Monitor profiling?

[w4npx]

Stanley, just a thought as to what is happening when you do not have control of the color guns.

I think that Eye One looks at what the color temperature of the setting you have actually is. For instance, it looks at you setting for 5000K and decides that heck no, that is not 5000K, but is actually 6000K. I think and this is only a guess, that it then adds through software, a dark color to the screen to bring it down to 5000K. I know that the computer does not have control over the guns, so it has to be doing with software what you could do in hardware if you had controls. In otherwords you have a monitor that is off kilter, but is being faked to go to 5000K.

I expect that you will get a very good white point setting this way, just not done through hardware and done instead through software, and probably not to the exact degree kelvin, but I would bet pretty close.

These are just guesses and not any scientific findings.

Bob

most appreciated. If you ever have a chance to experiment, please
post your findings, I will be watching for your post. In the mean
time, if I learn anything more, I will post as well.
Best regards
--
Stanley S.

--
Bob

 

[Stanley Sarskas]

Stanley, just a thought as to what is happening when you do not
have control of the color guns.

I think that Eye One looks at what the color temperature of the
setting you have actually is. For instance, it looks at you
setting for 5000K and decides that heck no, that is not 5000K, but
is actually 6000K. I think and this is only a guess, that it then
adds through software, a dark color to the screen to bring it down
to 5000K. I know that the computer does not have control over the
guns, so it has to be doing with software what you could do in
hardware if you had controls. In otherwords you have a monitor
that is off kilter, but is being faked to go to 5000K.

I expect that you will get a very good white point setting this
way, just not done through hardware and done instead through
software, and probably not to the exact degree kelvin, but I would
bet pretty close.

These are just guesses and not any scientific findings.

Bob

for your time.
Bob,

I looked at Gretag Macbeth's US web site and they have a "Contact Us" option. I sent them a message asking the very same thing I asked here. If and when I get a reply, I will post it here. If the reply will be of general interest to everyone, I shall post it as a new thread.
Regards,
--
Stanley S.

 

[Graeme Cogger]

The calibration by Eye-One loads a Look-Up Table (LUT) to the graphics card on startup. This modifies what RGB values are sent to the monitor. For example, if the monitor dispalys the mid tones too dark, the LUT may output a value of 140 to the monitor when it needs to display a value of 128. This compensates for the inaccuracies of the monitor.

If the monitor can adjust the guns individually to set a perfect whitepoint, the LUT will map maximum RGB values of 255 input to output values of 255. If the monitor cannot be adjusted properly, the whitepoint can be compensated via the LUT. To lower the colour temperature, the maximum blue value would be reduced.

For example, with my Sharp LCD monitor, the measured whitepoint is 7100K. I tried a calibration to a 5000K whitepoint, and while the LUT maps Red/Green outputs normally, the Blue output is around 220 out for 255 in.

This gives a correct whitepoint when you look at the screen. Unfortunately it also means that the number of different Blue shades is reduced to 221 instead of 256, giving potentially a slightly increased risk of posterisation. It is therefore preferable, but not essential, to get the white point correct using the monitor controls. Except, perhaps, for an LCD monitor...

With a CRT monitor the RGB gun controls are essentially analogue, so adjusting them first is a good idea. LCD monitors are digital, so adjusting the guns (if possible) is done by applying a Look-Up Table internally to the monitor. This means that if you adjust the monitor to anything other than its native white point and then calibrate using Eye-One, you are applying 2 LUTs to the same data, which can give more 'rounding' errors than applying a single LUT. Therefore, depending on the resolution of the LCD LUT, it may be better to leave it at its native white point and use the calibration software to set it correctly.
HTH,
Graeme

Stanley, just a thought as to what is happening when you do not
have control of the color guns.

I think that Eye One looks at what the color temperature of the
setting you have actually is. For instance, it looks at you
setting for 5000K and decides that heck no, that is not 5000K, but
is actually 6000K. I think and this is only a guess, that it then
adds through software, a dark color to the screen to bring it down
to 5000K. I know that the computer does not have control over the
guns, so it has to be doing with software what you could do in
hardware if you had controls. In otherwords you have a monitor
that is off kilter, but is being faked to go to 5000K.

I expect that you will get a very good white point setting this
way, just not done through hardware and done instead through
software, and probably not to the exact degree kelvin, but I would
bet pretty close.

These are just guesses and not any scientific findings.

Bob

 

[mike55]

Mike Elman wrote:
W4npx,

Again thanks for all your help. I finally have everything correctly profiled. Th solution was to go and check the monitor settings, somehow the settings had changed and once I corrected the monitor the prints looked extremely close to the display. I don't think it is possible to get any better since they are two different mediums, one light and the other ink.

if you are talking about dry mounting the final prints made with a
profile, I would not expect a color shift if the prints are fully
dry before you heat them with the press. However, I would not dry
mount the printed targets.

As far as being darker than the monitor, assuming that the monitor
is correctly profiled, when you do a soft proof in photoshop (and
you always should do a soft proof) you usually find that the soft
proof is lighter and less contrastier than the non soft proofed. I
understand that this is caused by the fact that the profile is
showing you that the print will look slightly lighter when placed
on paper than it does on the monitor. I usually just take about 2
or 3 points off the center of the curve (drag it down) in photoshop
to get the soft proof to look like the monitor did before you soft
proofed it. Also make sure that you are using either Relative
Colormetric or Perceptual Intent on printing, and not Absolute
Colormetric.

Also use Black Point compensation in the Print with Preview Box.

Bob

Mike Elman wrote:
Thanks again for all your help. I'm letting my targey dry until
tomorrow evening. I'm am getting closer to getting correct color on
the 2200. On my last attempt which left a trail on the target the
colors were right, but it was just alittle darker than the monitor.
Does heat affect the color since I have have a drymount press and
want to mount the prints. A drymount press uses about 200 degrees
for about 40 seconds to glue the print to the board. Thanks again
Mike

--
Mike55

 

[Rudy51002]

.

--
Rudy Rodriguez

Bob.
am having trouble calibrating printer.
need advice. are you in chicago. i hope.
Rudy

 

[w4npx]

Graeme: Thank you ever so much for a very scientific explanation of how the eye one through software compensates for the white point when the internal color guns cant make it. I guess I had the right idea in my guess, but just not the exact way it was done.

On a slightly different subject, I am using a Samsung 900NF with gun controls and am calibrated perfectly with the guns at 6500K, but at 5000K (which I dont use anyway), I cannot get the red up quite high enough (I think it was red but it was a while ago that I tried and could have been another color) to get the eye one to match all the arrows.

Would I be correct in assuming that the output of my red gun is just insufficient. Monitor is about three years old, but not used 100 percent of the time.

Bob

Stanley, just a thought as to what is happening when you do not
have control of the color guns.

I think that Eye One looks at what the color temperature of the
setting you have actually is. For instance, it looks at you
setting for 5000K and decides that heck no, that is not 5000K, but
is actually 6000K. I think and this is only a guess, that it then
adds through software, a dark color to the screen to bring it down
to 5000K. I know that the computer does not have control over the
guns, so it has to be doing with software what you could do in
hardware if you had controls. In otherwords you have a monitor
that is off kilter, but is being faked to go to 5000K.

I expect that you will get a very good white point setting this
way, just not done through hardware and done instead through
software, and probably not to the exact degree kelvin, but I would
bet pretty close.

These are just guesses and not any scientific findings.

Bob

--
Bob

 

[Graeme Cogger]

On a slightly different subject, I am using a Samsung 900NF with
gun controls and am calibrated perfectly with the guns at 6500K,
but at 5000K (which I dont use anyway), I cannot get the red up
quite high enough (I think it was red but it was a while ago that I
tried and could have been another color) to get the eye one to
match all the arrows.

Would I be correct in assuming that the output of my red gun is
just insufficient. Monitor is about three years old, but not used
100 percent of the time.

You should find that turning down both the Green and Blue guns will make the Red arrow rise. The white point is about the balance of the 3 guns, rather than their absolute levels.
HTH,
Graeme

 

[yuriy156159]

Here is another thing:

My monitor has RGB control for contrast and brightness so wich one do I have to play with to get me to where I need to be?
thanks again!

Since I have an Epson 1280 and not the 2200, my driver is different
that yours, so I cannot really say, but I suspect that automatic
needs to be turned off.

I do not print mine directly form Eye One Match 2.03a, but rather
print it through photoshop. When I come into photoshop, I direct
it to leave the file untagged. Then I print with Preview and the
source space is untagged, and I leave the printer space, "same as
source"

Then I go in and pick my paper, dpi, microweave on, high speed off
(althought I have some slower dpi's profiles set with high speed
on), No color management and I print.

Hope that helps.

Bob

w4npx: I just got the Eye One Photo and I was was wondering when
you first print the color chart that is supplied, what color
settings do you use. I have an Epson 2200 and I turned color
management off and set it to the paper type I was using and
automatic. Is this right or wrong. Thanks

However, you complained that "colors are not dead spot on prints"
and you are not going to get spot on colors on prints unless you
can also produce or purchase printer profiles for the paper and ink
you are using.

Generic profiles, like the ones you get from Epson with your print
driver are usually close, but never right on the money, and some
are in fact way off the mark. Thus you need to get a printer
profiling system or get one of the various companies to make you
profiles from targets which you print on yoru printer. Purchased
profiles seem to be in the $50-$100 range per profile. I have the
eye one Photo which does a good job on making printer profiles
(monitor too) and I am not sorry I got it. It really works great.

Bob

Do you guys know which monitor profiling is the best for the money
while still having a good quality?
I just bought Spyder Photocal and am not very happy with results I
get.
I have a good monitor Sony 21" E 520 and it is a brand new yet my
colors are not dead spot on prints when I compare them the to the
monitor.
I use new Olympus P-440 which is suposed to be good too.
SO my question is this: Should I return a Spyder and buy something
better or it is my problem with the monitor ( for some reason I can
not get luiminance in between 85 and 95 range I get like 83 the
most no matter how hard I try to play with RGB).
Could you give some good sound advice?
Thanks in advance!
10D, Epson 2200, Olympus p-440

--
Bob

--
Mike55

--
Bob

 

[Stanley Sarskas]

The calibration by Eye-One loads a Look-Up Table (LUT) to the
graphics card on startup. This modifies what RGB values are sent
to the monitor. For example, if the monitor dispalys the mid tones
too dark, the LUT may output a value of 140 to the monitor when it
needs to display a value of 128. This compensates for the
inaccuracies of the monitor.
If the monitor can adjust the guns individually to set a perfect
whitepoint, the LUT will map maximum RGB values of 255 input to
output values of 255. If the monitor cannot be adjusted properly,
the whitepoint can be compensated via the LUT. To lower the colour
temperature, the maximum blue value would be reduced.
For example, with my Sharp LCD monitor, the measured whitepoint is
7100K. I tried a calibration to a 5000K whitepoint, and while the
LUT maps Red/Green outputs normally, the Blue output is around 220
out for 255 in.
This gives a correct whitepoint when you look at the screen.
Unfortunately it also means that the number of different Blue
shades is reduced to 221 instead of 256, giving potentially a
slightly increased risk of posterisation. It is therefore
preferable, but not essential, to get the white point correct using
the monitor controls. Except, perhaps, for an LCD monitor...
With a CRT monitor the RGB gun controls are essentially analogue,
so adjusting them first is a good idea.

Just to be sure that I understand this statement. Will the software adjust the RGB guns or is it something that I have to do? As I mentioned earlier, I only have individual controls for brightness and contrast, also, my white point has two default settings of 5000K and 9300K as well as an adjustable option to set the white point from below 5000K through and above 9300K, however, no individual RGB gun controls.

LCD monitors are digital,

so adjusting the guns (if possible) is done by applying a Look-Up
Table internally to the monitor. This means that if you adjust the
monitor to anything other than its native white point and then
calibrate using Eye-One, you are applying 2 LUTs to the same data,
which can give more 'rounding' errors than applying a single LUT.
Therefore, depending on the resolution of the LCD LUT, it may be
better to leave it at its native white point and use the
calibration software to set it correctly.
HTH,
Graeme

Thank you again for your input, much appreciated.
Regards,
--
Stanley S.

 

[Graeme Cogger]

The calibration by Eye-One loads a Look-Up Table (LUT) to the
graphics card on startup. This modifies what RGB values are sent
to the monitor. For example, if the monitor dispalys the mid tones
too dark, the LUT may output a value of 140 to the monitor when it
needs to display a value of 128. This compensates for the
inaccuracies of the monitor.
If the monitor can adjust the guns individually to set a perfect
whitepoint, the LUT will map maximum RGB values of 255 input to
output values of 255. If the monitor cannot be adjusted properly,
the whitepoint can be compensated via the LUT. To lower the colour
temperature, the maximum blue value would be reduced.
For example, with my Sharp LCD monitor, the measured whitepoint is
7100K. I tried a calibration to a 5000K whitepoint, and while the
LUT maps Red/Green outputs normally, the Blue output is around 220
out for 255 in.
This gives a correct whitepoint when you look at the screen.
Unfortunately it also means that the number of different Blue
shades is reduced to 221 instead of 256, giving potentially a
slightly increased risk of posterisation. It is therefore
preferable, but not essential, to get the white point correct using
the monitor controls. Except, perhaps, for an LCD monitor...
With a CRT monitor the RGB gun controls are essentially analogue,
so adjusting them first is a good idea.

Just to be sure that I understand this statement. Will the software
adjust the RGB guns or is it something that I have to do? As I
mentioned earlier, I only have individual controls for brightness
and contrast, also, my white point has two default settings of
5000K and 9300K as well as an adjustable option to set the white
point from below 5000K through and above 9300K, however, no
individual RGB gun controls.

No - if you don't adjust the guns, the calibration will adjust the output from the graphics card to compensate. As I said, for a CRT it is preferable to adjust the monitor itself.

With the controls on your monitor I would suggest that you choose the 'Color presets' mode during calibration, and adjust the monitor setting until the i1 program shows 6500K (or 5000K or whatever you are calibrating to). In this mode, i1 Match is continuously reading the monitor's colour temperature, although you may need to wait a few seconds each time you make an adjustment.

Thank you again for your input, much appreciated.

You're welcome

 

[Stanley Sarskas]

The calibration by Eye-One loads a Look-Up Table (LUT) to the
graphics card on startup. This modifies what RGB values are sent
to the monitor. For example, if the monitor dispalys the mid tones
too dark, the LUT may output a value of 140 to the monitor when it
needs to display a value of 128. This compensates for the
inaccuracies of the monitor.
If the monitor can adjust the guns individually to set a perfect
whitepoint, the LUT will map maximum RGB values of 255 input to
output values of 255. If the monitor cannot be adjusted properly,
the whitepoint can be compensated via the LUT. To lower the colour
temperature, the maximum blue value would be reduced.
For example, with my Sharp LCD monitor, the measured whitepoint is
7100K. I tried a calibration to a 5000K whitepoint, and while the
LUT maps Red/Green outputs normally, the Blue output is around 220
out for 255 in.
This gives a correct whitepoint when you look at the screen.
Unfortunately it also means that the number of different Blue
shades is reduced to 221 instead of 256, giving potentially a
slightly increased risk of posterisation. It is therefore
preferable, but not essential, to get the white point correct using
the monitor controls. Except, perhaps, for an LCD monitor...
With a CRT monitor the RGB gun controls are essentially analogue,
so adjusting them first is a good idea.

Just to be sure that I understand this statement. Will the software
adjust the RGB guns or is it something that I have to do? As I
mentioned earlier, I only have individual controls for brightness
and contrast, also, my white point has two default settings of
5000K and 9300K as well as an adjustable option to set the white
point from below 5000K through and above 9300K, however, no
individual RGB gun controls.

No - if you don't adjust the guns, the calibration will adjust the
output from the graphics card to compensate. As I said, for a CRT
it is preferable to adjust the monitor itself.
With the controls on your monitor I would suggest that you choose
the 'Color presets' mode during calibration, and adjust the monitor
setting until the i1 program shows 6500K (or 5000K or whatever you
are calibrating to). In this mode, i1 Match is continuously
reading the monitor's colour temperature, although you may need to
wait a few seconds each time you make an adjustment.

Thank you again for your input, much appreciated.

You're welcome

--
Stanley S.

 

[John Blumenfeld]

FYI, I got confirmation yesterday that B&H shipped my Eye-Ond.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?A=ShowProduct&index=Y&kw=MWSF0608&Q=&O=&sku=309785

John

thanks,
kaiyen

However, you complained that "colors are not dead spot on prints"
and you are not going to get spot on colors on prints unless you
can also produce or purchase printer profiles for the paper and ink
you are using.

Generic profiles, like the ones you get from Epson with your print
driver are usually close, but never right on the money, and some
are in fact way off the mark. Thus you need to get a printer
profiling system or get one of the various companies to make you
profiles from targets which you print on yoru printer. Purchased
profiles seem to be in the $50-$100 range per profile. I have the
eye one Photo which does a good job on making printer profiles
(monitor too) and I am not sorry I got it. It really works great.

Bob

Do you guys know which monitor profiling is the best for the money
while still having a good quality?
I just bought Spyder Photocal and am not very happy with results I
get.
I have a good monitor Sony 21" E 520 and it is a brand new yet my
colors are not dead spot on prints when I compare them the to the
monitor.
I use new Olympus P-440 which is suposed to be good too.
SO my question is this: Should I return a Spyder and buy something
better or it is my problem with the monitor ( for some reason I can
not get luiminance in between 85 and 95 range I get like 83 the
most no matter how hard I try to play with RGB).
Could you give some good sound advice?
Thanks in advance!
10D, Epson 2200, Olympus p-440

--
Bob

--
http://www.pbase.com/romosoho (not much there yet)