New DX Sensor

Maybe you ought to read
maybe you ought to look more closely at your own crops to see how
different they are.
I've looked over all the images (more than 400) at full-resolution on a huge calibrated monitor for over 30 hours.

--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)
 
Hi,

I just thought, while reading through some of your interesting posts, that what should have happened is to get best of both.

You see, when I look on details of the screen of this calibrated monitor... I can catch an eye of my reflection if I concentrate a long time. And the monitor es damn huge, so it takes me a long time to find out where the little eye is that is looking at me.

Nature has made big and smaller eyes, bigger or smaller photosensible tools, longer or shorter neuronal conducts... and that's what is happening with chips and also lenses.

Personally I hope that there will be soon a bright engineer able to dismount all this square barreers away from the bodies and let light come over round as any photon impacting over a round chip with a very convenient density of sensors to catch up with a 25% of perfection (if your eye capacity is considered perfection).

Now, with a digiback with 38 Megapixels we reach a 25% of what nature has produced in us.

Before we had to change the way to get the light on film, due to large use of paper.

But now?

Just think about how easy it is to get an selected area of a digital shot. No tissors, no paperwaste.

Think about this wonderful circle, natural view and caption.

Very soon some very clever guy or lady will present this improvement. And once you had taken a shot with a circular caption profile you will never want to go back to other fixed formats.

Because you'd have all formats in one.

In the meantime, let's get the best out of our sensors.

Best wishes,

Miguel Furlock
--
Moving as smooth as possible on a thin skin of ice protecting me from myself
 
huh? last i checked Canon offers three APS-C and one APS-H model so
'we people' definitely know what having a choice is like.. do you?
:)
heh, yeah, I know what having a choice is like, as do all the other folks that have "chosen" nikon. We had/have no fewer choices than you do/did. Anyone that can afford a FF or APS-H camera, could buy one, if they wanted to do so. Everyone here made a "choice". Choosing to not to buy a FF or APS-H camera is a "choice".

What part of that don't you understand?

The simple facts are that both brands offer great cameras and each has something the other does not. Both have strengths and weaknesses.

You fanboy, zealot types are really something else.

--
my gallery of so-so photos
http://www.pbase.com/kerrypierce/root
 
what can I say... you do not see density is different, color is
different, noise is different. Discoloration is different too.
I made no attempt to match anything by acuity and luminance noise during the conversion. I had 400 images with just those two variables. Add chroma noise and multiply by 7. Add WB, saturation etc. and I'd have a tera-byte of images. I matched what was important for the test I was doing.

--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)
 
what can I say... you do not see density is different, color is
different, noise is different. Discoloration is different too.
I made no attempt to match anything by acuity and luminance noise
during the conversion.
they should match automatically if the sensor technology is the same. you would not need to address that during the conversion. and once again, you should be comparing raw data, not conversions.
I matched what was important for the test I was doing.
and that was what? please state the goal of the test. was it aimed to prove that 5D and 20D have same sensors, different is the size only?

try to understand why 5D was not available at the same time as 20D, which will be very logical given the technology is the same. please do not resort to marketing reasons for 1 year difference.

also try to figure out the ratios I mentioned. the answer is there.

--
Julia
 
what can I say... you do not see density is different, color is
different, noise is different. Discoloration is different too.
I made no attempt to match anything by acuity and luminance noise
during the conversion.
they should match automatically if the sensor technology is the
same. you would not need to address that during the conversion. and
once again, you should be comparing raw data, not conversions.
Really. So the dyes and auto WB algorithms are automatically the same, huh? The default conversion parameters, tone curves etc. in the RAW converter are automatically the same too, right?

--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)
 
Note that the last D2X sensor incorporated smaller pixels,
certainly the impetus behind Canon forwarding their ridiculous
advertising apologia that their larger ones are somehow better.
Thus, it may be possible that the next new DX sensor will be the
same size as this one, rather than FF, but still offer larger
resolution, say 18 MP. Who would then opt for a larger sensor that
exposes the weaknesses of even the finest lenses?
How come some of the Nikon forum members are so intelligent about
this and some are so clueless?
I think because some members are speculating in theory and others are using the Nikon glass that is currently available in the marketplace.
--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)
--
Jeff
 
what can I say... you do not see density is different, color is
different, noise is different. Discoloration is different too.
I made no attempt to match anything by acuity and luminance noise
during the conversion.
they should match automatically if the sensor technology is the
same. you would not need to address that during the conversion. and
once again, you should be comparing raw data, not conversions.
Really. So the dyes and auto WB algorithms are automatically the
same, huh? The default conversion parameters, tone curves etc. in
the RAW converter are automatically the same too, right?
here are you go:
  • use raw data;
  • look into method used for auto WB "algorithm";
  • study how tone curves and input conversion compensate for differencies in CFA
--
Julia
 
And how will that affect the result that, using RSP+CE, I can reproduce a 20D 400 shot from a 5D 1000 shot? That knowledge actually does help me to decide what to do when I'm shooting with both cameras simultaneously at an event. What you want me to do is a worthless exercise since it ignores an important part of the workflow. Millions of integers from 0 to 4095 are not saleable.
--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)
 
And how will that affect the result that, using RSP+CE, I can
reproduce a 20D 400 shot from a 5D 1000 shot?
you want to attribute that to pixel size solely. I suggest that it is at least partially due to newer technology.
What you want me to do is
a worthless exercise since it ignores an important part of the
workflow.
what exactly you call "worthless exercise"? why do you think your crops one can't call same "worthless"?
Millions of integers from 0 to 4095 are not saleable.
funny you said "millions". should be gazillions.

--
Julia
 
huh? last i checked Canon offers three APS-C and one APS-H model so
'we people' definitely know what having a choice is like.. do you?
:)
heh, yeah, I know what having a choice is like, as do all the other
folks that have "chosen" nikon. We had/have no fewer choices than
you do/did. Anyone that can afford a FF or APS-H camera, could buy
one, if they wanted to do so. Everyone here made a "choice".
Choosing to not to buy a FF or APS-H camera is a "choice".

What part of that don't you understand?
Gotta wade in here, sorry. I guess the part I don't understand is when Nikon says "You have 2 choices: buy DX or pi$$ off," and you think of that as a choice. Maybe it is a choice according to some obscure definition in a dictionary, but it's not REALLY a choice, is it. Certainly not in the sense that I understand the word.
You fanboy, zealot types are really something else.
This comment is completely uncalled for. You seem to be taking some people's desire for FF to be a personal affront. Those of us that want FF don't expect it to be a Nikon exclusive. We just want a real choice. We know that many people are satisfied with DX. We understand that. We grasp that concept. We get it. We even believe you when you say that you are a happy with DX. We, in turn, are happy for you. We are envious of your bliss. Not jealous, mind you, but envious. We are happy for you. And some day we hope to be equally happy if/when Nikon releases a FF camera (with DX crop, of course).

Now, lemme have it!

--
Tuktu Sijuktei
'Please tell me if the lens cap is on.'
 
Gotta wade in here, sorry. I guess the part I don't understand is
when Nikon says "You have 2 choices: buy DX or pi$$ off," and you
think of that as a choice. Maybe it is a choice according to some
obscure definition in a dictionary, but it's not REALLY a choice,
is it. Certainly not in the sense that I understand the word.
What other sense of the word is there? Did you not have a choice when you bought nikon? Have you no choice in your next purchase?
You fanboy, zealot types are really something else.
This comment is completely uncalled for.
That's your opinion. I disagree. What is uncalled for is the canon fanboys that won't quit posting that drivel here. The constant canon superiority for this or that, fanboy evangelism, is what is uncalled for.
You seem to be taking some
people's desire for FF to be a personal affront. Those of us that
want FF don't expect it to be a Nikon exclusive.
That's ad hominem nonsense.

I couldn't care less, if nikon makes a FF or not and whether you want one or not. That has nothing to do with my reply to the fanboy posting his drivel here.

--
my gallery of so-so photos
http://www.pbase.com/kerrypierce/root
 
Hi,

I just thought, while reading through some of your interesting
posts, that what should have happened is to get best of both.
Very soon some very clever guy or lady will present this
improvement. And once you had taken a shot with a circular caption
profile you will never want to go back to other fixed formats.

Because you'd have all formats in one.
I'm with you, Miguel.

What makes me uneasy is that the industry has seemed to "settle" on the two standard CMOS/CCD formats with all their attendant limitations. I suspect that this standardization has not come about because of a lack of technological innovation or smart engineers, but because of the cost of building new "fabs" for new technology (hundreds of millions of dollars).

It seems to me that it's important that the industry think "outside of the box", looking at entirely new approaches to capturing low light, handling angle-of-incidence, blooming, interpolation (Bayer) and all the rest. Seems we get a sort-of-workable technology and then stack on all kinds of workarounds to improve and extend it.

Look at Intel. They never released the Pentium 5 because they ran up against the ceiling of a very, very old technology. Heat effects and miniaturization combined to make the old architectural untenable (and no-longer cost-effective). So much for Moore's law! :-)

I think one of the problems is that too few companies are making too many of the sensors. I laud Foveon for their innovative approach even if the ultimate result isn't as great as hoped.

Someone out there has a brilliant cost-effective way of designing and building a new sensor that will deliver great images with no distortion at low-light with killer dynamic range. And it may not necessarily be a large sensor, either. I just hope the industry doesn't kill off these potentially breakthrough designs!

--
AAK - http://www.aakatz.com
 
The Nobel Laureate physicist of Cal Tech, Richard Feynman, gave a
prescient lecture in the early 1970's (I think) entitled "Plenty of
Room at the Bottom." Stated simply, his premise was that there was
The talk was at the APS (American Physical Society) meeting in 1961
and was an after dinner talk given at Caltech (note proper spelling of
Caltech). What relevance Feynman's talk has to your post, I still can't
figure out. I didn't know Feynman, but I did take care of his dog once.
lots of room for expansion by making things smaller, a prediction
that foretold of the astonishing future of microprocessors, among
other things.

Note that the last D2X sensor incorporated smaller pixels,
certainly the impetus behind Canon forwarding their ridiculous
advertising apologia that their larger ones are somehow better.
The same number of larger pixels covering the same image area
are better.
Thus, it may be possible that the next new DX sensor will be the
same size as this one, rather than FF, but still offer larger
resolution, say 18 MP. Who would then opt for a larger sensor that
exposes the weaknesses of even the finest lenses?
Larger sensors expose certain edge deficiencies of lenses while smaller
pixel sizes expose other lens deficiencies. You might not opt for a sensor
that has a higher resolution than the optical resolution of your lens.
I have only one DX lens, the inexpensive 18-70, plus a sack full of
FF lenses. Surprisingly, the DX lens produces images that are
sharp and fine corner to corner, so I feel this lens could be
pushed in coverage to perform adequately for a slightly larger
sensor, perhaps 1.25/1 conversion factor....THAT, I would consider
ideal.
I disagree. DX lenses were designed to have good optical properties within
the image circle needed to cover DX sized sensor. You can't just extrapolate
your properties to larger image circles. Besides, your going to also have
to change the relative position of the lens and sensor so that the DX lens
will produce an image sensor large enough to cover the larger sensor.
The astonishing sharpness of Foveon sensor images is another
possibility. I hope that technology does not stall.
I would suspect a major challenge is getting dyes with the right
absorption spectra to adequately sense R, G or B, but not absorb
outside of those color ranges. Of course, the absorption ranges of
molecular dyes are not perfectly sharp, vary with temperature, and
can be affected by two photon processes, etc.
After all, Christmas is approaching and such speculation may be
justified slightly on that basis.
Unfortunately, the laws of physics don't change, even for Christmas.
A final personal opinion: The D2X is a medium format camera by any
measure. As others have expressed, the worst that might happen if
By what measure? Name one...
Nikon suddenly obsoletes (is that a word?) all the equipment we
have we will then still be able to concentrate on producing
beautiful images rather than wasting time in forwarding arguments
I suppose if the arguments were more valid than the ones you propose
above, they might make more of an impact! Sorry, but that's the way it
works.
that fall on deaf Japanese ears. I think those guys know what they
are doing, anyway, and will continue to do just fine without our
specious arguments.
Here I totally agree with you. I do some work supported by both Nikon and
Canon and meet with them semiannually for reviews - they are quite well
qualified to make the kind of advances that can be expected given the
combined constraints of physics, economics and engineering.
Regards to all.
--
--
Chasm
 
give me some numbers to support your suggestion of technology
similarities.
Namely, ratios of following parameters: pixel size, well capacity,
electronic gain, readout noise, thermal signal.
Those are not technology similarities. Those are property simularities.
Scaling the same technology doesn't mean linear scaling of their
properties...
--
Chasm
 
depends how you understand similarities. For example, trick a raw
converter into beleiving 5D file is 20D, and compare results with
processing same file as 5D file.
So you're saying that if two camera makers use identical sensors, but
converts to "raw data" in a different way than the other, then the two
sensor technologies are different?
On a side note, do you beleive AA filter design is independent of
pixel pitch?

--
Julia
--
Chasm
 
The sensitivity of a light sensor as a function of the angle of
incidence of the light can effect image quality. FF is currently
affected by this somewhat more than APS - that's why the Canon FF
can have serious vignetting, increased CA, and distortion problems
when certain wide angle lens are used. If you use a lens that has a
What fraction of the vignetting on a FF is optical and what fraction is
due to angle of incidence at the sensor? This of course depends on
the lens and aperature, but I'm curious for you to give a range of
values given your very definitive statement explaining this effect.
marginal MTF at certain f stops, this in turn will be exaggerated
by the sensor when the angle of incidence is the greatest - the
corners. If you can't see this difference then it becomes
meaningless to you - but not necessarily to others who CAN see the
difference. This is why some photographers prefer the D2x while
others, like yourself, prefer the 5D. And that's fine.
--
Steve Bingham
http://www.dustylens.com
--
Chasm
 

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