more E1 sample image (no noise !)

  • Thread starter Thread starter William Chang
  • Start date Start date
Quite true. But they're not, particularly useful for side by side
comparison of cameras. That is why I pointed out that "Right now,
the only iamges taken, of the same subject in the same conditions,
are Phils."
But the only photos from Phil that meet that definition are the shots of the Gretag MacBeth ColorChecker chart. Not what I'd call very illuminating except for noise comparisons. (And even then, there are limitations.)

Kevin

p.s. Can everyone please calm down a little? Whether the E-1 succeeds or fails isn't going to make that big of a difference in the world, is it?
 
... perception, Joe.
... seen two such totally negative flapjaws before.
Take a long, serious look in the mirror. I looked over your posting
history, and it is quite negative, mostly sarcastic, and riffled
with personal attacks.
Fair point. I don't tolerate fools gladly. One of my many weak points :-)
Have you ever done anything as positive as my "most exciting E1
features" post?
You call that positive... OK, each to their own.
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1022&message=5426172
Starting to
think they've something to prove. Don't really know why they hang
around here if Oly's are such a disappointment to them.
Apparently, you haven't read very many of my posts.
Not true.
I'm rather fond
of the E-1, it's a highly innovative camera. I've explained, at
length, how the dust cleaner system worked (including the physics
behind it).
Thank you, but I did ultrasonics in one of my earlier lives.
There's an awful lot I'm fond of in this camera.
Doesn't come across as such. Perhaps you should re-read your own posts.
And, it should be clear that I have much respect for the Oly
engineers, but very little for their marketing people. I do believe
that most of their "designed for digital" takl and "4/3 consortium"
talk is just an attempt to grab attention, and does not agree with
the reality of the camera.
The truth is, there is no reality (yet).
 
Actually, I was not. You post was not sufficiently interesting, and
I treat such as "below my radar". But since you asked directly....
I am glad that you are above ad hominems, or I should take offense at that ;-)
There was no "might" involved. You said "I'm gonna get an E-1 just
to torque the jaws of Mr. Wisniewski and Mr. Karlson."
And as you note below I then wrote, "Actually, I probably won't get an E-1..." I think that the "contradictory" statements might suggest a "might" to the less rigid mind.
Now,...that is a statement that you are going
to do something purely for the purpose of annoying someone else. In
short, a personal attack.
Ah, very good! Sort of like "You post was not sufficiently interesting, and I treat such as 'below my radar' "? Oh, wait, you don't do that sort of thing. Much. OK.
...you knew, to an extremely high degree of certainty, that neither
myself or Mr.Karlson were "beaten with an Olympus camera as children".
Your zeal (if reasonable) leads me to think it was a (reasonable) possibility.
What there is wrong information and how is it indefensible?
Well, since you later stated that "Actually, I probably won't get
an E-1...", your yourself have proven your first statement wrong,
and have successfully breeched its defences. Your rhetorical
question, by its own nature, is self negating.
Of course, my first statement is not necessarily "wrong": I could be passing through a decision process -- changing my mind. I said that "I probably won't get an E-1..." which is different from saying that I definitely won't get an E-1.

Might get one yet, maybe just (in a very uninteresting and beneath-your-radar attempt) to torque your jaws. Please feel no obligation to respond at length (as you seem to have inexplicably (in light of your impeccable standards) done here).

Of course, the fact that I might do so would make your statement that "your [sic] yourself have proven your first statement wrong," well, wrong. Sorry -- a subtle distinction, but one that must be made.
I can get an E-1 ... for any reason ("good" ... that suits me,
That is true. However, as you said, "Actually, I probably won't get
an E-1...", therefore your statement was made for no other purpose
than to annoy two people. "just to torque the jaws of...."
Uh, see above, and actually, it served several purposes, that was just one. Since, as you note below, you can grasp the subtle, I won't list them all here.
a question is not, in itself, wrong information, it is an effort to seek
the right information from those who would presumedly know.
Do you expect anyone to believe that you were making an honest and
sinceer attempt to find out if Mr. Karlson and myself were "beaten
with an Olympus camera as children"?
What else am I to surmise if your anti-4/3 zeal is reasonable? Or, if you in missed some of the subtler subleties throughout this post, yeah, I wouldn't put it past you to fall for that. Take your pick, whichever most/least offends you.
As I said above, there are worse things than hyperbole,
Quite true. There is thinly veiled sarcasm. There is really bad humor.
Veiled? Oh, that must be why you though you perceived the subtler aspects of my post. Honest mistake. But if the humor is good (or at least not bad) -- but subtle? This is sometimes a difficult line to tread.
...Your calling my request for information "wrong information"
is not hyperbole, but just plain, well, wrong.
Again, no one would construe your rhetorical question as a "request
for information".
See above. A second reading might bring clarity and I can type slower if that helps.
Those issues aside, I was subtly (I'm pointing this out to you as
you seem to have difficulty grasping the subtlety)
I assure you, I have no difficulty with the subtle.
You put me in an awkward position: I either must take your word for this, or the empirical evidence to the contrary.
addressing your seemingly religious zeal in denouncing an
unreleased camera on scant preliminary evidence.
As I have pointed out, I have made numerous positive statements
about this camera.
I think you made one that you noted in another thread (where you also posted this: http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1022&message=5427570 ). It could be argued that the bulk of your posts concerning the E-1 are that it is not a good thing or not good enough -- which may be entirely true. My point (again -- you may have missed this) was not the validity of your criticism, but your seemingly-zealous agitation that someone might actually like the concept E-1 (for now) and the actual execution of the same (in the future).

As I said,
It very well might be the worst camera ever made.
Of course, nobody here but Phil has actually had his or her hands
on one, and that was not, apparently, a production camera (Phil
calls it an "initial production" camera, distinguishing his preview
"as a prelude to the full reivew using a production camera").
And, as several people (myself included) "initial production" has
an established definition, a saleable (sellable) product.
Anything can be sold, but Phil felt the need to distinguish this from a "production camera." Maybe he just has higher standards than you. Hey, it happens.
Take it from me: that new unreleased Mel Gibson movie SUCKS.
Nobody should pay money to see it. You'll hate it, all of you.
Excellent example. You provide no explanation or reasoning, just
condemnation. I do provide the technical explanations to back up my
statements.
..about preliminary information on an unreleased camera not in final production. Yup, you do.
You might want to see someone about those voices in your head.
See someone? Aren't the voices enough?

But thanks for not attacking me!
 
p.s. Can everyone please calm down a little? Whether the E-1
succeeds or fails isn't going to make that big of a difference in
the world, is it?
Fully agree.

Roland
 
Actually, I was not. You post was not sufficiently interesting, and
I treat such as "below my radar". But since you asked directly....
I am glad that you are above ad hominems, or I should take offense
at that ;-)
You could simply try reading this as it was written, that one particular post of yours was not sufficiently interesting to me to respond to. I have found other things you have written sufficiently interesting to volly back and forth for quite a while.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1022&message=5719957

This is a fairly normal thing. Do you find every post I write interesting enough to respond to (or ever to read completly)? Or are many (most) of them below your radar?
Now,...that is a statement that you are going
to do something purely for the purpose of annoying someone else. In
short, a personal attack.
Ah, very good! Sort of like "You post was not sufficiently
interesting, and I treat such as 'below my radar' "? Oh, wait, you
don't do that sort of thing. Much. OK.
Fascinating. Apparently, we have not covered this well enough already. You made a personal attack, stated that you were going to do something expensive and annoying, purely to irritate myself and one other. You have also stated (my paraphrase) that you believe that there is a strong possibility that my opinions are the result of haveing been beaten as a child.

Now you are angry because I am not sufficiently irritated (the "below my radar" statement).
Of course, my first statement is not necessarily "wrong": I could
be passing through a decision process -- changing my mind. I said
that "I probably won't get an E-1..." which is different from
saying that I definitely won't get an E-1.
Sorry, that doesn't hold water. Posting is not verbal communication. "there is no stream" of conciousness. You are typing into an editor window. If you change you mind about a statement, you remove it, rather than adding a correction farther along in the post.
Might get one yet, maybe just (in a very uninteresting and
beneath-your-radar attempt) to torque your jaws.
Go for it. You will find it an extremely expensive thing to do "just" to annoy me.
Please feel no
obligation to respond at length (as you seem to have inexplicably
(in light of your impeccable standards) done here).

Of course, the fact that I might do so would make your statement
that "your [sic] yourself have proven your first statement wrong,"
well, wrong. Sorry -- a subtle distinction, but one that must be
made.
If you wish to spend over $2000 just to do so, I would find it most amusing. I had no idea I was so important in the overall scheme of things that someone would go to so much effort just to annoy me.
Or,
if you in missed some of the subtler subleties throughout this
post, yeah, I wouldn't put it past you to fall for that.
Yet another insult.
Take your
pick, whichever most/least offends you.
How about I don't pick any of your interpretations, and stick with the truth, that you made a post simply to offend two people, and are totally unapologetic about this.
and I can type slower if that helps.
Yet another insult.
Those issues aside, I was subtly (I'm pointing this out to you as
you seem to have difficulty grasping the subtlety)
One more insult. But don't take my word for it. I assure you, I not only grasp subtlety, I can even spell it.

I suggest, in the interest of your own self development, that you show what you have written to someone you believe is relatively impartial, and ask if you have shown any evidence of subtle humor.
I assure you, I have no difficulty with the subtle.
You put me in an awkward position: I either must take your word for
this, or the empirical evidence to the contrary.
It's not an awkward position. As I have suggested, if you simply ask a newtral party for som commentary on the appropriatness of your conduct, or on your skill as a subtle writer, I am quite sure that they will agree that you were insulting, and that you were obviously attempting to be agrevating.
I think you made one that you noted in another thread (where you
also posted this:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1022&message=5427570
Correct, in direct response to Walter Freiberger's "Poll: biggest disappointments". Just as if someone asks me what three things disappoint me most about the Nikon 20mm f2.8 (probably my favorite lens) I can still objectively answer.

Although I do not recall anyone actually asking "what things about Joseph Wisniewski do you find disappointing". Nor were the instructions "please make sure your responses are insulting, maybe throw in something about a childhood beating. After all, there is nothing in this whole world more subtle and humerous than beating children".

--
Ciao!

Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com
 
So there are no doubts in your mind, whatsoever, about weather or not there is hidden meaning here, I do assure you that this is not an attempt at subtle humor on my part.

I consider your statements concerning the possiblity that my behavior is the result of a childhood beating to be absolutly inappropriate, and I expect a sincere apology.

--
Ciao!

Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com
 
So ... those good pictures ... are they extra ordinary. And would
they still be extra ordinary at ISO 800?
If you were shooting those on FILM, would you choose ISO 800 film?
If my choices were between two brands of film, and one could yield the same grain and tonal range at ISO 800 as the other could at ISO 100, I certainly would shoot the 800 most of the time.

Now Phil's findings with the "initial production" E-1 don't indicate that competing cameras have a 3 stop ISO advantage ofver it, but it looks like the Fuji and Canon offerings have pretty close to a 2 stop advantage. This is certainly enough to make a difference in one's shooting style.
I sure wouldn't, and I wouldn't select anything less than ISO 100
on a digital for those shots.
I shoot Nikon D100 DSLRs. ISO 200 is their lowest setting.
I printed some of the 'noisey' photos posted last week. Yes, at
100% on my monitor, there is visable noise. But printed at 8x10 om
my cheap HP they look great!
Quite possibly. Even my Canon S400 will produce a stunning 8x10, if there's enough light for a low ISO.
This noise debate is a bunch of hooey - if it works for you, use it.
Exactly. It's just one facet in an entire system. For many people, a clean CCD every time they turn on the camera is going to outweigh the noise. No more "flocks of UFOs" on those low ISO, small aperture landscapes.

Buying a camera is a highly personal decision. The best one can do is discuss strenghts and weaknesses, in depth, without calling any one thing a "show stopper" or a "must have".

--
Ciao!

Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com
 
You have to compere the 300mm 2.8 from olympus with the 400mm 2.8 from Nikon( this one is 11.000 euro)
Actually, when you take the differences in aspect ratio (4:3 vs.
3:2) and the differences in pixel count (5MP vs 6MP) it's much more
easonable to compare 300mm to 300mm. The Canon and Oly end up
exactly even, but you'd need a 330mm to even things out for Nikon.
For those of us whose enlargements are mostly 4/3 shape or squarer, what probably counts most is either the ratio of frame heights, or the ratio of pixel sizes if you allow for cropping to a certain pixel count (but this changes with each new camera).

Frame heights are 13.1mm for the E-1, 15.1mm for Canon 10D, 15.6mm for Nikon
D100,
giving a comparison of 300mm to 346mm to 357mm.

Pixel pitches are 6.8, 7.5 and 8 microns
giving a comparison of 300mm to 331mm to 353mm.

I imagine that price is somewhat inversely related to sales volume, so this lens is positioned in a low volume niched a bit like its 35mm format equivalents (500 or 600mm) as far as expected sales, with the 50-200 zoom already covering a lot of what is traditionally done with 300mm and even 400mm lenses.
 
...This is a fairly normal thing. Do you find every post I write
interesting enough to respond to (or ever to read completly)? Or
are many (most) of them below your radar?
Uh, no. I mean yes. No, I mean -- could you repeat the question?
Fascinating. Apparently, we have not covered this well enough
already. You made a personal attack, stated that you were going to
do something expensive and annoying, purely to irritate myself and
one other. You have also stated (my paraphrase) that you believe
that there is a strong possibility that my opinions are the result
of haveing been beaten as a child.
"Beaten with an Olympus." By leaving out "Olympus," your paraphrase changes the entire context of my original post.
Now you are angry because I am not sufficiently irritated (the
"below my radar" statement).
I'm not angry at all. Really.
Sorry, that doesn't hold water. Posting is not verbal
communication. "there is no stream" of conciousness. You are typing
into an editor window. If you change you mind about a statement,
you remove it, rather than adding a correction farther along in the
post.
Well, then, if it holds no water, I guess it was too dry for some tastes. Oh, and tell Faulkner that his books are "not verbal communication" and to knock of the SOC stuff.
Go for it. You will find it an extremely expensive thing to do
"just" to annoy me.
Actually, I seem to be annoying you just fine right now, and for only the cost of internet access. Hey, wait, that bill's already paid -- so it's like I can annoy you for free!
Please feel no
obligation to respond at length (as you seem to have inexplicably
(in light of your impeccable standards) done here).

Of course, the fact that I might do so would make your statement
that "your [sic] yourself have proven your first statement wrong,"
well, wrong. Sorry -- a subtle distinction, but one that must be
made.
If you wish to spend over $2000 just to do so, I would find it most
amusing. I had no idea I was so important in the overall scheme of
things that someone would go to so much effort just to annoy me.
Well I'm glad you found SOMETHING here amusing. I was beginning to think -- well, you probably don't care what I was thinking.
Or,
if you in missed some of the subtler subleties throughout this
post, yeah, I wouldn't put it past you to fall for that.
Yet another insult.
Yup. I guess have to take back that part about you not getting the subtle stuff.
Take your
pick, whichever most/least offends you.
How about I don't pick any of your interpretations, and stick with
the truth, that you made a post simply to offend two people, and
are totally unapologetic about this.
That works, too.
and I can type slower if that helps.
Yet another insult.
Durn, thought I slipped it through! (See "you not getting the subtle stuff," above.)
Those issues aside, I was subtly (I'm pointing this out to you as
you seem to have difficulty grasping the subtlety)
One more insult. But don't take my word for it. I assure you, I not
only grasp subtlety, I can even spell it.
I stand in awe. My opinion of you has taken a complete 180.
I suggest, in the interest of your own self development, that you
show what you have written to someone you believe is relatively
impartial, and ask if you have shown any evidence of subtle humor.
I don't know if they are impartial or not, but a bunch of my admittedly immature friends have been reading over my shoulder and ROTFLing.

I guess that means it isn't very subtle.

I do appreciate your interest in my self development.
It's not an awkward position. As I have suggested, if you simply
ask a newtral party for som commentary on the appropriatness of
your conduct, or on your skill as a subtle writer, I am quite sure
that they will agree that you were insulting, and that you were
obviously attempting to be agrevating.
Don't sweat "agrevating." You did really good spelling "subtlety."
Although I do not recall anyone actually asking "what things about
Joseph Wisniewski do you find disappointing". Nor were the
instructions "please make sure your responses are insulting, maybe
throw in something about a childhood beating. After all, there is
nothing in this whole world more subtle and humerous than beating
children".
If you mean that I'm a big, fat jerk, well, no argument here, or anywhere else, most likely.

If you mean that you got the joke, well, maybe you do, and maybe it's just not funny, but there are still all these folks rolling around on the floor. I'll tell them it's really not funny and to knock it off.

There. They stopped.
 
So there are no doubts in your mind, whatsoever, about weather or
not there is hidden meaning here, I do assure you that this is not
an attempt at subtle humor on my part.
To be totally candid, there is very little danger that I would mistake anything in your posts for humor, subtle or otherwise. I mean this sincerely.
I consider your statements concerning the possiblity that my
behavior is the result of a childhood beating to be absolutly
inappropriate, and I expect a sincere apology.
Just for the record, I rewrote this last part several times. I am very sorry for inappropriately speculating on the motives of your behavior.
 
As far as I can see the 300 mm from Oly isn't that much overpriced.
This is what you pay in the Netherlands:

Canon ef 300 mm 2.8L is usm 6348 euro

Nikon af-s 300 mm 2.8ii if-ed 5617 euro

Olympus 300 mm 2.8 $7999 = 7199 euro and that wil be about 6470 euro in the shops.

Not that I was thinking of buying one but renting one will be a good idea if you need one.
The 50-200mm will be perfect for me and has a great price....

Edgar
Actually, when you take the differences in aspect ratio (4:3 vs.
3:2) and the differences in pixel count (5MP vs 6MP) it's much more
easonable to compare 300mm to 300mm. The Canon and Oly end up
exactly even, but you'd need a 330mm to even things out for Nikon.
For those of us whose enlargements are mostly 4/3 shape or squarer,
what probably counts most is either the ratio of frame heights, or
the ratio of pixel sizes if you allow for cropping to a certain
pixel count (but this changes with each new camera).

Frame heights are 13.1mm for the E-1, 15.1mm for Canon 10D, 15.6mm
for Nikon
D100,
giving a comparison of 300mm to 346mm to 357mm.

Pixel pitches are 6.8, 7.5 and 8 microns
giving a comparison of 300mm to 331mm to 353mm.

I imagine that price is somewhat inversely related to sales volume,
so this lens is positioned in a low volume niched a bit like its
35mm format equivalents (500 or 600mm) as far as expected sales,
with the 50-200 zoom already covering a lot of what is
traditionally done with 300mm and even 400mm lenses.
 
Hello Joseph

They are not, I downloaded all four of them, and they come with their EXIF file. Now you will probably argue that EXIF can be manipulated, but I would not assume that Oly would be so stupid as to do that.

I actually posted one of the EXIF information tables here earlier... maybe the link didn't work :-((:



Happy photo hunting
Yvonne
Some more new E1 image from Japan , quality look better than all
the previous image we have seen ... noise free !!!!

http://digitalcamera.impress.co.jp/03_09/tokuho/index.htm

E1 picture - 4th to 8th ...
Can anyone read that Japanese text? Are those images straight out
of the camera? Processed with Oly's tools? Run through "Neat
Image"? PhotoShopped to death?

Right now, the only iamges taken, of the same subject in the same
conditions, are Phils.

--
Ciao!

Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com
--
Yvonne

...whatever does it mean?.... :-O

http://community.webshots.com/user/yvonnesteinmann
 
Hello Joseph

They are not, I downloaded all four of them, and they come with
their EXIF file. Now you will probably argue that EXIF can be
manipulated, but I would not assume that Oly would be so stupid as
to do that.

I actually posted one of the EXIF information tables here
earlier... maybe the link didn't work :-((:
Unfortunatly, it's not that simple. Most editing tools don't touch the EXIF data. (We're lucky that they preserve it, at all). So you can retouch to your heart's content, and the EXIF won't change at all.

I think the only field that PhotoShop changes is the color space. It leaves everything else (including creation and modification dates) alone.

--
Ciao!

Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com
 
Well, Joe, I don't know how you do that.. if I so much as save a picture in photoshop, the EXIF data is gone.

Please explain.
Yvonne
Unfortunatly, it's not that simple. Most editing tools don't touch
the EXIF data. (We're lucky that they preserve it, at all). So you
can retouch to your heart's content, and the EXIF won't change at
all.

I think the only field that PhotoShop changes is the color space.
It leaves everything else (including creation and modification
dates) alone.

--
Ciao!

Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com
--
Yvonne

...whatever does it mean?.... :-O

http://community.webshots.com/user/yvonnesteinmann
 
Photoshop 6 ignored EXIF info......PS 7 deals with it. One major improvement between versions. The version 7 file browser displays Metadata, including full EXIF from cameras.

NO version of Photoshop automatically changes color space unless that's the way you have your Color Management policies set up. You can simply choose to not color manage an image file and the original color space of the file will be left intact.
Please explain.
Yvonne
Unfortunatly, it's not that simple. Most editing tools don't touch
the EXIF data. (We're lucky that they preserve it, at all). So you
can retouch to your heart's content, and the EXIF won't change at
all.

I think the only field that PhotoShop changes is the color space.
It leaves everything else (including creation and modification
dates) alone.

--
Ciao!

Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com
--
Yvonne

...whatever does it mean?.... :-O

http://community.webshots.com/user/yvonnesteinmann
 
Please explain.
Yvonne
Unfortunatly, it's not that simple. Most editing tools don't touch
the EXIF data. (We're lucky that they preserve it, at all). So you
can retouch to your heart's content, and the EXIF won't change at
all.

I think the only field that PhotoShop changes is the color space.
It leaves everything else (including creation and modification
dates) alone.

--
Ciao!

Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com
--
Yvonne

...whatever does it mean?.... :-O

http://community.webshots.com/user/yvonnesteinmann
--
Yvonne

...whatever does it mean?.... :-O

http://community.webshots.com/user/yvonnesteinmann
 
Peter,
not 4th to 8th......
5th to 9th are E1 pictures...
1st to 4th are Fuji S5000 pictures....

:)

Tony
Some more new E1 image from Japan , quality look better than all
the previous image we have seen ... noise free !!!!

http://digitalcamera.impress.co.jp/03_09/tokuho/index.htm

E1 picture - 4th to 8th ...
I looked at the big photo in ACDC: metadata: it is not an Olympus
but a Fuji camera!!! Check it please

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
P.A. Hungary http://web.axelero.hu/paczel
--
:)
 

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