Move on from Foveon

[fronko]

20 Megapixels for a FFF is definitely not enough.

For whom?

It's much more than enough for me!

 

[D Cox]

20 Megapixels for a FFF is definitely not enough.

For whom?

It's much more than enough for me!

Entry level today is 24 Mpix, and customers expect a low price for that. It's no good saying "But these are better pixels" as this can be countered by "I don't want a weird camera."

 

[Buttons252]

There is a lot more to sharpness then just megapixels. I struggle to see ANY difference between my 24mp A7ii and 42mp A7R2. I think the sigmas are unique not having an AA / CFA

 

[D Cox]

There is a lot more to sharpness then just megapixels.

Yes, but Nyquist sets the upper limit to resolution.

I struggle to see ANY difference between my 24mp A7ii and 42mp A7R2. I think the sigmas are unique not having an AA / CFA

Most current FF cameras, probably all, do not have an AA filter.

The A7R2 has 33% higher resolution than the A72. Every little helps.

 

[Ceistinne]

The DP2M was launched in 2012. The only current Foveon Sigma camera, the dp and sp Quattro's, were launched in 2014 & 2016. respectively. For electronic devices, they are old. Earlier SD and DP cameras are now very old. Only Ricoh with its GR has had such a long periods without new models.

The cameras' ages alone, makes it no surprise that people "move on". These old cameras will fail entirely or end up with intermittent faults and their values make them irrational to repair, even if it is possible to do so. I've got a dead DP1s with a failed focus mechanism. It looks like a new camera but it's useless.

All the above are statements of the blindly obvious but because of them, Sigma have to acknowledge their loyal Foveon buyers will drift away. Getting them back will be hard, even if a full frame Foveon (FFF) sensor camera is launched.

There is no doubt that Sigma can produce a camera with a very high build quality cameras and the fp is an excellent example. I gather it's been popular and looking at some of the photos it produces with the Sigma Art lenses, especially in conditions where the Foveon cameras are hopeless, its popularity comes as no surprise.

If a FFF camera is delivered in 2021 - and I now sense that is a big if - and it is sensible money what is the expected market? I'd guess it would be tiny. If it ends up as a camera that only shines at ISO 100, then it's an even smaller market. To add to Sigma's FFF challenge, Bayer sensors have improved since the Quattro launch in 2014.

For me, I guess I'll carry on as an occasional amateur photographer using my current Sigma Foveon cameras when I can and until they pack up. I certainly wouldn't have them repaired. I'm potentially a prime customer for the FFF at the moment but that situation is fading.

Best, Steve

Steve,

I think you should email exactly what you have written here directly to Kazuto Yamaki at Sigma Japan, because I think you are right and people will continue to drop off unless some information is released soon regarding the FFF or some other new camera offering. I was tempted to copy your post myself but would not do so without your permission.

S

 

[DavidMillier]

20 Megapixels for a FFF is definitely not enough.

For whom?

It's much more than enough for me!

Entry level today is 24 Mpix, and customers expect a low price for that. It's no good saying "But these are better pixels" as this can be countered by "I don't want a weird camera."

Expect a low price for an entry level Nikon APS-C 24MP but expect a much higher price for a full frame 24MP. 4x the price for 1 stop extra high iso noise handling and maybe1/2 stop extra DR. A steep price increase for a modest improvement. I guess what counts as "low" when it comes to price is variable?

 

[DavidMillier]

There is a lot more to sharpness then just megapixels.

Yes, but Nyquist sets the upper limit to resolution.

I struggle to see ANY difference between my 24mp A7ii and 42mp A7R2. I think the sigmas are unique not having an AA / CFA

Most current FF cameras, probably all, do not have an AA filter.

The A7R2 has 33% higher resolution than the A72. Every little helps.

My usual rule of thumb for judging whether sensor resolution increases are worthwhile has always been: if you double the pixel count you can usually see a pleasing improvement. If you increase the pixel count by 50% it usually visible but not that obvious. Thom Hogan reckons a 25% increase is the minimum that is actually detectable (not significant, just detectable).

Using that formula the A7R2 is not quite enough to be a completely pleasing upgrade but should be enough to reliably noticeable. The fact that you aren't seeing much difference is probably a pointer to diminishing returns in that as pixel counts get very high, technique, lens, support etc have to be impeccable to achieve the hoped for gains. You could probably set things up artificially to prove there is a noticeable difference but struggle to attain that in normal photography.

When I upgraded from my 6MP D100 to the 14MP Kodak 14n, I saw an instant and obvious upgrade in resolution. I've not seen anything like that degree of improvement with any other cameras I've used. I suspect that the move from 6MP cameras to 12-16MP class cameras was probably the biggest and most obvious improvement to be had, Anything since has been relatively subtle incremental improvement despite the numbers sounding impressive.

 

[Lukacs85]

My main concern with 24MP FF cameras not the lower resolution, but the presence of aliasing filter. I had moire problem less than 1% of my shots, but after foveon I just can't stand AA filter effect on sharpness, what I can see 100% of pictures.

 

[Roger]

Greetings Sigma Fans

I hear and understand what your saying. I myself have just purchased/been loaned a Olympus E-M1 with battery pack, 12-40 f2.8 Pro lens and Flash for $625 USD. It's has 19,000 action on it. I did a lot of research as to what is the best weather sealed, least repaired or camera and lenses that needs least repairs and the Olympus OM-D (in my case the E-M1) came up first for needing the least repair and having the best weather sealing. By the way it has no AA filter. I been using it for 2 weeks now and I have to say, after the learning curve it's impressive it matches my SD15 for sharpness. It's fast, accurate and small even with the battery pack, maybe to small. People said I should buy a Sony and use a adapter, but I can't, I hate Sony for personal reasons. Although it seems Sigma is making lenses for the Sony and L mount only at this time.

Down side, I'm a Sigma/Foveon fan/loyalist I've been using Sigma sense the 1970's, with my Olympus M1/OM system, but my gear is getting old, and is on the big size for today's work. I stopped taking my gear out in bad weather as I didn't want it to break down on me. My SDQ-H likes to over heat and I get noise that I never use to get. I'm working on that.

I'm waiting for the FF Foveon, if or when it ever comes out, but in the meantime I thought the E-M1 would work and it does, but I still take my Sigma's with me. they stay in my bag most of the time. The Foveon has a look to it that you won't get anywhere else. Olympus cameras have been sold to JLP, meaning??? I don't know for sure, but from what I've read and been told they dismantle companies, it's a way to get around Japan's pension laws and other things. I do not know. Anyway the gear is cheap right now and very good so I'm giving it a try, although there will be no updates, but we are in the same boat with Sigma at this time as the SA/SD have been discontinued as well, although Sigma is still in business. I'm waiting for the FFF I hope it's sooner than later.

There's nowhere left to go from here, really. The people here for the most part, are very good nice people, I found that some of the other forums are not so nice.

I also have Nikon FF but they're up for sale even though I'm on the NPS program.

Just my two cents for what it's worth.

Stay safe but Have Fun

Roger J.

 

[Johan Borg]

My main concern with 24MP FF cameras not the lower resolution, but the presence of aliasing filter. I had moire problem less than 1% of my shots, but after foveon I just can't stand AA filter effect on sharpness, what I can see 100% of pictures.

Then I can recommend the L-mount cameras Sigma fp, Panasonic S1 or Panasonic S5, all 24mp full frame cameras without antialias filter.

On the other hand, I see moiré in many of my fp photos, probably a side effect of being spoiled by Foveon for too long ;-)

 

[furtle]

The DP2M was launched in 2012. The only current Foveon Sigma camera, the dp and sp Quattro's, were launched in 2014 & 2016. respectively. For electronic devices, they are old. Earlier SD and DP cameras are now very old. Only Ricoh with its GR has had such a long periods without new models.

The cameras' ages alone, makes it no surprise that people "move on". These old cameras will fail entirely or end up with intermittent faults and their values make them irrational to repair, even if it is possible to do so. I've got a dead DP1s with a failed focus mechanism. It looks like a new camera but it's useless.

All the above are statements of the blindly obvious but because of them, Sigma have to acknowledge their loyal Foveon buyers will drift away. Getting them back will be hard, even if a full frame Foveon (FFF) sensor camera is launched.

There is no doubt that Sigma can produce a camera with a very high build quality cameras and the fp is an excellent example. I gather it's been popular and looking at some of the photos it produces with the Sigma Art lenses, especially in conditions where the Foveon cameras are hopeless, its popularity comes as no surprise.

If a FFF camera is delivered in 2021 - and I now sense that is a big if - and it is sensible money what is the expected market? I'd guess it would be tiny. If it ends up as a camera that only shines at ISO 100, then it's an even smaller market. To add to Sigma's FFF challenge, Bayer sensors have improved since the Quattro launch in 2014.

For me, I guess I'll carry on as an occasional amateur photographer using my current Sigma Foveon cameras when I can and until they pack up. I certainly wouldn't have them repaired. I'm potentially a prime customer for the FFF at the moment but that situation is fading.

Best, Steve

Steve,

I think you should email exactly what you have written here directly to Kazuto Yamaki at Sigma Japan, because I think you are right and people will continue to drop off unless some information is released soon regarding the FFF or some other new camera offering. I was tempted to copy your post myself but would not do so without your permission.

S

Thank you. If Sigma don’t have somebody reading this forum, I’d be amazed. They know the situation.

 

[Rudi]

Thank you. If Sigma don’t have somebody reading this forum, I’d be amazed. They know the situation.

... and they know what they want. There are cameras for all imaginable purposes in the world wide offers. Foveon cameras are different tools and I think it would be wrong to ask for an allround all purpose stills-, video- and gaming computer camera.

This area should be left to Zeiss. They allready startet with Android OS. The concept of an easy to handle, serious, conventional camera to take high class pictures might be a niche in todays market, but I think it would pay out in the long run.

Rudi.

 

[dan_darkroom]

I have a Sony and bought a SD Q for fun. I mainly use the Sony, but once in a while I take the SD Q out. I will keep it that way.

On a side note, I presume Foveon development is pretty dead. That means, my SD Q will at least keep it's value. Whereas my Sony in the long run.....

 

[Johan Borg]

I have a Sony and bought a SD Q for fun. I mainly use the Sony, but once in a while I take the SD Q out. I will keep it that way.

On a side note, I presume Foveon development is pretty dead. That means, my SD Q will at least keep it's value. Whereas my Sony in the long run.....

They've filed new patents this year, so I wouldn't rule out that planned full frame Foveon, they just take their time.

And the reason they should do it is clear from your comment:

Foveon may not be perfect in every situation, but it's brilliant in combination with a high-ISO general purpose camera. With L-mount you can now combine Foveon and Bayer (from 3 brands, even) with the same lenses. That broadens the appeal of a future Foveon camera quite a bit - and means that Sigma can focus on the strengths of Foveon and bother less with compromises.

 

[Lukacs85]

My main concern with 24MP FF cameras not the lower resolution, but the presence of aliasing filter. I had moire problem less than 1% of my shots, but after foveon I just can't stand AA filter effect on sharpness, what I can see 100% of pictures.

Then I can recommend the L-mount cameras Sigma fp, Panasonic S1 or Panasonic S5, all 24mp full frame cameras without antialias filter.

On the other hand, I see moiré in many of my fp photos, probably a side effect of being spoiled by Foveon for too long ;-)

Thanks the suggestion, but already have taken into consideration all of theese cameras. FP lacks viewfinder, doesn't have mechanical shutter. S1 is more expensive than A7r2, lower resolution, and definetly bigger. S5 may better option, and almost went on this route. Defintely recommend S5 who want to go for FF Foveon in future, they complemet each other perfectly.

My firs priority was the Voigtlander 40 f1.2 because DP2M FOV is my favourite for walk around, and alwasy wanted that film MF look with shallow DOF. The 40 1.2 is the best option for this, and I have to buy a body for the lens. It's an FE lens, it comunicates with the body, but only FE bodies (or Leica M with M version). Also I find A7r2 is a quite affordable high resolution body for hobbists, even with flaws it's more than enough for my needs.

 

[D Cox]

My main concern with 24MP FF cameras not the lower resolution, but the presence of aliasing filter. I had moire problem less than 1% of my shots, but after foveon I just can't stand AA filter effect on sharpness, what I can see 100% of pictures.

Then I can recommend the L-mount cameras Sigma fp, Panasonic S1 or Panasonic S5, all 24mp full frame cameras without antialias filter.

On the other hand, I see moiré in many of my fp photos, probably a side effect of being spoiled by Foveon for too long ;-)

Thanks the suggestion, but already have taken into consideration all of theese cameras. FP lacks viewfinder, doesn't have mechanical shutter. S1 is more expensive than A7r2, lower resolution, and definetly bigger. S5 may better option, and almost went on this route. Defintely recommend S5 who want to go for FF Foveon in future, they complemet each other perfectly.

My firs priority was the Voigtlander 40 f1.2 because DP2M FOV is my favourite for walk around, and alwasy wanted that film MF look with shallow DOF. The 40 1.2 is the best option for this, and I have to buy a body for the lens. It's an FE lens, it comunicates with the body, but only FE bodies (or Leica M with M version). Also I find A7r2 is a quite affordable high resolution body for hobbists, even with flaws it's more than enough for my needs.

The fp lacks an EVF, but the view with the loupe is superb, and omitting an EVF increases battery stamina.

The downside of course is that you have a large camera, comparable to a medium format film camera such as a Mamiya Press or an RB67.

 

[furtle]

The fp lacks an EVF, but the view with the loupe is superb, and omitting an EVF increases battery stamina.

The downside of course is that you have a large camera, comparable to a medium format film camera such as a Mamiya Press or an RB67.

How easy is it to focus manual focus lenses on the fp without the loup ?



I assume the Sigma DG lenses focus well in auto mode. Is this right?

Have you tested any wide angle adapted lenses on the fp? I know that these were poor performers on my Sony A7S. Even an expensive Zeiss 21mm was terrible at the edges.



perhaps we need a thread on the fp? I’m curious about it as a stills camera but most reviews are from video makers who revel in taking a small camera and bolting on a massive amount of stuff to make a huge ‘rig’

 

[D Cox]

The fp lacks an EVF, but the view with the loupe is superb, and omitting an EVF increases battery stamina.

The downside of course is that you have a large camera, comparable to a medium format film camera such as a Mamiya Press or an RB67.

How easy is it to focus manual focus lenses on the fp without the loup ?

Not nearly as easy. Much the same as manual focus on the DP3M -- OK in the studio with controlled light, difficult out of doors.

I assume the Sigma DG lenses focus well in auto mode. Is this right?

I don't as yet have any auto focus lenses in L mount. I bought the fp mainly for use with he manual lenses that I already have. I may buy an auto lens next year, but money is tight these days.

Have you tested any wide angle adapted lenses on the fp? I know that these were poor performers on my Sony A7S. Even an expensive Zeiss 21mm was terrible at the edges.

The Nikkor 24 and 20mm did not give good results. 35mm lenses are fine.

perhaps we need a thread on the fp? I’m curious about it as a stills camera but most reviews are from video makers who revel in taking a small camera and bolting on a massive amount of stuff to make a huge ‘rig’

 

[furtle]

The fp lacks an EVF, but the view with the loupe is superb, and omitting an EVF increases battery stamina.

The downside of course is that you have a large camera, comparable to a medium format film camera such as a Mamiya Press or an RB67.

How easy is it to focus manual focus lenses on the fp without the loup ?

Not nearly as easy. Much the same as manual focus on the DP3M -- OK in the studio with controlled light, difficult out of doors.

I assume the Sigma DG lenses focus well in auto mode. Is this right?

I don't as yet have any auto focus lenses in L mount. I bought the fp mainly for use with he manual lenses that I already have. I may buy an auto lens next year, but money is tight these days.

Have you tested any wide angle adapted lenses on the fp? I know that these were poor performers on my Sony A7S. Even an expensive Zeiss 21mm was terrible at the edges.

The Nikkor 24 and 20mm did not give good results. 35mm lenses are fine.

perhaps we need a thread on the fp? I’m curious about it as a stills camera but most reviews are from video makers who revel in taking a small camera and bolting on a massive amount of stuff to make a huge ‘rig’

Thank you. Manual focusing a sigma DP/dp is pretty hopeless. I would have though the fp with a better back screen, magnification and peaking would be much better. Ummm.

As for wide angle lenses, I found the Voigtländer 15 mm/1:4.5 Super Wide Heliar III worked very well on my Sony A7S. I sold it when I realised the Sigma dp0 Quattro was a brilliant wide angle, landscape camera. So, maybe that VM 15mm will be good on the fp. Who knows as no one seems to use the fp as a stills camera.

Would the Sigma SA lenses with auto focus and an SA to L adapter work in auto focus mode on the fp?

 

[Johan Borg]

Thank you. Manual focusing a sigma DP/dp is pretty hopeless. I would have though the fp with a better back screen, magnification and peaking would be much better. Ummm.

As for wide angle lenses, I found the Voigtländer 15 mm/1:4.5 Super Wide Heliar III worked very well on my Sony A7S. I sold it when I realised the Sigma dp0 Quattro was a brilliant wide angle, landscape camera. So, maybe that VM 15mm will be good on the fp. Who knows as no one seems to use the fp as a stills camera.

We're a small club But I haven't used any manual lenses so far, only have the (underrated) 45mm f/2.8 and I usually trust the AF. Peaking works best when combined with magnification.

The fp sensor is thought to be a Sony, so similar issues are to be expected.

Would the Sigma SA lenses with auto focus and an SA to L adapter work in auto focus mode on the fp?

Global Series lenses (Art, Contemporary, Sports) typically work in AF on the fp, older lenses less likely ( see https://www.sigma-global.com/en/lenses/cas/product/accessories/mount-converter/#mc-21 ).