

--
Cheers
Phil

cp5000

 

[Mark simms]

Well, the "angry mob" is probably about to get angrier....
as I just saw where the 5700 has been REDUCED in price by about 20%...
now going for $995 at Executive Cameras.
This is always a bad sign for such a new camera.

 

[Jim Campbell]

a message in the yahoo forum stating that if you have an issue with a Nikon camera you need to post it via tech support. He even suggested that a US Mail complaint to Nikon USA will get more attention than email. He seems to indicate that very little if any attention is paid to complaints made in this venue and I think we all know why. Personally, I think if one wanted to really make an impact the best thing to do is write a letter and bullet the problems they are having with the product.

Dentry said that his participation in the yahoo fourm is on his own time and against the advise of his peers at Nikon because of the beating one takes in this type of forum. Dentry further said that he usually posts in the SLR areas but, he would continue to post at yahoo if he could offer useful information. I wish he would post here also as the yahoo forum is a pain in the ass to use. Maybe if we all send a polite email inviting him to stop by....

One does have to wonder why product managers don't lurk in the forums more, I know I do for my industry. Further, why do the problems many of us post about never show up in the main stream media reviews and online reviews. I think an article in digital camera or shutterbug with a headline THE 5700 HAS A LONG LIST OF COMPLAINTS would quickly get some attention - at the cost of advertising maybe, an that's the rest of the answer.

David Dentry (Nikon USA's Manager, Technical Information, Digital
Products) has recently posted a few messages to the Nikon 5700
E-mail list at Yahoo Groups. There isn't any "new" news in his
messages but it is encouraging to see him participating. If you
would like to read what has been posted (and exchanged), please
visit the Nikon5700 site here:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nikon5700/

You will likely have to join the group to be able to read any
messages.

Mark

 

[kecohen]

No, my position is not defensive, merely logical. Sorry you took
offense, but I'm just telling it like it is. I have no emotional
stake in the argument. I do, however, happen to be tired of people
bashing the camera when it's obvious they don't truly understand
it: AF assist is unnecessary at 200mm equivalent and below. Above
200mm, it won't help. Only a tripod will help.

--
Karen

Karen, I take it from your list of equipment there that you do own
a cp5700? Have you used it to photograph something indoors at
night?
Even when prefocussing on areas of maximum contrast and using the
camera at zooms close to the 35mm equivalent, the camera does not
lock on. If it does lock on there is a real chance that it has
locked onto areas well outside the focus area.

Yes, I have. My camera has no difficulty as long as I do not zoom all the way to the maximum 71.2 (280mm equiv), and/or I use a tripod to steady it. The photographer's rule of thumb (for heavier, 35mm film cameras) is that, to truly freeze your action, your shutter speed should be at least the equivalent of the reciprocal of the focal length of the lens. For telephoto above 200mm (equiv.) the rule is 2x the reciprocal of the focal length. Think now, if that is the rule for heavier cameras, how would you apply it to one as light and more difficult to stabilize as the 5700?

I can nearly guarantee that most the time your camera is focusing "on areas outside the focus area," that the camera is in fact focused, but you are shooting a person, and what you are experiencing is not lack of focus, but motion blur. People move, even when they are sitting perfectly still--their hearts are pulsing at a minimum of 60 beats/min. And they are breathing. Therefore, without a tripod you are limited to a shutter speed of no less than 1/60 to freeze focus on them. As a consequence to a too slow shutter, the objects that aren't moving (and are still within your DOF) will be perfectly focused, while the subjects that are moving even fractionally, will be blurred.

There is no real method of doing a manual focus, because the EVF
does not let you see what you are focussing on, and prefocussing by
distance is hard because there is no scale on the focus bar.

No argument there.

You yourself have said that people buying a $1000 dollar camera
($2.5k for us in Australia), will do research. Surely the same
argument says that a lot of them are likely to be proficient at the
use of a camera? It is aimed at the prosumer end of the market,
and that is where most of the buyers will be..... people who can
use a camera.... and yet the complaints persist... surely there
must be something in it?

There is much difference in levels of proficiency with a camera. People who are most accustomed to a point and shoot camera, or people who have no prior experience with long telephotos cannot be said to be proficient with a camera that has one.

Anecdotally, my daughter's friend was killed in a car accident recently. He was accustomed to driving a sports car. He and his brother swapped vehicles for the day. He had difficulty adjusting to the power, size and weight of the truck. On a narrow road with no paved shoulder, his right tire went off the road surface into the dirt. He over-corrected, pulling the truck directly into oncoming traffic. He and the other driver were killed. A child in the other car who had been securely confined in a car seat barely survived. Neither vehicle was going over the speed limit.
There is no substitute for experience.

--
Karen

...but if you try sometimes, you just might find, you get what you need.
Minolta 7000i, accessories and lenses, lenses, lenses; CP5700, TC15ED,
Kenko KUT-300 Hi, SB80X Speedlight, Epson Stylus 980N, Epson 7600
(shared), Epson Expression 1680 w/ transparency unit, Tamron Fotovix
60WU....
http://www.e-designarts.com
http://www.pbase.com/kecohen/