Nikon mirrorless system

[rhlpetrus]

Now that D850 is here, and nothing else is moving the rumormills, Nikonrumors is starting the discussion:

Let's start talking about the upcoming Nikon mirrorless camera - Nikon Rumors

Let’s start talking about the upcoming Nikon mirrorless camera I have been reporting about the new Nikon mirrorless camera for over a year now, but I still don’t have any reliable technical details. Several different scenarios are possible: Nikon will bring back the Nikon 1 with a new and better...

nikonrumors.com

Most interesting is the patent they show for a lens adapter that includes some sort of pellicle mirror for AF with F-mount lenses.




From Nikonrumors

This would imply the system will likely introduce a new mount, which seems to be a technical requirement for ML to work fully. Just removing the mirror system from an F-mount dlsr doens't look like a good idea.

Your thoughts?

--
Renato.

Renato Pedrosa

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www.flickr.com

OnExposure member

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Good shooting and good luck
(after Ed Murrow)

 

[david vella]

Now that D850 is here, and nothing else is moving the rumormills, Nikonrumors is starting the discussion:

https://nikonrumors.com/2017/09/03/...ut-the-upcoming-nikon-mirrorless-camera.aspx/

Most interesting is the patent they show for a lens adapter that includes some sort of pellicle mirror for AF with F-mount lenses.


From Nikonrumors

This would imply the system will likely introduce a new mount, which seems to be a technical requirement for ML to work fully. Just removing the mirror system from an F-mount dlsr doens't look like a good idea.

Your thoughts?

New mount and dedicated purpose designed primes or it will fail .

An F mount adaptor for those that insist on using DSLR lenses regardless of their suitability.

--
Renato.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rhlpedrosa/
OnExposure member
http://www.onexposure.net/
Good shooting and good luck
(after Ed Murrow)

 

[rhlpetrus]

Now that D850 is here, and nothing else is moving the rumormills, Nikonrumors is starting the discussion:

https://nikonrumors.com/2017/09/03/...ut-the-upcoming-nikon-mirrorless-camera.aspx/

Most interesting is the patent they show for a lens adapter that includes some sort of pellicle mirror for AF with F-mount lenses.


From Nikonrumors

This would imply the system will likely introduce a new mount, which seems to be a technical requirement for ML to work fully. Just removing the mirror system from an F-mount dlsr doens't look like a good idea.

Your thoughts?

New mount and dedicated purpose designed primes or it will fail .

An F mount adaptor for those that insist on using DSLR lenses regardless of their suitability.

--
Renato.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rhlpedrosa/
OnExposure member
http://www.onexposure.net/
Good shooting and good luck
(after Ed Murrow)

As Thom explained in the NR forum, the adapter is needed for the telephoto lenses designed for standard PDAF. This is a good sign that the new mount and cameras will be fully functional, useful for people owning all sorts of current F-mount lenses, not some sort of amateurish line like the Nikon 1 system. Or at least I am hoping that will be the case.

--
Renato.

Renato Pedrosa

Explore Renato Pedrosa’s 937 photos on Flickr!

www.flickr.com

OnExposure member

http://www.onexposure.net/

Good shooting and good luck
(after Ed Murrow)

 

[ClaudiusTheGod]

Now that D850 is here, and nothing else is moving the rumormills, Nikonrumors is starting the discussion:

https://nikonrumors.com/2017/09/03/...ut-the-upcoming-nikon-mirrorless-camera.aspx/

Most interesting is the patent they show for a lens adapter that includes some sort of pellicle mirror for AF with F-mount lenses.


From Nikonrumors

This would imply the system will likely introduce a new mount, which seems to be a technical requirement for ML to work fully. Just removing the mirror system from an F-mount dlsr doens't look like a good idea.

Your thoughts?

New mount and dedicated purpose designed primes or it will fail .

An F mount adaptor for those that insist on using DSLR lenses regardless of their suitability.

--
Renato.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rhlpedrosa/
OnExposure member
http://www.onexposure.net/
Good shooting and good luck
(after Ed Murrow)

As Thom explained in the NR forum, the adapter is needed for the telephoto lenses designed for standard PDAF. This is a good sign that the new mount and cameras will be fully functional, useful for people owning all sorts of current F-mount lenses, not some sort of amateurish line like the Nikon 1 system. Or at least I am hoping that will be the case.

--
Renato.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rhlpedrosa/
OnExposure member
http://www.onexposure.net/
Good shooting and good luck
(after Ed Murrow)

I wonder if that would prevent some sort of sensor stabilization with those lenses?

 

[rhlpetrus]

Now that D850 is here, and nothing else is moving the rumormills, Nikonrumors is starting the discussion:

https://nikonrumors.com/2017/09/03/...ut-the-upcoming-nikon-mirrorless-camera.aspx/

Most interesting is the patent they show for a lens adapter that includes some sort of pellicle mirror for AF with F-mount lenses.


From Nikonrumors

This would imply the system will likely introduce a new mount, which seems to be a technical requirement for ML to work fully. Just removing the mirror system from an F-mount dlsr doens't look like a good idea.

Your thoughts?

New mount and dedicated purpose designed primes or it will fail .

An F mount adaptor for those that insist on using DSLR lenses regardless of their suitability.

--
Renato.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rhlpedrosa/
OnExposure member
http://www.onexposure.net/
Good shooting and good luck
(after Ed Murrow)

As Thom explained in the NR forum, the adapter is needed for the telephoto lenses designed for standard PDAF. This is a good sign that the new mount and cameras will be fully functional, useful for people owning all sorts of current F-mount lenses, not some sort of amateurish line like the Nikon 1 system. Or at least I am hoping that will be the case.

--
Renato.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rhlpedrosa/
OnExposure member
http://www.onexposure.net/
Good shooting and good luck
(after Ed Murrow)

I wonder if that would prevent some sort of sensor stabilization with those lenses?

You mean in-body stabilization? Why would it? But Nikon prefers lens stabilization, like Canon, likely for some reason.

--
Renato.

Renato Pedrosa

Explore Renato Pedrosa’s 937 photos on Flickr!

www.flickr.com

OnExposure member

http://www.onexposure.net/

Good shooting and good luck
(after Ed Murrow)

 

[L Copps]

I wonder if that would prevent some sort of sensor stabilization with those lenses?

You mean in-body stabilization? Why would it? But Nikon prefers lens stabilization, like Canon, likely for some reason.

 

[david vella]

I wonder if that would prevent some sort of sensor stabilization with those lenses?

You mean in-body stabilization? Why would it? But Nikon prefers lens stabilization, like Canon, likely for some reason.

--
Renato.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rhlpedrosa/
OnExposure member
http://www.onexposure.net/
Good shooting and good luck
(after Ed Murrow)

Probably because the F mount has no space at the margins for IBIS with FX sensors.

All the more reason for a new mirrorless FF mount designed without compromise / restrictions re foreseeable future with adaptors for use with F mount lenses.

--
“In my mind's eye, I visualize how a particular sight and feeling will appear on a print. It is an intuitive sense, an ability that comes from a lot of practice.” – Ansel Adams

 

[olstrup]

Probably because the F mount has no space at the margins for IBIS with FX sensors.

The IBIS of Sony A7X cameras (full frame) works as well with adapted Nikon F mount lenses as it does with native lenses.

Some very long FL Nikon lenses tends to vignette a bit in the corners on the Sony sensor. My 400/5.6ID AI-S does that while the 180/2.8ED AI-S and the 200/4 AiS-S works without problems. That is not related to IBIS.

 

[havoc315]

They key to good mirrorless, is a good autofocus system. An autofocus system that actually can have advantages over a dSLR AF system.

The key to good mirrorless for Nikon will be a good mirrorless system, AND functionality with their F-mount lenses.

Meaning either native F-mount, or a top quality adapter that preserves most/all mirrorless functionality.

A pellicle mirror adapter is basically just forfeiting being mirrorless. It is taking a mirrorless camera, foregoing the mirrorless AF system, and just tacking on a dSLR AF system. You lose all the benefits of mirrorless, except for the EVF. There is a reason that Sony's SLT system is barely alive.

Sony initially used pellicle mirror adapters for their mirrorless cameras... but with the most recent generation, many of their dSLR lenses are compatible with a simple pass-thru adapter. If Nikon *needs* a pellicle mirror in order to make adapted lenses function... then they are dangerously behind the technology curve.

The disadvantages of a pellicle mirror adapter:

1- The adapter is much larger than a pass-through simple adapter. Ruins the ergonomics of a mirrorless camera. Makes it big and bulky, makes it less secure. May end up being larger than a comparable dSLR.

2- Such an adapter is expensive and complex. If the adapter is $300 or $400... and makes the camera even larger than a D3400... why not just buy a D3400? Maybe that's what Nikon wants.. maybe they are so reluctant to do mirrorless the right way, they want to push their current owners into buying a D3400 as a backup instead of a mirrorless. But in the end, it's foolish. Also being more complex, more chances for the adapter to break. For the pellicle mirror to accumulate dirt, etc.

3- Removes mirrorless AF advantages. The Sony A9 has AF points over 90% of the frame. The Canon dual pixel system, I believe covers 70% of the frame. The Nikon D5/850 -- A mere 18% of the frame. Superior face detection, etc, is possible on mirrorless. Switch to a pellicle mirror, you are just using a dSLR AF module. Now, 5 years ago... a dSLR AF module was clearly superior to mirrorless...... but that's no longer true. Now, they are lateral of each other, with different pros and cons. A traditional dSLR AF system may be a little better as fast focus of a moving object... while a mirrorless AF system can give greater frame coverage, and other advantages. So the good news -- you'd get your dSLR AF system. The bad news -- You wouldn't get the mirrorless AF advantages.

4- Pellicle mirrors introduce another element between the sensor and the subject. Thus, it impairs IQ.

If Nikon goes the adapter route with mirrorless..... they need to engineer a system like the Canon M adapter, and like the newest Sony + LAE3 adapter -- a simple cheap small pass-through adapter, that allows most (if not all) of the mirrorless functionality.

 

[rhlpetrus]

They key to good mirrorless, is a good autofocus system. An autofocus system that actually can have advantages over a dSLR AF system.

The key to good mirrorless for Nikon will be a good mirrorless system, AND functionality with their F-mount lenses.

Meaning either native F-mount, or a top quality adapter that preserves most/all mirrorless functionality.

A pellicle mirror adapter is basically just forfeiting being mirrorless. It is taking a mirrorless camera, foregoing the mirrorless AF system, and just tacking on a dSLR AF system. You lose all the benefits of mirrorless, except for the EVF. There is a reason that Sony's SLT system is barely alive.

Sony initially used pellicle mirror adapters for their mirrorless cameras... but with the most recent generation, many of their dSLR lenses are compatible with a simple pass-thru adapter. If Nikon *needs* a pellicle mirror in order to make adapted lenses function... then they are dangerously behind the technology curve.

The disadvantages of a pellicle mirror adapter:

1- The adapter is much larger than a pass-through simple adapter. Ruins the ergonomics of a mirrorless camera. Makes it big and bulky, makes it less secure. May end up being larger than a comparable dSLR.

2- Such an adapter is expensive and complex. If the adapter is $300 or $400... and makes the camera even larger than a D3400... why not just buy a D3400? Maybe that's what Nikon wants.. maybe they are so reluctant to do mirrorless the right way, they want to push their current owners into buying a D3400 as a backup instead of a mirrorless. But in the end, it's foolish. Also being more complex, more chances for the adapter to break. For the pellicle mirror to accumulate dirt, etc.

3- Removes mirrorless AF advantages. The Sony A9 has AF points over 90% of the frame. The Canon dual pixel system, I believe covers 70% of the frame. The Nikon D5/850 -- A mere 18% of the frame. Superior face detection, etc, is possible on mirrorless. Switch to a pellicle mirror, you are just using a dSLR AF module. Now, 5 years ago... a dSLR AF module was clearly superior to mirrorless...... but that's no longer true. Now, they are lateral of each other, with different pros and cons. A traditional dSLR AF system may be a little better as fast focus of a moving object... while a mirrorless AF system can give greater frame coverage, and other advantages. So the good news -- you'd get your dSLR AF system. The bad news -- You wouldn't get the mirrorless AF advantages.

4- Pellicle mirrors introduce another element between the sensor and the subject. Thus, it impairs IQ.

If Nikon goes the adapter route with mirrorless..... they need to engineer a system like the Canon M adapter, and like the newest Sony + LAE3 adapter -- a simple cheap small pass-through adapter, that allows most (if not all) of the mirrorless functionality.

 

[rhlpetrus]

Probably because the F mount has no space at the margins for IBIS with FX sensors.

The IBIS of Sony A7X cameras (full frame) works as well with adapted Nikon F mount lenses as it does with native lenses.

Some very long FL Nikon lenses tends to vignette a bit in the corners on the Sony sensor. My 400/5.6ID AI-S does that while the 180/2.8ED AI-S and the 200/4 AiS-S works without problems. That is not related to IBIS.

--
"Sharpness is a bourgois concept." (Henri Cartier-Bresson)

Do you have exp with AF using Nikkors?

--
Renato.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rhlpedrosa/
OnExposure member
http://www.onexposure.net/
Good shooting and good luck
(after Ed Murrow)

 

[underxposed59]

I wonder if that would prevent some sort of sensor stabilization with those lenses?

You mean in-body stabilization? Why would it? But Nikon prefers lens stabilization, like Canon, likely for some reason.

 

[Cliff Fujii]

Now that D850 is here, and nothing else is moving the rumormills, Nikonrumors is starting the discussion:

https://nikonrumors.com/2017/09/03/...ut-the-upcoming-nikon-mirrorless-camera.aspx/

Most interesting is the patent they show for a lens adapter that includes some sort of pellicle mirror for AF with F-mount lenses.

This would imply the system will likely introduce a new mount, which seems to be a technical requirement for ML to work fully. Just removing the mirror system from an F-mount dlsr doens't look like a good idea.

Your thoughts?

 

[Cliff Fujii]

Now that D850 is here, and nothing else is moving the rumormills, Nikonrumors is starting the discussion:

https://nikonrumors.com/2017/09/03/...ut-the-upcoming-nikon-mirrorless-camera.aspx/

Most interesting is the patent they show for a lens adapter that includes some sort of pellicle mirror for AF with F-mount lenses.


From Nikonrumors

This would imply the system will likely introduce a new mount, which seems to be a technical requirement for ML to work fully. Just removing the mirror system from an F-mount dlsr doens't look like a good idea.

Your thoughts?

New mount and dedicated purpose designed primes or it will fail .

An F mount adaptor for those that insist on using DSLR lenses regardless of their suitability.

--
Renato.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rhlpedrosa/
OnExposure member
http://www.onexposure.net/
Good shooting and good luck
(after Ed Murrow)

As Thom explained in the NR forum, the adapter is needed for the telephoto lenses designed for standard PDAF. This is a good sign that the new mount and cameras will be fully functional, useful for people owning all sorts of current F-mount lenses, not some sort of amateurish line like the Nikon 1 system. Or at least I am hoping that will be the case.

--
Renato.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rhlpedrosa/
OnExposure member
http://www.onexposure.net/
Good shooting and good luck
(after Ed Murrow)

I wonder if that would prevent some sort of sensor stabilization with those lenses?

Nikon has committed to VR but that doesn't mean that some sort of IBIS system couldn't be fitted to the new Nikon mirrorless.

--
Cliff

 

[olstrup]

Probably because the F mount has no space at the margins for IBIS with FX sensors.

The IBIS of Sony A7X cameras (full frame) works as well with adapted Nikon F mount lenses as it does with native lenses.

Some very long FL Nikon lenses tends to vignette a bit in the corners on the Sony sensor. My 400/5.6ID AI-S does that while the 180/2.8ED AI-S and the 200/4 AiS-S works without problems. That is not related to IBIS.

--
"Sharpness is a bourgois concept." (Henri Cartier-Bresson)

Do you have exp with AF using Nikkors?

I was referring specifically to IBIS - whether there would be room for a working IBIS system when using the F mount. There is though there may be an upper limit concerning focal lengths as described.

As for the only one existing AF adapter for newer Nikon AF lenses on Sony A7X cameras, it doesn't work too fast and accurately on Sony bodies at the present state and users are generally not overly pleased with it. It seems that the mix of electronic and mechanical mechanisms for AF and aperture control is complicating things.

Older "screwdriver" AF-D lenses need a focusing motor in the camera body and doesn't AF at all with the present Nikon adapters. For them to work, the adapter would need to have the focus motor built in. Such an adapter with a focus motor exists with the Techart adapter for Leica M lenses, but those lenses are small and light whereas many Nikon lenses are much bigger and havier and would put a far greater load on a focus motor in an adapter. So far nobody have marketed one for Nikon lenses though some use the Techart for smaller manual Nikon lenses by means of a Nikon F to Leica M adapter between between lens and the Techard. This only works for lenses where the whole optical group is moves as a block when focusing. It doesn't work with lenses with floating elements and internal focusing which are dependent on the internal (in the lens) focusing mechanism for proper optical performance.

Canon AF lenses work much better when adapted to Sony cameras because they work fully electronical and both AF and aperture mechanisms are electronis and housed fully in the lens so only an appropriate electrical signal is needed. In fact, many users find the AF and aperture performance can't be told apart from native Sony AF lenses.

Adapted manual focus Nikon lenses work as well on Sony cameras as they do on Nikon cameras (some say better depending on whether they find it easier to focus them accurately with the EVF on Sony cameras than with the OVF of Nikon cameras). Again the execption is the very long focus lengths from 400mm and longer where a litle corner vignetting can be seen.

--
"Sharpness is a bourgois concept." (Henri Cartier-Bresson)

 

[Cliff Fujii]

They key to good mirrorless, is a good autofocus system. An autofocus system that actually can have advantages over a dSLR AF system.

The D5 has one of the best AF systems of any camera.

The key to good mirrorless for Nikon will be a good mirrorless system, AND functionality with their F-mount lenses.

Meaning either native F-mount, or a top quality adapter that preserves most/all mirrorless functionality.

A pellicle mirror adapter is basically just forfeiting being mirrorless. It is taking a mirrorless camera, foregoing the mirrorless AF system, and just tacking on a dSLR AF system. You lose all the benefits of mirrorless, except for the EVF. There is a reason that Sony's SLT system is barely alive.

Sony initially used pellicle mirror adapters for their mirrorless cameras... but with the most recent generation, many of their dSLR lenses are compatible with a simple pass-thru adapter. If Nikon *needs* a pellicle mirror in order to make adapted lenses function... then they are dangerously behind the technology curve.

If you have long lenses, the pellicle adapter would probably be required. Lenses in the future can be engineered so as to work properly without the need of a pellicle adapter.

The disadvantages of a pellicle mirror adapter:

1- The adapter is much larger than a pass-through simple adapter. Ruins the ergonomics of a mirrorless camera. Makes it big and bulky, makes it less secure. May end up being larger than a comparable dSLR.

Not necessarily. The adapter will have to be the proper length to make up for the setback required by the F-mount lens.

2- Such an adapter is expensive and complex. If the adapter is $300 or $400... and makes the camera even larger than a D3400... why not just buy a D3400? Maybe that's what Nikon wants.. maybe they are so reluctant to do mirrorless the right way, they want to push their current owners into buying a D3400 as a backup instead of a mirrorless. But in the end, it's foolish. Also being more complex, more chances for the adapter to break. For the pellicle mirror to accumulate dirt, etc.

remember how Nikon rolled out the V1? There were some lenses at the start but the adapter would allow Nikon invested users to use the Nikkor with the V1.

3- Removes mirrorless AF advantages. The Sony A9 has AF points over 90% of the frame. The Canon dual pixel system, I believe covers 70% of the frame. The Nikon D5/850 -- A mere 18% of the frame. Superior face detection, etc, is possible on mirrorless. Switch to a pellicle mirror, you are just using a dSLR AF module. Now, 5 years ago... a dSLR AF module was clearly superior to mirrorless...... but that's no longer true. Now, they are lateral of each other, with different pros and cons. A traditional dSLR AF system may be a little better as fast focus of a moving object... while a mirrorless AF system can give greater frame coverage, and other advantages. So the good news -- you'd get your dSLR AF system. The bad news -- You wouldn't get the mirrorless AF advantages.

It doesn't have to be that way. Nikon can design a dual pixel sensor that would allow the use of any F-mount lens. What I'm not sure of is what will happen with the pellicle mirror and auto focusing.

4- Pellicle mirrors introduce another element between the sensor and the subject. Thus, it impairs IQ.

It doesn't have to if the mirror was designed properly. If it does, that would be an inducement to get the mirrorless compatible glass.

If Nikon goes the adapter route with mirrorless..... they need to engineer a system like the Canon M adapter, and like the newest Sony + LAE3 adapter -- a simple cheap small pass-through adapter, that allows most (if not all) of the mirrorless functionality.

Nikon is going to try to get all of their lenses (yes, even pre AI) to work with the adapter. That's going to be a challenge with the really long lenses.

 

[brunobarolo]

Now that D850 is here, and nothing else is moving the rumormills, Nikonrumors is starting the discussion:

https://nikonrumors.com/2017/09/03/...ut-the-upcoming-nikon-mirrorless-camera.aspx/

Most interesting is the patent they show for a lens adapter that includes some sort of pellicle mirror for AF with F-mount lenses.


From Nikonrumors

This would imply the system will likely introduce a new mount, which seems to be a technical requirement for ML to work fully. Just removing the mirror system from an F-mount dlsr doens't look like a good idea.

Your thoughts?

--
Renato.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rhlpedrosa/
OnExposure member
http://www.onexposure.net/
Good shooting and good luck
(after Ed Murrow)

All speculations about a new mount for Nikon mirrorless cameras assume that it will have a larger diameter than the current F mount. But one strange detail in this patent drawing is, the mount diameter of this mirrorless camera is smaller than the mount diameter of the F mount lens. Which makes me wonder how relevant this adapter patent is for an FX mirrorless camera.

 

[cosmicnode]

I wonder if that would prevent some sort of sensor stabilization with those lenses?

You mean in-body stabilization? Why would it? But Nikon prefers lens stabilization, like Canon, likely for some reason.

 

[cosmicnode]

Probably because the F mount has no space at the margins for IBIS with FX sensors.

The IBIS of Sony A7X cameras (full frame) works as well with adapted Nikon F mount lenses as it does with native lenses.

Some very long FL Nikon lenses tends to vignette a bit in the corners on the Sony sensor. My 400/5.6ID AI-S does that while the 180/2.8ED AI-S and the 200/4 AiS-S works without problems. That is not related to IBIS.

This is due to the closeness of the rear opening in the adaptor which can not be bigger 39mm trying to cover a 43mm diagonal when the rear element of the lens is some distance up the lens barrel, the rear of the sony lens is around 12-13mm off the sensor this could be one of the reasons why Sony has not produced any long fast lenses.

--
Mike.
"I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit, it's the only way to be sure."

 

[cosmicnode]

Now that D850 is here, and nothing else is moving the rumormills, Nikonrumors is starting the discussion:

https://nikonrumors.com/2017/09/03/...ut-the-upcoming-nikon-mirrorless-camera.aspx/

Most interesting is the patent they show for a lens adapter that includes some sort of pellicle mirror for AF with F-mount lenses.


From Nikonrumors

This would imply the system will likely introduce a new mount, which seems to be a technical requirement for ML to work fully. Just removing the mirror system from an F-mount dlsr doens't look like a good idea.

Your thoughts?

--
Renato.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rhlpedrosa/
OnExposure member
http://www.onexposure.net/
Good shooting and good luck
(after Ed Murrow)

All speculations about a new mount for Nikon mirrorless cameras assume that it will have a larger diameter than the current F mount. But one strange detail in this patent drawing is, the mount diameter of this mirrorless camera is smaller than the mount diameter of the F mount lens. Which makes me wonder how relevant this adapter patent is for an FX mirrorless camera.

Could be it's for a crop sensor, but its only a sketch and sizes are not relavant to a finished product.



--
Mike.
"I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit, it's the only way to be sure."