New BenQ SW270C display; need help verifying accuracy of Palette Master Element calibration

[lancehead]

I'm not well versed at all in color profiling and could use any help in interpreting my attempts to verify the accuracy of my BenQ SW270C display calibration.

I recently (June 8) purchased a BenQ SW270C display. Upon receiving it I installed the Palette Master Element (PME) software version 1.3.9. I would just like to be assured in some way that the calibration generated by PME is accurate, other than relying on the PME verification alone.

I am running a PC with Windows 10. Sorry for the large number of attached images. I just wanted to be clear in how I did my testing/verification.

I will use an Adobe RGB calibration generated today to illustrate the discrepancies between PME and DisplayCal.

I created a new calibration using PME:

Display Settings

White Point: D65
RGB Primaries: Adobe RGB
Luminance: Custom=110
Gamma:2.2
Blackpoint: Relative

Measurement

Calibration preset: Calibration 1
Profile Distribution: System Level
Profile Version: v2
Profile Type: 16 bits LUT
Patch set size: Large

This resulted in this Validation Report:

Palette Master Element Validation Report - Adobe RGB, White Level 110, White Point 6500K

I then used DisplayCal to generate a profile as described by "Simon" in this posting:

BenQ Palette Master Grief

I agree that Palette Master is rather manky. However, it's the only way to generate hardware (monitor-internal) calibration. I agree that DisplayCal is a better way to create profiles, but no need to use it to calibrate if you've created hardware 3D LUTs with Pallete Master. Just use DisplayCal in "Profile only" mode to measure the calibration.

To avoid any confusion, here are my DisplayCal settings to generate the profile:

[ATTACH alt="DisplayCal "Display& instrument" settings"]2600311[/ATTACH]
DisplayCal "Display& instrument" settings

[ATTACH alt="DisplayCal "Calibration" settings"]2600313[/ATTACH]
DisplayCal "Calibration" settings

[ATTACH alt="DisplayCal "Profiling" settings"]2600315[/ATTACH]
DisplayCal "Profiling" settings

A portion of the generated Profile report is below:

DisplayCal measurement report; PME calibration/DisplayCal profile



The Profile Information (not shown) indicates 96.2% gamut coverage for Adobe RGB. Shouldn't I get better coverage?

What is more concerning is the White Point Level. This is where I have the most discrepancies since I began testing. The verification report has a measured whitepoint of 6697K. Shouldn't it be ~6500K as specified in the PME hardware calibration?

DisplayCal also has a menu item 'Tools->Report->Report on calibrated display device'. Here are the results (using the DisplayCal generated profile):

14:14:32,135 Setting up the instrument
14:14:32,135 Product Name: i1Display3
14:14:32,135 Serial Number: I1-19.B-02.337812.11
14:14:32,135 Firmware Version: v2.28
14:14:32,135 Firmware Date: 29Jan14
14:14:32,135 Measured display update delay of 90 msec, using delay of 220 msec & 0 msec ↲
↳ inst reaction
14:14:32,135 Current calibration response:
14:14:32,135 Black level = 0.2112 cd/m^2
14:14:32,135 50% level = 24.50 cd/m^2
14:14:32,135 White level = 110.23 cd/m^2
14:14:32,135 Aprox. gamma = 2.17
14:14:32,135 Contrast ratio = 522:1
14:14:32,135 White chromaticity coordinates 0.3104, 0.3329
14:14:32,135 White Correlated Color Temperature = 6596K, DE 2K to locus = 8.3
14:14:32,135 White Correlated Daylight Temperature = 6596K, DE 2K to locus = 4.5
14:14:32,135 White Visual Color Temperature = 6282K, DE 2K to locus = 8.0
14:14:32,135 White Visual Daylight Temperature = 6437K, DE 2K to locus = 4.3

The Color Temperature is lower but still far from 6500K (in my opinion).

All my tests using DisplayCal over the last 2 weeks are never consistent with the PME hardware verification. I would like to be assured I am verifying with DisplayCal properly and my results indicate poor performance with the BenQ display. Or, conversely, DisplayCal cannot be used to validate PME results and my display probably works well.

I came across this site from reading another dpresults posting.

BenQ SW271 Monitor

This gentleman's DisplayCal verification results matched the PME hardware very closely! Even when he performed an Interactive display adjustment the whitepoint / White level was dead on with what he used in PME. I tried an Interactive display adjustment. The white level was good but the whitepoint calibration was way off:

Interactive display adjustment using PME hardware calibration (profile generated in DisplayCal)

Thanks in advance for any help anyone can provide. I'm at the point now of going cross-eyed and am reluctant to do any more testing without further guidance.

 

[ArtIsRight]

I see that you have put in a lot of work calibrating and testing your display. The fact that your color temperature measure is off by 200 is ok and for the most part won't be noticeable and will not effect your overall image editing what so ever. If your white point was off by 1000 or more then I would start to get concern. When it comes to densitometry there is precision that it can vary from software to software depending on the parameter set with in it and it can also very from measurement device to the next. What I can tell you is that it is never a good idea to measure one calibration profile using another program as an audit. It works as you found out but the numbers don't quite match. Based on what I see you are getting a good hardware calibration through your BenQ Display. Another thing too is that Display Cal is for software calibration only and not hardware Calibration.

To be honest with you the values that you got even with the verifications are good and you should be happy with it. That is just my thoughts having done this for over 20 years!

Full Disclosure, I'm Art, a photographer based in LA. I run a computer consultant business for both photography and general computing. I am also BenQ Brand Ambassador. I consult and work with BenQ, I do not work for the company and I am on these forum help customers like yourself.

 

[lancehead]

Posted reply here in error. See original thread.

 

[lancehead]

Thank you Art for your prompt response and explanation. One reason I did not list as a problem in my original post with the verification was me! Perhaps I'm being to paranoid or over cautious in my evaluation. I think the reason may be that I used DisplayCal for a few years to profile/calibrate my old 24" Samsung display. After installing Palette Master Element I was surprised at the simplicity of the application. I had some issues with it and that's why I started looking at some way to verify the calibration from it.

One issue I have with PME is that once I create a profile I am no longer to verify any other. Yesterday I generated the Adobe RGB profile. This morning I verified it and the ΔE*00 values were slightly higher but still passed. Afterword, I generated a sRGB profile saved to Calibration2. But now I have no way, that I can find, using PME to verify my Adobe RGB profile. This is another reason I was hoping to use DisplayCal. Is there some way to verify different profiles in PME?

Do you think I can continue to use the DisplayCal generated profile to validate the PME Adobe RGB profile? When I run a DisplayCal verification this morning the Average ΔE*00 and Maximum ΔE*00 are good.


DisplayCal Verificaton of PME Adobe RGB profile

View: original size

Is this a valid method to verify (other than whitepoint) my PME calibration? I also generated an sRGB profile as well and get good ΔE*00 values.

Thanks again for your input and help. BTW I've watched several of your youtube videos. Your recent one posted Saturday (Let's talk about BenQ Palette Master Element 1.3.9 & 3 solutions to the bug that you may be facing) was very helpful, especially the information regarding Panel Native.

Greg

 

[ArtIsRight]

Hi Greg,

You're welcome. I totally understand where you are coming from.

The reason why the profile from PME is unverifiable by other programs is because it a hardware icc profile. Unlike a software icc profile that will contained color remapping information. This icc just stipulate the video output data for each of the color channel as is to 100%, this means output full data and it contains the color gamut information of the calibration.

So the best way to verify the profile after the fact on the SW is to choose the slot that you use to profile the respective color space on the display. Say if you want to verify the Adobe RGB profile. What you have to do is choose slot 1 on the display and then in your display setting choose the correspondence color profile generate by PME for Adobe RGB from there you can go back into verify the profile. This is going to be best way to verify a PME generated icc or icm profile.

If you feel comfortable using DisplayCal you can continue to use it for verification. I don't feel that it is the correct or proper program to evaluate these profiles but that is my opinion.

And you're welcome on the video!

Art

 

[lancehead]

Thank you for describing the method of verifying different profiles. When I do as you describe, I do get different results between the 2 color profiles/calibrations but the profile description in the PME window does not change.

In window 'Color management' I set my color profile to the Adobe RGB profile and insured the display was set to 'Calibration1'. I run the verification in PME and it passes. But the profile description is still the last profile that was calibrated using PME (sRGB):

PME profile verification for Adobe RGB profile

The profile does not change at all between my 2 verifications. This is why I was saying in my earlier post the profile does not change. Did I really verify Adobe RGB? If I change the color management profile to the sRGB profile but keep the Adobe RGB calibration in the OSD, the verification fails.

Thanks again for your advice and help. It is so helpful to discuss these issues with someone. I did send an email regarding this issue to BenQ support last Friday and have not heard anything yet.

Greg

 

[alexis41]

I can help you with that cause i 'm in similar situation with you having the same monitor (which is a bit problematic)

First of all the coverage of the monitor in display call cannot reach 100% both in rgb and adobe rgb so dont expect that (probably false advertisement)

Second of all i also do pallete master and then display cal calibration but something that wil give you better numbers is that you need in pallete master to calibrate to native color and not adobe rgb.Then i calibrate with display call and have managed to go as fas as 99 srgb and 98 adobe rgb.

The problem here is that pallete master sometimes works and others doesn't so if you have a problem with a calibration slot try another one maybe you get lucky, i use display pro for the calibration

 

[lancehead]

Thank you for your suggestions. I'll experiment with Panel Native then DisplayCal calibration.

BenQ just released an update today for Palette Master Element (1.3.10) that takes care of the faulty Panel Native calibration. That may fix the issue you see in picking the calibration slot.

I would like to see a more robust PME similar to DisplayCal...

Greg

 

[alexis41]

I have lost faith to pallete master and generally in benq

 

[Roy Sletcher]

I have lost faith to pallete master and generally in benq

Care to elaborate?

For the record I speak only for myself and YMMV. I have owned the Benq SW270C for 7 months. I am very happy with the build and panel quality.

It is not a competitor for the top of the line Eizo's or NEC's. It is significantly cheaper, and at its price point it represents good value for money. You want better than spend the money for better.

Sure, the Benq documentation and communication with its user base could be better. The Palette-master software truly sucks at this stage. I did download Palette-master v1.3.10 which mysteriously appeared without explanation or documentation last night and it seems to correct some of the more egregious defects.

A frequent poster to this site, "Artisright", is valiantly filling in the missing gaps of the Benq communications system. For anybody having problems with the Benq monitors his Youtube channel is a fund of knowledge.

-rs-

 

[ArtIsRight]

Thank you for describing the method of verifying different profiles. When I do as you describe, I do get different results between the 2 color profiles/calibrations but the profile description in the PME window does not change.

In window 'Color management' I set my color profile to the Adobe RGB profile and insured the display was set to 'Calibration1'. I run the verification in PME and it passes. But the profile description is still the last profile that was calibrated using PME (sRGB):

PME profile verification for Adobe RGB profile

The profile does not change at all between my 2 verifications. This is why I was saying in my earlier post the profile does not change. Did I really verify Adobe RGB? If I change the color management profile to the sRGB profile but keep the Adobe RGB calibration in the OSD, the verification fails.

Thanks again for your advice and help. It is so helpful to discuss these issues with someone. I did send an email regarding this issue to BenQ support last Friday and have not heard anything yet.

Greg

If you are running a calibration and you have checked those value manually, I would trust that it is correct. There may be a bug in the verification of the profile name, I would have to double check this. Because it is supposed to pick up the system profile. I'll get back to you.

On the second test when you change the profile to sRGB and keep Adobe RGB in the OSD, is a proof that it is not measuring the right correspond profile and color space.

Hope this helps,

Art

 

[ArtIsRight]

I have lost faith to pallete master and generally in benq

Care to elaborate?

For the record I speak only for myself and YMMV. I have owned the Benq SW270C for 7 months. I am very happy with the build and panel quality.

It is not a competitor for the top of the line Eizo's or NEC's. It is significantly cheaper, and at its price point it represents good value for money. You want better than spend the money for better.

Sure, the Benq documentation and communication with its user base could be better. The Palette-master software truly sucks at this stage. I did download Palette-master v1.3.10 which mysteriously appeared without explanation or documentation last night and it seems to correct some of the more egregious defects.

A frequent poster to this site, "Artisright", is valiantly filling in the missing gaps of the Benq communications system. For anybody having problems with the Benq monitors his Youtube channel is a fund of knowledge.

-rs-

Hi Roy,

Much appreciate the shoutout and support!

Art

 

[lancehead]

Thank you for describing the method of verifying different profiles. When I do as you describe, I do get different results between the 2 color profiles/calibrations but the profile description in the PME window does not change.

In window 'Color management' I set my color profile to the Adobe RGB profile and insured the display was set to 'Calibration1'. I run the verification in PME and it passes. But the profile description is still the last profile that was calibrated using PME (sRGB):

PME profile verification for Adobe RGB profile

The profile does not change at all between my 2 verifications. This is why I was saying in my earlier post the profile does not change. Did I really verify Adobe RGB? If I change the color management profile to the sRGB profile but keep the Adobe RGB calibration in the OSD, the verification fails.

Thanks again for your advice and help. It is so helpful to discuss these issues with someone. I did send an email regarding this issue to BenQ support last Friday and have not heard anything yet.

Greg

If you are running a calibration and you have checked those value manually, I would trust that it is correct. There may be a bug in the verification of the profile name, I would have to double check this. Because it is supposed to pick up the system profile. I'll get back to you.

I now do trust that the verification is correct. And Panel Native is now working well with PME 1.3.10! I've tested/verified my 3 calibrations (Adobe RGB, sRGB, and Panel Native) and they all pass. Please do check if there is a bug when you have time. My system is pretty much a vanilla Windows 10 system. I've disabled the DisplayCal profile loader so that color management is managed through Windows and Palette Master Element.

On the second test when you change the profile to sRGB and keep Adobe RGB in the OSD, is a proof that it is not measuring the right correspond profile and color space.

I agree.

Hope this helps,

Art

You have been a great help in calming my nerves and convincing me that Palette Master Element is working properly AND my SW270C is working fine as well. The last couple of days I've relaxed and started enjoying using it.

Thanks much,

Greg

 

[alexis41]

I have lost faith to pallete master and generally in benq

Care to elaborate?

For the record I speak only for myself and YMMV. I have owned the Benq SW270C for 7 months. I am very happy with the build and panel quality.

It is not a competitor for the top of the line Eizo's or NEC's. It is significantly cheaper, and at its price point it represents good value for money. You want better than spend the money for better.

Sure, the Benq documentation and communication with its user base could be better. The Palette-master software truly sucks at this stage. I did download Palette-master v1.3.10 which mysteriously appeared without explanation or documentation last night and it seems to correct some of the more egregious defects.

A frequent poster to this site, "Artisright", is valiantly filling in the missing gaps of the Benq communications system. For anybody having problems with the Benq monitors his Youtube channel is a fund of knowledge.

-rs-

The monitor has a glare problem (i bet yours has too cause i havent seen one without and some reviewers are mentioning too ), they are failing for too many years to fix their software and it practically is false advertisment saying that you can hardware calibrate it, the hood is so poorly designed that the colorimeter doesnt fit into it (not big problem just showing how poorly made it is) on top of that some monitors have also power issues (you need to unplug power and then replug in order to start the monitor.Even if you get lucky and pallet master works the calibration isnt as good as displaycall or i1 profiler.I got answer to my support ticket after more than one month and another month after i replied.Another issue is that the monitor doesnt cover 100% adobe and srgb as they advertise it.
If things work as they should no need for anyone to fill in the gaps and suggest workarounds.

 

[ArtIsRight]

Hi Greg,

I have been busy but I will check that soon.

Otherwise, you're welcome and enjoy my friend.

Art

 

[Roy Sletcher]

I have lost faith to pallete master and generally in benq

Care to elaborate?

For the record I speak only for myself and YMMV. I have owned the Benq SW270C for 7 months. I am very happy with the build and panel quality.

It is not a competitor for the top of the line Eizo's or NEC's. It is significantly cheaper, and at its price point it represents good value for money. You want better than spend the money for better.

Sure, the Benq documentation and communication with its user base could be better. The Palette-master software truly sucks at this stage. I did download Palette-master v1.3.10 which mysteriously appeared without explanation or documentation last night and it seems to correct some of the more egregious defects.

A frequent poster to this site, "Artisright", is valiantly filling in the missing gaps of the Benq communications system. For anybody having problems with the Benq monitors his Youtube channel is a fund of knowledge.

-rs-

The monitor has a glare problem (i bet yours has too cause i havent seen one without and some reviewers are mentioning too ), they are failing for too many years to fix their software and it practically is false advertisment saying that you can hardware calibrate it, the hood is so poorly designed that the colorimeter doesnt fit into it (not big problem just showing how poorly made it is) on top of that some monitors have also power issues (you need to unplug power and then replug in order to start the monitor.

This sentence is so garbled I do not know where to begin. No matter. Can you give some citations or references to substantiate your claims. For example who are "some reviewers"?

Otherwise your comment is just an unverified personal opinion of little or no significance.

I find the fact that you claim to know what my display looks like so ridiculous it is amusing. Time travel maybe?

Even if you get lucky and pallet master works the calibration isnt as good as displaycall or i1 profiler.I got answer to my support ticket after more than one month and another month after i replied.Another issue is that the monitor doesnt cover 100% adobe and srgb as they advertise it.

Fully agree the Palette-master Software is buggy. You illogical ranting neglects to mention many vendors deliver buggy software. Ever heard of Microsoft, Dell, X-Rite and many others not mentioned above who regularly deliver updated software with defects.

If things work as they should no need for anyone to fill in the gaps and suggest workarounds.

Also agree their response to problems is bad. Again I refer you to the usual suspects mentioned above.

The solution to your problem is very simple. You have a five year Benq warranty. Return it, pay the price and purchase a top of the line Eizo or NEC monitor and stop whining here.

As for me I do NOT have a glare problem and am very happy with my Benq purchase.

-rs-

 

[alexis41]

These are for the ips glow

https://petapixel.com/2019/10/02/benq-sw270c-photo-editing-monitor-review-worth-the-upgrade/

the guy who started the topic mentioned that he isnt reaching 100 adobe rgb neither do i with two monitors but if you do i would be interested to see some proof.

Also it is easy for you to check that colorimeter doesn't fit into the port of the hood so to sum it up these aren't my personal opinions

you might got lucky or ignorance is a bless but anyway no need to debate if you like your monitor i 'm happy for you and have no intention to change your mind or spend more time on the topic

 

[Jack Hogan]

The Benq SW270c seems to calibrate pretty well in late 2022 with Win 11. I used the current version of Palette Master Elements for the hardware calibration and DisplayCAL for Verification and gamut coverage. I went for my preferred white point of 6000K at 65 cd/m^2 for my relatively dark setup. I chose 'Native Gamut' in PME with the large patch set and got a contrast ratio just short of 900:1. This is PME's Validation Report

I then used DisplayCAL for verification, and got similar results:

Note that in order for DisplayCAL to do its bit I had to select the appropriate CCSS cross-corrections for the SW270c and the i1 Display Pro, as can be seen in the printout. The relative database is here. There are reports that PME uses different corrections for this colorimeter but results seem to be decently close with the 2022 set I selected.

Finally, in order to get an idea of gamut coverage by the panel as calibrated I ran DisplayCAL in Profile only mode (no GPU involved) to get the relative calcs:

[This was just to check the coverage, the SW270c is calibrated in hardware, if you do this do not install the profile at the end of the process.]

Looks like marketing got a bit ahead of their skateboard with their claim of 97% DCI-P3/Display P3 coverage*. Anyways, I bought the panel for its Adobe RGB credentials and it delivers there. All in all I am a happy camper with this fine mid-priced monitor.

Jack

* Or is it just that the criteria for 'coverage' are different? Benq's are apparently deltaE less than 2, don't know DisplayCAL/Argyll's but I would assume it computes it based on actual space intersections.