Nikon Z9 - Buffer Issue Solved | Work Around ????

[greendog]

Hi everyone, this is an interesting thread that I think just affected me last night for the first time.

I was out shooting a soccer match with my typical settings including 20fps bursts. A few times my Z9 became unresponsive and when I would press the "play" button or the "menu" button on the back, the camera would take another burst of photos. Really weird. It would eventually return to normal and once or twice I quickly removed and put back the battery.

This morning I was thinking about it again and remember that I did decide to try out "pre-capture" for the first time. Not sure if that could have contributed to the issue, but wanted to add it to this thread in case anyone else has noticed the lock-up issue while using that setting.

 

[Horshack]

Given how fast the cards write, and how long it takes to start actually hitting the buffer (to where it doesn't clear instantly), I have a lot of questions about how people are shooting that they run into this problem.

As stated, I have tried to replicate the issue. I have not. In normal shooting, I physically can't outrun the buffer. Even with raw plus jpg, it takes 3 seconds to slow down, and then I stop and the buffer is clear again.

So my question is, exactly how are people hitting this situation, given using a fast enough card (in my experience) prevents the issue?

Intermittent timing-related firmware bugs don't have structure or rules, like "shouldn't fail if the buffer doesn't run out". If it conditions leading to the camera hang were easily discoverable then it would have been disclosed by now.

Moreover, I'm going to quote one of the wisest things I've ever heard about digital electronics from my lead engineer back in 1982 (Lee Felsenstein): "At some level all digital becomes analog again." He was referring to the time it takes a signal to change from 0 to 1, where it is some unknown "intermediary" value. My guess is that it will eventually come down to something is there's a brief moment when the data is not in a known state or the clock not correct. This could then end up in some cases producing an "out of range" value and triggers an incorrect execution. That's exactly the type of thing that hackers look for, by the way.

Yep. Chasing critical timing bugs / race conditions in high-speed embedded systems is something I had to do my entire career. I'll tell you a story about one of them. We had a RAID system with embedded 2.5" disk drives from a well-known Japanese manufacturer. We had a customer reporting a very intermittent data corruption issue - about once a month they'd get a single instance of filesystem corruption out of a large pool of installations. The proverbial needle in the haystack. After many iterations of adding layers of debug tracing and history logic I finally discovered an I/O pattern that would induce the disk drive to return the wrong data for a single read I/O out of thousands of attempts with that same I/O pattern. I literally was issuing the same set of I/Os over and over again and only once out of maybe 100k attempts it produced the wrong data.

After working with the drive manufacturer we finally root caused the issue. During certain seek timings in which the heads were moving across the platters, the drive would pick up the wrong embedded servo information that it reads while the heads are still moving into position. It was an optimization to reduce seek and rotational latency but by not allowing the heads to fully settle the drive was intermittently picking up the servo information on the adjacent track, causing its seek to settle on the wrong track and read the wrong data.

That one took a few weeks of testing and a three month trip to Japan to figure out

That's a good one. I remember power-down stiction problems causing heads to be ripped off when the drive spins back up. I'm dating myself

 

[just Tony]

Wether its common or not its still a big problem for sports and other high FPS shooters, and clearly shouldn't happen.

Getting Nikon to replicate it so they can see the issue is something else, I am hopeful this is just a software issue rather than a memory controller issue.

The perspective of someone who has earned a living as a tester of tech products: If this issue is something that predestines most units to never have the problem, and a tiny minority of units to occasionally do, then Nikon might have a difficult time locating such a rare body on their own.

If that is indeed the case, then there is a path that might kill two birds with one stone:

1. Nikon gets a vetted replacement body into the hands of a working pro who has been frustrated with their unit, getting them back in business.

2. The problematic body goes back to Nikon for testing.

There’s no guarantee that this would help, but I’d sure consider trying it as one of multiple approaches. That has been fruitful at two of my past employers. And it usually correlates to a rare hardware defect for what that’s worth.

Lets hope that Thoms and the other shooters who have experienced this have mangaged to get some form of contact in Nikon to at least raise the issue.

The problem I see is that the firmware side of things seems to be the almost vault like status it has in Nikon, where you have no idea if something has been reported and if any progress has been made.

Lets hope that any future releases (which hopefully aren't far off) have got a fix for this, because I can see how bigger problem it can be, as I used to shoot Sports (Motor Bikes) and I would be pretty miffed if my camera kept locking up! It was bad enough with the Nikon D2h which failed on me some many times Nikon replaced it with a D2hs.

Similar to my suggestion above.

--
Wag more; bark less.

 

[L Cunningham]

Thank you so much for standing firm. It took a lot of reading to get to where you've made people understand that it's not a battery or card issue. Significantly, when you've changed them all and have newer ones to use with the same problem happening. I sure wish I could afford a different brand body and lens to use when it happens. I'm so frustrated.

I photograph dog agility trails in RAW format and in bursts. It's the same work I've been doing since the camera was new, and there were no issues then. I use Delkin Black memory cards and have one brand new one and many others that range from a few months old to a couple of years. The newest ones haven't had much use as I spend months doing finish processing to my work. It's the same with batteries. I have 4 of them, ranging from the original to a new one. The issue happens regardless of what I'm using and is very random. Sometimes, this occurs when there should be no buffering at all, just in the middle of a burst that the camera handled fine over a year ago. Of course, it happens precisely when I miss the "money shot." It's not like I can change brands at this point, although after being a lifelong Nikon shooter for 50 years, I'm sure thinking about it. Being initially thrilled with the Z9, I've invested so much into lenses that I'm sick thinking about it, and I no longer have any other income as I did when I was younger.

I have an unopened box with a Z8 that I just got delivered for a backup body and now I'm thinking that the new one needs to be returned. Please, if anyone has found the solution, I'd greatly appreciate it. I was going to send my camera in for "repair." Maybe that won't help either?

Thanks for your help!

 

[L Cunningham]

Thank you, Thom!!!!!

I just spent an hour reading this thread. Add one more person to the list of people with the issue.

I don't make enough money to easily fix this. I've been shooting Nikon for decades. I shoot dogs doing sports, and losing my best shots makes me sick. As much as I love my full array of Z lenses, I'm seriously considering changing brands and going without some of the range that I spent years saving to afford. Please Nikon....pretty please fix this!

 

[James Grove]

Thank you so much for standing firm. It took a lot of reading to get to where you've made people understand that it's not a battery or card issue. Significantly, when you've changed them all and have newer ones to use with the same problem happening. I sure wish I could afford a different brand body and lens to use when it happens. I'm so frustrated.

I photograph dog agility trails in RAW format and in bursts. It's the same work I've been doing since the camera was new, and there were no issues then. I use Delkin Black memory cards and have one brand new one and many others that range from a few months old to a couple of years. The newest ones haven't had much use as I spend months doing finish processing to my work. It's the same with batteries. I have 4 of them, ranging from the original to a new one. The issue happens regardless of what I'm using and is very random. Sometimes, this occurs when there should be no buffering at all, just in the middle of a burst that the camera handled fine over a year ago. Of course, it happens precisely when I miss the "money shot." It's not like I can change brands at this point, although after being a lifelong Nikon shooter for 50 years, I'm sure thinking about it. Being initially thrilled with the Z9, I've invested so much into lenses that I'm sick thinking about it, and I no longer have any other income as I did when I was younger.

I have an unopened box with a Z8 that I just got delivered for a backup body and now I'm thinking that the new one needs to be returned. Please, if anyone has found the solution, I'd greatly appreciate it. I was going to send my camera in for "repair." Maybe that won't help either?

Thanks for your help!

I dont think its a hardware issue, but rather a software one, which we are all hoping will be fixed in any further FW update to the Z9,

Alas I have also had a lock up with my Z8 in a similar way, the camera locks up using high FPS. Only once, but again I wonder if its a software issue?

 

[tvstaff]

Thank you so much for standing firm. It took a lot of reading to get to where you've made people understand that it's not a battery or card issue. Significantly, when you've changed them all and have newer ones to use with the same problem happening. I sure wish I could afford a different brand body and lens to use when it happens. I'm so frustrated.

I photograph dog agility trails in RAW format and in bursts. It's the same work I've been doing since the camera was new, and there were no issues then. I use Delkin Black memory cards and have one brand new one and many others that range from a few months old to a couple of years. The newest ones haven't had much use as I spend months doing finish processing to my work. It's the same with batteries. I have 4 of them, ranging from the original to a new one. The issue happens regardless of what I'm using and is very random. Sometimes, this occurs when there should be no buffering at all, just in the middle of a burst that the camera handled fine over a year ago. Of course, it happens precisely when I miss the "money shot." It's not like I can change brands at this point, although after being a lifelong Nikon shooter for 50 years, I'm sure thinking about it. Being initially thrilled with the Z9, I've invested so much into lenses that I'm sick thinking about it, and I no longer have any other income as I did when I was younger.

I have an unopened box with a Z8 that I just got delivered for a backup body and now I'm thinking that the new one needs to be returned. Please, if anyone has found the solution, I'd greatly appreciate it. I was going to send my camera in for "repair." Maybe that won't help either?

Thanks for your help!

There is no fix as of now. I just shot another show this week and "everyone" there, like me... all professional high volume 1000's per day shooters ALL, said the freezing is their main gripe with the Z9.

I'm also sorry I bought the Z9 for fashion runway. An R1 at 50MP please.

However if you shoot video.... Z9 hard to beat















--
Fashion, Fashion BTS, Fashion Editorial, Sports, Athlete Portrature, Editorial and Creative Portraits are my world. Shoot Canon, Nikon & Fuji. https://www.kissmykite.com/nyfw-photographers-tony-filson

 

[James Grove]

All we can do is hope that Nikon have figured out the problem and will fix it in a new firmware update, it’s been a while since V5 so maybe trouble shooting has taken a lot longer and maybe more code re writing?



My Z8 has locked up once as well, and I know of another with the same issue, it’s the same issue in the Z9

 

[WWeber]

Hello tvstaff,

now with FW 5.10 out, did you have a chance to test with the new FW?

If so, is this issue solved?

 

[TechStrider]

Yes, WWeber, this is an important thread.

Yes, TVstaff and others have been active in this forum about this issue.

Unfortunately this is one of those threads with many branching overlays that make it hard to find hard bits of info.

I have tried to initiate a thread for us all to use to focus on this very issue and would ask again that we try to use it so that it is easier to find and document our collective experiences over time. Because the issue is so sporadic for most of us I think it will take many thousands of bursts to find out how much improvement has been attained.

That thread is:

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/68056556

Thanks to all

 

[L Cunningham]

Thank you so much for your response!!! Shooting dog agility trials, I'm having multiple lock-ups. However, I'm also shooting a lot of frames in burst mode, up to 8,000 within an hour and a half, and repeat that for 10 hours. It wasn't happening until the March update. I'm sad to hear it's happening with your Z8 because I just bought one for my backup camera...ugh! I sure hope they fix it!

 

[James Grove]

Thank you so much for your response!!! Shooting dog agility trials, I'm having multiple lock-ups. However, I'm also shooting a lot of frames in burst mode, up to 8,000 within an hour and a half, and repeat that for 10 hours. It wasn't happening until the March update. I'm sad to hear it's happening with your Z8 because I just bought one for my backup camera...ugh! I sure hope they fix it!

Haven't had much of a chance to test the Z9 5.10 update, but it does mention some fixes that might help including a cfexpress fix.

I suppose we may see a Z8 update in the New Year, hopefully with the same fix.

 

[L Cunningham]

Thank you! I'll have to put the update on my to-do list...