Moire/Maze Artifacts fixed !

On both issues. There were slight mazes in the original that are
gone in the bibble samples. Not only that but the bibble image has
all the detail and more as it uses less agressive contrast setting.
You can easily get the same look to the bibble image adjusting
contrast/brightness.

Bibble processing is not a tradeoff here, it is win-win.
--------------------------------------------------
One is solid TODAY and the other is coming into focus very fast.

Understand spec trade-offs.
D100 +Bibble ends up being around $300. more. Need to buy today.

No flames please, just serious few words of advice.
TMc
 
On both issues. There were slight mazes in the original that are
gone in the bibble samples. Not only that but the bibble image has
all the detail and more as it uses less agressive contrast setting.
You can easily get the same look to the bibble image adjusting
contrast/brightness.

Bibble processing is not a tradeoff here, it is win-win.
I don't have a calibrated display handy but is this more along the lines of what you were thinking?

Bibbleized
http://www.pbase.com/image/27450044/original



With artifacts
http://www.pbase.com/image/27250816/original



--
Shad
-----------------------------------------------------
Which piano should I buy if I want to play like Mozart?

...Kit in profile...
...pbase supporter...
...Nikonians supporter...
...Charter Member Team Yellow Hands...
 
Your whites are much brighter than the Nikon version. I think you went further on the bibble image than the original Nikon output. I tried to get them as close as possible. After I got it close I kept mixing up which was which unless I looked at the artifacts.

There is no softness in the Bibble output, what people are percieving is the flatter (but containing more information) contrast range.

Nkon default is more like pocket digital pre-processed images. They wow people but the don't have as much shadow detail. The bibble image is the better image to work with IMO.
I don't have a calibrated display handy but is this more along the
lines of what you were thinking?

Bibbleized
http://www.pbase.com/image/27450044/original



With artifacts
http://www.pbase.com/image/27250816/original



--
Shad
-----------------------------------------------------
Which piano should I buy if I want to play like Mozart?

...Kit in profile...
...pbase supporter...
...Nikonians supporter...
...Charter Member Team Yellow Hands...
 
Sounds like it's a fixable bug.
I think so. If not I'll just snag a copy of the New Bibble SW when it's released

--
Shad
-----------------------------------------------------
Which piano should I buy if I want to play like Mozart?

...Kit in profile...
...pbase supporter...
...Nikonians supporter...
...Charter Member Team Yellow Hands...
 
Ok That is the nikon image in the middle. Right is the Bibble image people are say is softer/blurrier...

Left is the Bibble image with contrast adjustment. NO sharpening applied. To my eyes the bibble version has all impact, no blurriness and more highlight detail preserved. Just look at the wood.

I did autocolour, Brightness -11, contrast +11. That is it. Bibble is clearly not blurring the image as some would like to contend.

 
Ok That is the nikon image in the middle. Right is the Bibble image
people are say is softer/blurrier...

Left is the Bibble image with contrast adjustment. NO sharpening
applied. To my eyes the bibble version has all impact, no
blurriness and more highlight detail preserved. Just look at the
wood.

I did autocolour, Brightness -11, contrast +11. That is it. Bibble
is clearly not blurring the image as some would like to contend.
Peter

I like what you did in post. Very nice but...

I don't think it matters in the context of this forum.

I'm begining the think the only point most want to make is to bash the camera and Nikon.

--
Shad
-----------------------------------------------------
Which piano should I buy if I want to play like Mozart?

...Kit in profile...
...pbase supporter...
...Nikonians supporter...
...Charter Member Team Yellow Hands...
 
Some people just will never be happy w/ anything in real life. They only want what they can't have. And then, some just like to be argumentative and run around yanking people's chains.

And then, the rest of us will just make do w/ "terrible" cameras like the D70 and be blissfully ignorant at making and sharing photos and a little chat and some comraderie. :-)

Happy shooting, and see y'all around...

Man
Ok That is the nikon image in the middle. Right is the Bibble image
people are say is softer/blurrier...

Left is the Bibble image with contrast adjustment. NO sharpening
applied. To my eyes the bibble version has all impact, no
blurriness and more highlight detail preserved. Just look at the
wood.

I did autocolour, Brightness -11, contrast +11. That is it. Bibble
is clearly not blurring the image as some would like to contend.
Peter

I like what you did in post. Very nice but...

I don't think it matters in the context of this forum.

I'm begining the think the only point most want to make is to bash
the camera and Nikon.

--
Shad
-----------------------------------------------------
Which piano should I buy if I want to play like Mozart?

...Kit in profile...
...pbase supporter...
...Nikonians supporter...
...Charter Member Team Yellow Hands...
--
Just another amateur learning to paint w/ 'the light of the world.' (John 8:12)
See profile for more + some basic photog resources.
As usual, YMMV + caveat emptor.
Contact me at [email protected]
Indulge my fancies at http://www.pbase.com/mandnwong
 
Differences are always magnified on these types of forums.

There is a real issue with the amount of moire the camera produces. Some want to address it. Some don't like it being addressed. When these two sides meet there is conflict.

I am in the address the issues crowd. If you bury your head in sand issues don't find solutions. Bibble is one of the solutions and we are exploring it.

If we make enough noise, Nikon might even fix it. Maybe they can buy bibble.

Telling people to stop compalining about moire is pointless, as you there will be a certain amount of bacground hum on this until it is addressed in a couple of reviews and it is a well known issue, then it will take no one by surprise. That will end the: "Look what I found posts"
And then, the rest of us will just make do w/ "terrible" cameras
like the D70 and be blissfully ignorant at making and sharing
photos and a little chat and some comraderie. :-)

Happy shooting, and see y'all around...

Man
Ok That is the nikon image in the middle. Right is the Bibble image
people are say is softer/blurrier...

Left is the Bibble image with contrast adjustment. NO sharpening
applied. To my eyes the bibble version has all impact, no
blurriness and more highlight detail preserved. Just look at the
wood.

I did autocolour, Brightness -11, contrast +11. That is it. Bibble
is clearly not blurring the image as some would like to contend.
Peter

I like what you did in post. Very nice but...

I don't think it matters in the context of this forum.

I'm begining the think the only point most want to make is to bash
the camera and Nikon.

--
Shad
-----------------------------------------------------
Which piano should I buy if I want to play like Mozart?

...Kit in profile...
...pbase supporter...
...Nikonians supporter...
...Charter Member Team Yellow Hands...
--
Just another amateur learning to paint w/ 'the light of the world.'
(John 8:12)
See profile for more + some basic photog resources.
As usual, YMMV + caveat emptor.
Contact me at [email protected]
Indulge my fancies at http://www.pbase.com/mandnwong
 
I'm not suggesting that it's not an issue. Just saying that we shouldn't just sit around and do nothing but complain over here. Yes, I too want to see these issues fixed, but I do think some people are over-doing it and always find something negative to say. If I didn't care about it at all, I would not be reading and posting to some of these threads to such lengths -- and sometimes, warning potential buyers about the issues also.

Actually, I'm probably not quite as pessimistic about forum members as Shad. I was exaggerating a bit in my post, but that's sarcasm for ya. :-)

Man
There is a real issue with the amount of moire the camera produces.
Some want to address it. Some don't like it being addressed. When
these two sides meet there is conflict.

I am in the address the issues crowd. If you bury your head in sand
issues don't find solutions. Bibble is one of the solutions and we
are exploring it.

If we make enough noise, Nikon might even fix it. Maybe they can
buy bibble.

Telling people to stop compalining about moire is pointless, as you
there will be a certain amount of bacground hum on this until it is
addressed in a couple of reviews and it is a well known issue, then
it will take no one by surprise. That will end the: "Look what I
found posts"
And then, the rest of us will just make do w/ "terrible" cameras
like the D70 and be blissfully ignorant at making and sharing
photos and a little chat and some comraderie. :-)

Happy shooting, and see y'all around...

Man
Ok That is the nikon image in the middle. Right is the Bibble image
people are say is softer/blurrier...

Left is the Bibble image with contrast adjustment. NO sharpening
applied. To my eyes the bibble version has all impact, no
blurriness and more highlight detail preserved. Just look at the
wood.

I did autocolour, Brightness -11, contrast +11. That is it. Bibble
is clearly not blurring the image as some would like to contend.
Peter

I like what you did in post. Very nice but...

I don't think it matters in the context of this forum.

I'm begining the think the only point most want to make is to bash
the camera and Nikon.

--
Shad
-----------------------------------------------------
Which piano should I buy if I want to play like Mozart?

...Kit in profile...
...pbase supporter...
...Nikonians supporter...
...Charter Member Team Yellow Hands...
--
Just another amateur learning to paint w/ 'the light of the world.'
(John 8:12)
See profile for more + some basic photog resources.
As usual, YMMV + caveat emptor.
Contact me at [email protected]
Indulge my fancies at http://www.pbase.com/mandnwong
--
Just another amateur learning to paint w/ 'the light of the world.' (John 8:12)
See profile for more + some basic photog resources.
As usual, YMMV + caveat emptor.
Contact me at [email protected]
Indulge my fancies at http://www.pbase.com/mandnwong
 
I think it looks quite promising, if these images were just bibble without any additional processing. I see no area where the bibble output falls down. What do you think?
Actually, I'm probably not quite as pessimistic about forum members
as Shad. I was exaggerating a bit in my post, but that's sarcasm
for ya. :-)

Man
There is a real issue with the amount of moire the camera produces.
Some want to address it. Some don't like it being addressed. When
these two sides meet there is conflict.

I am in the address the issues crowd. If you bury your head in sand
issues don't find solutions. Bibble is one of the solutions and we
are exploring it.

If we make enough noise, Nikon might even fix it. Maybe they can
buy bibble.

Telling people to stop compalining about moire is pointless, as you
there will be a certain amount of bacground hum on this until it is
addressed in a couple of reviews and it is a well known issue, then
it will take no one by surprise. That will end the: "Look what I
found posts"
And then, the rest of us will just make do w/ "terrible" cameras
like the D70 and be blissfully ignorant at making and sharing
photos and a little chat and some comraderie. :-)

Happy shooting, and see y'all around...

Man
Ok That is the nikon image in the middle. Right is the Bibble image
people are say is softer/blurrier...

Left is the Bibble image with contrast adjustment. NO sharpening
applied. To my eyes the bibble version has all impact, no
blurriness and more highlight detail preserved. Just look at the
wood.

I did autocolour, Brightness -11, contrast +11. That is it. Bibble
is clearly not blurring the image as some would like to contend.
Peter

I like what you did in post. Very nice but...

I don't think it matters in the context of this forum.

I'm begining the think the only point most want to make is to bash
the camera and Nikon.

--
Shad
-----------------------------------------------------
Which piano should I buy if I want to play like Mozart?

...Kit in profile...
...pbase supporter...
...Nikonians supporter...
...Charter Member Team Yellow Hands...
--
Just another amateur learning to paint w/ 'the light of the world.'
(John 8:12)
See profile for more + some basic photog resources.
As usual, YMMV + caveat emptor.
Contact me at [email protected]
Indulge my fancies at http://www.pbase.com/mandnwong
--
Just another amateur learning to paint w/ 'the light of the world.'
(John 8:12)
See profile for more + some basic photog resources.
As usual, YMMV + caveat emptor.
Contact me at [email protected]
Indulge my fancies at http://www.pbase.com/mandnwong
 
I think it looks quite promising, if these images were just bibble
without any additional processing. I see no area where the bibble
output falls down. What do you think?
And you did a good job of returning contrast into the pic. I would point out one thing though about sharpness. People seem to often confuse sharpness w/ resolution/detail. And I think that's probably what happened here. Sharpness as we normally see it is a matter perception. It doesn't necessarily say too much about resolution. In fact, a picture can look very sharp and actually have less resolution/detail. Indeed, sharpness is closely tied to contrast, and that's probably why your contrast adjustment brought out the sharpness in the Bibble processed pic.

Anyway, again, looks good to me. I do hope that this is a big step in the right direction toward resolving this issue. Maybe I should just go buy a copy of Bibble when it comes out (for the D70) just to support their efforts and help push Nikon, et al along, if nobody else resolves the issue soon enough. Is the latest version of Bibble the same one reviewed at Thom Hogan's site? He gave Bibble a poor rating, but it looked like he reviewed an old version though.

And thanks for the efforts and always keeping a balanced view around here.

Best regards,

Man

--
Just another amateur learning to paint w/ 'the light of the world.' (John 8:12)
See profile for more + some basic photog resources.
As usual, YMMV + caveat emptor.
Contact me at [email protected]
Indulge my fancies at http://www.pbase.com/mandnwong
 
No, Mr. Hogans review was a very much older version of Bibble that at the time was using profiles that prodced too much contrast by default for some folks liking.

The new version features all new Color profiles and tone curves that address this issue as well as support for a host of new cameras including the D70.

And as we've been saying for a while now...It will be available soon.

Eric
I think it looks quite promising, if these images were just bibble
without any additional processing. I see no area where the bibble
output falls down. What do you think?
And you did a good job of returning contrast into the pic. I would
point out one thing though about sharpness. People seem to often
confuse sharpness w/ resolution/detail. And I think that's
probably what happened here. Sharpness as we normally see it is a
matter perception. It doesn't necessarily say too much about
resolution. In fact, a picture can look very sharp and actually
have less resolution/detail. Indeed, sharpness is closely tied
to contrast, and that's probably why your contrast adjustment
brought out the sharpness in the Bibble processed pic.

Anyway, again, looks good to me. I do hope that this is a big step
in the right direction toward resolving this issue. Maybe I should
just go buy a copy of Bibble when it comes out (for the D70) just
to support their efforts and help push Nikon, et al along, if
nobody else resolves the issue soon enough. Is the latest version
of Bibble the same one reviewed at Thom Hogan's site? He gave
Bibble a poor rating, but it looked like he reviewed an old version
though.

And thanks for the efforts and always keeping a balanced view
around here.

Best regards,

Man

--
Just another amateur learning to paint w/ 'the light of the world.'
(John 8:12)
See profile for more + some basic photog resources.
As usual, YMMV + caveat emptor.
Contact me at [email protected]
Indulge my fancies at http://www.pbase.com/mandnwong
 
Thanks for these postings Shadco, and Eric for working on the Bibble RAW converter. Some really pleasant results here!

Bookmarked.

Thomas.
The new version features all new Color profiles and tone curves
that address this issue as well as support for a host of new
cameras including the D70.

And as we've been saying for a while now...It will be available soon.

Eric
I think it looks quite promising, if these images were just bibble
without any additional processing. I see no area where the bibble
output falls down. What do you think?
And you did a good job of returning contrast into the pic. I would
point out one thing though about sharpness. People seem to often
confuse sharpness w/ resolution/detail. And I think that's
probably what happened here. Sharpness as we normally see it is a
matter perception. It doesn't necessarily say too much about
resolution. In fact, a picture can look very sharp and actually
have less resolution/detail. Indeed, sharpness is closely tied
to contrast, and that's probably why your contrast adjustment
brought out the sharpness in the Bibble processed pic.

Anyway, again, looks good to me. I do hope that this is a big step
in the right direction toward resolving this issue. Maybe I should
just go buy a copy of Bibble when it comes out (for the D70) just
to support their efforts and help push Nikon, et al along, if
nobody else resolves the issue soon enough. Is the latest version
of Bibble the same one reviewed at Thom Hogan's site? He gave
Bibble a poor rating, but it looked like he reviewed an old version
though.

And thanks for the efforts and always keeping a balanced view
around here.

Best regards,

Man

--
Just another amateur learning to paint w/ 'the light of the world.'
(John 8:12)
See profile for more + some basic photog resources.
As usual, YMMV + caveat emptor.
Contact me at [email protected]
Indulge my fancies at http://www.pbase.com/mandnwong
 
I pity you guys using P4s ;( If I remember correctly (been out
of it for awhile) the P4 chips had some FP registers taken out
that's why it's not good for these type of processing.
My little P4-2.8 with gig of RDRAM does a fine job on this type of "stuff". Fast and processes it quickly.
--

 
You can buy a Dell after rebate P4-2.6 for $299, why bother
overclocking. They are so fast at this point the little extra is
not worth the hassle.
Thanks. I'm actually aware of the deals. Just wanted to find out more to see if maybe I can pick the right Dell PC that lets me have OC potential down the line. I don't expect to overclock right away, but probably will when the 1-year warranty expires. Also, Nikon Capture is waaaay slow, so that extra bit from OC might help. But yes, I do plan on getting a Dell since I already have my credit card rewards certificate for it. The $300 deal sounds great, but I"m tempted to go for a P4-2.8 w/ HT and 800Mhz FSB instead since I suspect that will help some. OTOH, that seems add substantially (%-age-wise) to the cost.

Man

--
Just another amateur learning to paint w/ 'the light of the world.' (John 8:12)
Motto for the season: 'Cameras are for making photos, not war...'
See profile for more + some basic photog resources.
As usual, YMMV + caveat emptor.
Contact me at [email protected]
Indulge my fancies at http://www.pbase.com/mandnwong
 
artifacting looks much better now! er, fixed, that is. I'm wondering though, why is the color/WB so different on the bibble shot vs. the original?
I posted this earlier in a more subtle format but most seem just to
want to keep on complaining so I've reposted it this way.

It will probably just scroll off the front page since it's not bad
news.

This is based on my mad science test of last week.

Eric Hyman of Bibble got my NEF's and ran them through a development
version of Bibble with good results

Large samples linked here.

Bad
http://www.pbase.com/image/27250816/original
Bibble
http://www.pbase.com/image/27416521/original

Bad
http://www.pbase.com/image/27418720/original
Bibble
http://www.pbase.com/image/27418586/original

Thanks Eric for taking the time to pitch in here.

I will be looking at the new version when it ships.

--
Shad
-----------------------------------------------------
What piano should I buy if I want to play like Mozart?

...Kit in profile...
...pbase supporter...
...Nikonians supporter...
...Charter Member Team Yellow Hands...
 
Eric didn't make any attempt at color processing he just passed it through Bibble.

Here it is with a more normal treatment for color and contrast. It's actually better in contrast than the original


I posted this earlier in a more subtle format but most seem just to
want to keep on complaining so I've reposted it this way.

It will probably just scroll off the front page since it's not bad
news.

This is based on my mad science test of last week.

Eric Hyman of Bibble got my NEF's and ran them through a development
version of Bibble with good results

Large samples linked here.

Bad
http://www.pbase.com/image/27250816/original
Bibble
http://www.pbase.com/image/27416521/original

Bad
http://www.pbase.com/image/27418720/original
Bibble
http://www.pbase.com/image/27418586/original

Thanks Eric for taking the time to pitch in here.

I will be looking at the new version when it ships.

--
Shad
-----------------------------------------------------
What piano should I buy if I want to play like Mozart?

...Kit in profile...
...pbase supporter...
...Nikonians supporter...
...Charter Member Team Yellow Hands...
--
Shad
-----------------------------------------------------
Which piano should I buy if I want to play like Mozart?

...Kit in profile...
...pbase supporter...
...Nikonians supporter...
...Charter Member Team Yellow Hands...
 
... we can burn a thread in a minute, but removing the moiré is a tough job. BTW, you really managed to mess the colors on you "improvements", control it on the histograms ;))
 
If I understand correctly, this is very good news.

If Bibble is a standalone RAW converter, and the images it converts are free from the maze pattern, then it's apparently a problem in the Nikon algorithms, either in-camera or in NC.

Actually I suspected this, because there was a similar problem of Adobe Camera RAW before on Canon RAW files.

Now the future is MUCH brighter for the D70. In May, Phase One will introduce a new, D70-compatible version of C1 DSLR, which is my favourite software from my earlier photoshoots with D100 and Drebel. And eventually Nikon may correct their software as well.

The solution: always shoot in RAW, time will tell you did the right thing.

Greg
 

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