Model refusing to sign release...

[ampimagedotcom]

How do you catch clients uses that are outside the license?

If I happen to see them using my work 'outside the license', then I would know - otherwise I wouldn't know... unless someone told me about it.

Why do you ask?

Perhaps you took photos for a product catalog and the license is for on year in your country. How would you know if they are using the images in other countries?

I would obviously only know if I saw they were using my images in an ad or something like that, that was featured in another country's magazine, for example - otherwise I wouldn't know anything about it.

Having said that, when quoting a price before, I would usually take into account who they are. So if it was a small local company, then I would just say the Territory of use is 'Northern Ireland', for example. Or if they were a bigger (National) company I would say the Territory of use is 'UK & Ireland', for example. Or if they were an International company then I would simply assume and therefore say the Territory of use would be 'Worldwide'... and quote accordingly.

If I have got that part wrong on the quote, most would be quick to let me know beforehand - in which case I'd simply send them a new quote based on that new information, and then take it from there.

After that, it's all about trust.

If you don't trust them, then I'd suggest you walk away - because the last thing you want is to find yourself having to go to court over something that you knew was going to end in tears before you started.

So for me, trust is important and it needs to work both ways for a long term (business or personal) relationship to last.

Do you periodically check to make sure that the client is no longer using the image after the year is up?

Yes.

As far as I'm concerned, 'a client' is only 'a client' if they pay me for something - otherwise you're talking about an ex-client or just someone who is using my work for free.

So either pay me something (£100 for example) to produce some new images or pay me something (£30 for example) to continue using the images that I have already produced... because I would really like to keep you as 'a client', type of thinking.

So yes, I would stay in touch with my clients - and would therefore ask them, 30 days before the 'licence to use' was about to expire, would they like some new images produced or would they rather just continue using the images for another year.

It's what a lot of companies do, who just ask me to pay for the use of 'their thing' - which is why every month I've got bills to pay.

About what percentage of your income is from the original sale, and what percentage is from subsequent relicensing? If you are making an additional 10% from subsequent licensing you could save yourself some paperwork and maintain your current revenue by simply raising your rates for the original shoot by 10%.

Like I said before, Michael, I would just ask my clients to pay me for what they require rather than for something they don’t.

So I would take into account the number of images that they wanted to use, as well as the Media use, the Period of use and the Territory of use when quoting a price.

Which means the fee could vary quite a bit from client to client, as wanting to use 1 or 2 images for '1 year in 2 media in 1 country' would obviously be very different to wanting to use 20+ images for '5+ years in All media throughout the world'... which would be very different to wanting to use a set of images for up to 60 days in one of their magazines, for example.

Plus I find some clients like to spread the cost over the years that they would like to use the images for, as that helps them stay within their yearly marketing budget; whereas others prefer to just pay for 'unlimited years use’ or for all the use that they require at the start and be done.

Plus before they see the actual images, I understand it may be hard for them to know what all they would want to use the images for - because they may not want to use some of them at all, especially if they aren’t that good or fail to say what they want to say to their target market. Or they may want to use them a lot more than they originally thought, especially if they are Wow! or the images really do say what they wanted it to say to their target market…



.. and the then some.

So since my images are not all the same, nor are all my clients usage requirements the same, then doing what you suggest definitely wouldn’t work for me.

Plus to know the answer to your question about 'what percentage is from subsequent relicensing?', one would obviously first need to charge for the additional use of one’s work, otherwise the answer would be 0%.

Added note: to help you work out what the additional fee or percentage could be, I would suggest to take a look at the AOP's Usage Calculator.

Again, there is nothing wrong with your business model. I am simply making the point that it is not the only reasonable business model.

Please note: I've never said the pricing system that I use is "the only reasonable business model".

I'm simply letting you know what I do.

-
Creating images to tell a story... just for you!
Cheers,
Ashley.

 

[545Moose]

Yes that’s solid, I’ve posted up over 100 photos for the group to download, just one is asked for more stating she should have more photos, merely because more were taken. Totally aside from the release, she wants to pick and assumes all raw images should be hers in short…

What did you do in the end?

So, I first sent a professional email to her stating the release purpose and explained it was industry standard; which she should know I'll assume, as an experienced model. I also explained that no other model had any issue with the release from the session except herself. I went on to state that it's her call, and there's no requirement she sign, and I'm happy to remove her pictures posted (in addition to the posted pictures to the group gallery, which I'm sure she's downloaded at this point), which is fine. I also stated that the outfit she arrived in (her own) was not included in the gallery as it's not the designer's work, hence the purpose of the job obviously, and I'd be happy to send her 4-5 edited images of that once I received the release. Win-win, olive branch extended yeah?

I receive her response stating that she wants to see all the RAW images of her and make selections, should have the RAW files, and that's "typically how it works, so I should."

Needless to say, not happening. I've done my part and have been more than accommodating for her, in conjunction for a TFP job, in which I was let in by the promotor, and have received no professional dialogue from the designer since fielding any questions whatsoever, so whether the designer feels her time is too precious or she's above the matter, or dealing with me, etc. I'm done with her too going forward in any TFP scenario, and if I ever work with her again it will be for a paying job for my time and have all these kinks worked out verbatim and up front.

I tried to make good with the model and be reasonable, but just to deal with more is beyond enough, so I'm done with her and the issue. Whether or not I remove things and delete them or leave it as is, I've yet to determine. I have taken more than enough time to deal with her at this point, and for a non-paying job at that. I explained that perhaps in a private session scenario where she would hire me directly as her photographer, every frame would potentially be hers, even then though I would still cull images and show the best shots, but not how this session was setup with the event through the designer. At this point I feel she's beyond ridiculous as does the promoter who I spoke with about the matter, and I'm simply done dealing with her about it.

 

[Michael Fryd]

Yes that’s solid, I’ve posted up over 100 photos for the group to download, just one is asked for more stating she should have more photos, merely because more were taken. Totally aside from the release, she wants to pick and assumes all raw images should be hers in short…

What did you do in the end?

So, I first sent a professional email to her stating the release purpose and explained it was industry standard; which she should know I'll assume, as an experienced model. I also explained that no other model had any issue with the release from the session except herself. …

In many areas, with agency models, the common practice is that the model would not sign a release when “testing”. “Testing” is the industry term for what the Internet calls “TFP”.

Without a release, both the model and photographer would use the images for portfolio use. Technically, without a release and without a copyright license, either party could complain, but industry standard is not to.

 

[Gato Amarillo]

---

In many areas, with agency models, the common practice is that the model would not sign a release when “testing”. “Testing” is the industry term for what the Internet calls “TFP”.

Without a release, both the model and photographer would use the images for portfolio use. Technically, without a release and without a copyright license, either party could complain, but industry standard is not to.

Good thoughts.

However in this case I would never use photos when there arebproblems with the model. Just not worth the risk of creating more problems.

Even on test/TFP I never post photos without some sort of consent from the model.

Gato

 

[ronscuba]

Yes that’s solid, I’ve posted up over 100 photos for the group to download, just one is asked for more stating she should have more photos, merely because more were taken. Totally aside from the release, she wants to pick and assumes all raw images should be hers in short…

What did you do in the end?

So, I first sent a professional email to her stating the release purpose and explained it was industry standard; which she should know I'll assume, as an experienced model. I also explained that no other model had any issue with the release from the session except herself. I went on to state that it's her call, and there's no requirement she sign, and I'm happy to remove her pictures posted (in addition to the posted pictures to the group gallery, which I'm sure she's downloaded at this point), which is fine. I also stated that the outfit she arrived in (her own) was not included in the gallery as it's not the designer's work, hence the purpose of the job obviously, and I'd be happy to send her 4-5 edited images of that once I received the release. Win-win, olive branch extended yeah?

I receive her response stating that she wants to see all the RAW images of her and make selections, should have the RAW files, and that's "typically how it works, so I should."

Needless to say, not happening. I've done my part and have been more than accommodating for her, in conjunction for a TFP job, in which I was let in by the promotor, and have received no professional dialogue from the designer since fielding any questions whatsoever, so whether the designer feels her time is too precious or she's above the matter, or dealing with me, etc. I'm done with her too going forward in any TFP scenario, and if I ever work with her again it will be for a paying job for my time and have all these kinks worked out verbatim and up front.

I tried to make good with the model and be reasonable, but just to deal with more is beyond enough, so I'm done with her and the issue. Whether or not I remove things and delete them or leave it as is, I've yet to determine. I have taken more than enough time to deal with her at this point, and for a non-paying job at that. I explained that perhaps in a private session scenario where she would hire me directly as her photographer, every frame would potentially be hers, even then though I would still cull images and show the best shots, but not how this session was setup with the event through the designer. At this point I feel she's beyond ridiculous as does the promoter who I spoke with about the matter, and I'm simply done dealing with her about it.

You mentioned you uploaded 100 edited photos for group use. That quantity is above and beyond any TFP shoot I have heard of. I would not be too concerned about the model.

More important to me is feedback from the designer on what he/she thought of the quality of the edited photos you sent.

--
https://www.ronchauphoto.com/
https://www.instagram.com/rchau.photo

 

[Teila Day]

Yes that’s solid, I’ve posted up over 100 photos for the group to download, just one is asked for more stating she should have more photos, merely because more were taken. Totally aside from the release, she wants to pick and assumes all raw images should be hers in short…

What did you do in the end?

So, I first sent a professional email to her stating the release purpose and explained it was industry standard; which she should know I'll assume, as an experienced model. I also explained that no other model had any issue with the release from the session except herself. I went on to state that it's her call, and there's no requirement she sign, and I'm happy to remove her pictures posted (in addition to the posted pictures to the group gallery, which I'm sure she's downloaded at this point), which is fine. I also stated that the outfit she arrived in (her own) was not included in the gallery as it's not the designer's work, hence the purpose of the job obviously, and I'd be happy to send her 4-5 edited images of that once I received the release. Win-win, olive branch extended yeah?

I would remove all of her photos.

I receive her response stating that she wants to see all the RAW images of her and make selections, should have the RAW files, and that's "typically how it works, so I should."

She's overly entitled. Remove her photos (don't post photos to the web without written permission), and go on living your life.

Needless to say, not happening.

Naturally.

I've done my part and have been more than accommodating for her, in conjunction for a TFP job, in which I was let in by the promotor, and have received no professional dialogue from the designer since fielding any questions whatsoever, so whether the designer feels her time is too precious or she's above the matter, or dealing with me, etc. I'm done with her too going forward in any TFP scenario, and if I ever work with her again it will be for a paying job for my time and have all these kinks worked out verbatim and up front.

Nothing like a contract (and the model's signature and thumb print) to cut through the fog of "misunderstandings".

I tried to make good with the model and be reasonable, but just to deal with more is beyond enough, so I'm done with her and the issue. Whether or not I remove things and delete them or leave it as is, I've yet to determine.

I wouldn't have used the photos without paperwork.

I have taken more than enough time to deal with her at this point, and for a non-paying job at that. I explained that perhaps in a private session scenario where she would hire me directly as her photographer, every frame would potentially be hers, even then though I would still cull images and show the best shots, but not how this session was setup with the event through the designer.

People thinking that they're entitled to every single shot taken is due in part from too many photographers entertaining such nonsense to begin with.

At this point I feel she's beyond ridiculous as does the promoter who I spoke with about the matter, and I'm simply done dealing with her about it.

You lasted a lot longer than I would've

Thanks for the update.

 

[545Moose]

Thanks to everyone who replied, definitely a learning experience. Oddly I didn't receive any feedback at all from the designer whatsoever. I'm not sure if it was because I wasn't there as a paid participant vs. the other photographer, or their relationship, etc. I do know what while some of my pictures could've been better, the other guy that was the paid "professional" had pictures that were ones I wouldn't post myself, hot spotted and too much light, seemed unedited, and made me feel better about my own standards going forward. That said, I need to figure out a model to price such a shoot in the future, as I have 2 TFP events in the coming weeks and after that, I believe I'll have enough material in my portfolio to actually start making some money!

For headshots, I have a basic model: Session fee - $150 and $75 for a retouched, social media sized file 5MB or so. Additional photos $50-75. As I grow and improve rates will change.

For modeling/show type events, I'm pretty lost.

I don't really have an idea on how to price or bill time for one, maybe hourly for the time of the event, to include a certain number of edited deliverable social media files (quantity unsure on). I'm also all ears for suggestions on a payment system to generate invoices and contracts for such work, I haven't had the need for either yet but need to get that in order, and also open up a business bank account.

 

[545Moose]

And lastly regarding the designer, unless she can get me into shoot or just get in at NYFW, I'm real tempted to just avoid her all together for the foreseeable future unless she initiates some communication or decides to one day respond to the messages I've sent thus far, perhaps they were "lost in the inbox" a bit currently... I'm not expecting either though to be honest. Hopefully the event 7/27, I make new, more professional connections and don't have to ever worry about it going forward and get to deal with more professional people entirely.

 

[Michael Fryd]

Thanks to everyone who replied, definitely a learning experience. Oddly I didn't receive any feedback at all from the designer whatsoever. I'm not sure if it was because I wasn't there as a paid participant vs. the other photographer, or their relationship, etc. I do know what while some of my pictures could've been better, the other guy that was the paid "professional" had pictures that were ones I wouldn't post myself, hot spotted and too much light, seemed unedited, and made me feel better about my own standards going forward. That said, I need to figure out a model to price such a shoot in the future, as I have 2 TFP events in the coming weeks and after that, I believe I'll have enough material in my portfolio to actually start making some money!

For headshots, I have a basic model: Session fee - $150 and $75 for a retouched, social media sized file 5MB or so. Additional photos $50-75. As I grow and improve rates will change.

For modeling/show type events, I'm pretty lost.

I don't really have an idea on how to price or bill time for one, maybe hourly for the time of the event, to include a certain number of edited deliverable social media files (quantity unsure on). I'm also all ears for suggestions on a payment system to generate invoices and contracts for such work, I haven't had the need for either yet but need to get that in order, and also open up a business bank account.

Keep in mind that being a great photographer with a great portfolio is no guarantee that you will have a successful photography business.

The key to a successful photography business is good marketing and good business skills. Being a good photographer is helpful, but not essential. Most customers can't tell the difference between a mediocre photographer and a great photographer. It's up to your marketing to convince them that they should pay you.

Keep in mind that your competition are other photographers who are willing do to TFP, or work for a significant discount in order to build their portfolio. You need to convince a potential client that they should pay you, rather than use the guy who works for free.

Do beware of falling into the trap of working for free/discount in order to get your "foot in the door", or prove your worth to a potential customer. More often than not, the main result is that you build a reputation as the guy who works for next to nothing. If the client reaches the point where he has a budget, he will most likely hire someone who, in his mind, is good enough to command full price, rather than the guy who needs to work at a discount.

In terms of pricing, that's a business and marketing question. What is the going rate in your area? How much do you need to charge in order to make a profit after expenses (including insurance, gear wear and tear, and overhead)? What is your marketing message that you will use in order to convince potential clients they should hire you over the competition (including any existing photographers they have a good relationship with).

.

When someone asks me what the most important skills a professional photographer needs, I tell them marketing and business. With everyone carrying a smartphone, the demand for professional photography has gone down. People's quality needs have also gone down. People see the incremental cost of digital photography as zero, and are therefore unhappy paying a premium for something that they see as costing the photographer nothing.

Furthermore, today's entry level digital cameras are capable of exceeding the quality of high end cameras from just a few years ago. With the cost of gear so low, there is a seemingly endless stream of people working for free, trying to become professional photographers.

I am not saying it can't be done. Just that being a great photographer is no guarantee of success.

 

[ronscuba]

Thanks to everyone who replied, definitely a learning experience. Oddly I didn't receive any feedback at all from the designer whatsoever. I'm not sure if it was because I wasn't there as a paid participant vs. the other photographer, or their relationship, etc. I do know what while some of my pictures could've been better, the other guy that was the paid "professional" had pictures that were ones I wouldn't post myself, hot spotted and too much light, seemed unedited, and made me feel better about my own standards going forward. That said, I need to figure out a model to price such a shoot in the future, as I have 2 TFP events in the coming weeks and after that, I believe I'll have enough material in my portfolio to actually start making some money!

For headshots, I have a basic model: Session fee - $150 and $75 for a retouched, social media sized file 5MB or so. Additional photos $50-75. As I grow and improve rates will change.

For modeling/show type events, I'm pretty lost.

I don't really have an idea on how to price or bill time for one, maybe hourly for the time of the event, to include a certain number of edited deliverable social media files (quantity unsure on). I'm also all ears for suggestions on a payment system to generate invoices and contracts for such work, I haven't had the need for either yet but need to get that in order, and also open up a business bank account.

I think you might find paid work can be specific, niche. Location, supply/demand, retail, commercial, the specific type of photography. Who are the people and companies that pay for photos in your area, what kind of photos, what is the pay amount ?

Individuals who need and pay for headshots vs. a corporation paying for headshots of their staff.

Commercial model agencies vs Aspiring model agencies. Commercial model agencies sign models and get paid on commercial shoots. The agencies take a cut. Aspiring model agencies get paid by the aspiring model in exchange for training, portfolio photos. Commercial agencies sign models that have potential, even if they have zero experience. The aspiring agencies are marketing to the naive and making money off their dreams.

Unpaid TFP test shoots for a model agency can be fun, satisfying and produce photos that are useful in your portfolio. Aspiring agency model shoots can be none of that, but you get paid... a little.

Clothing designers need catalog ecommerce type photos. Fashion editorial type shoots are more fun, creative, but often pay little or nothing unless you are a known established pro.

Sorry for the rambling. I guess the point I am trying to make is, getting paid for the type of photography you like to do is a wonderful thing. But, you might find in your journey, paid work that is not a lot of fun and unpaid work that you love to do.

--
https://www.ronchauphoto.com/
https://www.instagram.com/rchau.photo

 

[Teila Day]

Thanks to everyone who replied, definitely a learning experience. Oddly I didn't receive any feedback at all from the designer whatsoever. I'm not sure if it was because I wasn't there as a paid participant vs. the other photographer, or their relationship, etc. I do know what while some of my pictures could've been better, the other guy that was the paid "professional" had pictures that were ones I wouldn't post myself, hot spotted and too much light, seemed unedited, and made me feel better about my own standards going forward. That said, I need to figure out a model to price such a shoot in the future, as I have 2 TFP events in the coming weeks and after that, I believe I'll have enough material in my portfolio to actually start making some money!

For headshots, I have a basic model: Session fee - $150 and $75 for a retouched, social media sized file 5MB or so. Additional photos $50-75. As I grow and improve rates will change.

For modeling/show type events, I'm pretty lost.

I don't really have an idea on how to price or bill time for one, maybe hourly for the time of the event, to include a certain number of edited deliverable social media files (quantity unsure on). I'm also all ears for suggestions on a payment system to generate invoices and contracts for such work, I haven't had the need for either yet but need to get that in order, and also open up a business bank account.

Keep in mind that being a great photographer with a great portfolio is no guarantee that you will have a successful photography business.

Absolutely none. A great portfolio is the equivalent of having a nice business card today --- you have to offer more than just that.

The key to a successful photography business is good marketing and good business skills. Being a good photographer is helpful, but not essential. Most customers can't tell the difference between a mediocre photographer and a great photographer.

It's not about mediocre, good, or great.. it's about what can you offer the customer that others do not at a price that they find palatable based on what you offer. That's the mean and potatoes of it, especially if your goal is to get paid well.

It's up to your marketing to convince them that they should pay you.

Keep in mind that your competition are other photographers who are willing do to TFP, or work for a significant discount in order to build their portfolio. You need to convince a potential client that they should pay you, rather than use the guy who works for free.

Do beware of falling into the trap of working for free/discount in order to get your "foot in the door"

Correct. I recommend either get paid, or find/create your own niche that pays and sidestep the traditional route of "climbing the ladder". Today you have to be inventive or offer something that others do not or cannot offer... otherwise it'll be a hard road to travel, just to make peanuts.

In terms of pricing, that's a business and marketing question. What is the going rate in your area? How much do you need to charge in order to make a profit after expenses (including insurance, gear wear and tear, and overhead)? What is your marketing message that you will use in order to convince potential clients they should hire you over the competition (including any existing photographers they have a good relationship with).

Correct. Business 101 stuff.

When someone asks me what the most important skills a professional photographer needs, I tell them marketing and business.

Correct.

With everyone carrying a smartphone, the demand for professional photography has gone down. People's quality needs have also gone down.

Demand has gone down. Photographers have wrongly assumed for well over 50 years that people "needed" a certain level of quality, when in fact people wanted exactly what we have today, quick access/results to photography that fits their individual wants and needs. The smart phone covers most of those wants/needs with ease.

People see the incremental cost of digital photography as zero, and are therefore unhappy paying a premium for something that they see as costing the photographer nothing.

Some do, the masses however are more reasonable, they balk at paying for something that doesn't offer a particular convenience, quality, opportunity, level-of-discreet, uniqueness, etc., over their own photography or photographic capabilities.

A lot of people who can cook very well can often be heard balking at paying for less quality at a restaurant, however they do understand the convenience of them not having to cook. Unfortunately with photography, many people have the skill to get the level of photography that they want, the quality that they want, with the convenience of their $1,000 smart phone.

Furthermore, today's entry level digital cameras are capable of exceeding the quality of high end cameras from just a few years ago. With the cost of gear so low, there is a seemingly endless stream of people working for free, trying to become professional photographers.

You can spit and hit someone trying to make money with their photography.

I am not saying it can't be done. Just that being a great photographer is no guarantee of success.

You're well on target Michael with this post.

Most aren't willing to pay good money just to have "great" as the lines between seasoned amateur and great, are blurred. Just think, how many people take photos like Ansel Adams today of Yosemite Nation Park, Jackson hole, Antelope Canyon, etc.. that stuff is a dime-a-dozen today.

People will however pay for photography that will conveniently knock their socks off; photography that they can't readily get elsewhere.

--
Teila K. Day
http://teiladay.com

 

[ampimagedotcom]

I don't really have an idea on how to price or bill...

Start with this...


(Licence to use document)

.. and work backwards from there on the words that you would use when quoting them a fee beforehand - because that's basically what you want them to pay you for afterwards.

-
Creating images to tell a story... just for you!
Cheers,
Ashley.

 

[ampimagedotcom]

Most customers can't tell the difference between a mediocre photographer and a great photographer.

I agree - which means some can actually tell the difference.

So it's therefore up to you to decide which ones would you like to be your clients and which not to waste your time on.

It's up to your marketing to convince them that they should pay you.

Or you simply produce the type of images that they would want to use and then you let them see those images - which is what most freelance photographers, like myself, would regularly do.

-
Creating images to tell a story... just for you!
Cheers,
Ashley.

 

[Ellis Vener]

So I have a little issue; one model out of a dozen refuses to sign a release now for the event I shot a couple weeks ago, which for me was a TFP, unpaid event.

The easiest solution is never to use any photos she is in.

And ask (politely) if that is really how she feels. You are happy to delete all photos that are just of her and, if possible, crop or retouch her out of any group photos.

She believes that the release "takes all her rights to the content"

Ask her where the release says that.

and (that) "she should have the rights to receive all her content. In addition, she believes she should have access to all my RAW files, pick what she likes, and then those should be edited.

If that is what she wants, set a fee.

Perhaps this is how the other photographer chooses to do his workflow, but it's very well possible he was paid and of which terms, I am not privy to at all.

You are right; what the other photographer does is irrelevant.

Typically, I select the best images THAT I FEEL

She may know something about her pose or expression you aren't picking up on. Ideally, this should be a collaboration because the photographer, designer, and models) were expecting to get something out of the session.

Again, this was a TFP shoot where I was invited to build my portfolio and then present the designer with what I've captured for her benefit and mine, nothing directly promised to the models.

Ahh, now the truth surfaces! It sounds like the shoot was primarily for the benefit of the designer. If the designer wants to use those shots, it's up to the designer to get model releases for the photos the designer wants to use.

I'm obviously realizing that I'm 99% certain the designer communicated. none of this to the models at all,

It's probably because the designer is ignorant about the need for releases.

yet it's now my job to choose how to resolve this and instances in the future. Thoughts?

One final thought: Next time, the model needs to sign a model release before they step on set.

 

[545Moose]

Thanks to all that responded, hoards of good info in there. Some I like and some I don't, but that's the reality of it. Aside from headshots maybe, it's not about doing one thing good, but many, and also finding opportunity to do something a little different in between that people want and will pay for. It's definitely good info to think about constantly. After the next 2 events I've obligated myself to, I plan to reassess things based on what comes from them. I also have to want to go back to the drawing board and fill in the gaps of the business plan I'm missing and look at my marketing strategies and message.

One thing I know is I will not become the "free" guy, and if it comes down to being offered to do things for free or none, it takes the fun out of it with no hope in sight. I also have had no time to do the photography stuff that I enjoy doing being so consumed getting started, so I'm sure that will get better in time, but if things don't add up to make it worthwhile and generate revenue for time spent, then it that opens up another can or worms. I'll cross that bridge when I get to it, but plan to get better as a photographer as a whole; regardless of the experiences that get me there!

 

[Michael Fryd]

Thanks to all that responded, hoards of good info in there. Some I like and some I don't, but that's the reality of it. Aside from headshots maybe, it's not about doing one thing good, but many, and also finding opportunity to do something a little different in between that people want and will pay for. It's definitely good info to think about constantly. After the next 2 events I've obligated myself to, I plan to reassess things based on what comes from them. I also have to want to go back to the drawing board and fill in the gaps of the business plan I'm missing and look at my marketing strategies and message.

One thing I know is I will not become the "free" guy, and if it comes down to being offered to do things for free or none, it takes the fun out of it with no hope in sight. I also have had no time to do the photography stuff that I enjoy doing being so consumed getting started, so I'm sure that will get better in time, but if things don't add up to make it worthwhile and generate revenue for time spent, then it that opens up another can or worms. I'll cross that bridge when I get to it, but plan to get better as a photographer as a whole; regardless of the experiences that get me there!

Getting better as a photographer may very well increase your self satisfaction and make you happier. That alone is a good reason to strive to improve your skills.

However, in terms of business, you may already be more than good enough, and spending time on improving your skills may not help your business.

It can be helpful to understand what you are doing to make yourself happy, and what you are doing to increase profitability.

Many would be professional photographers start by spending money on very expensive gear. They are under the impression that expensive gear is key to being a professional photographer. The truth is that you need gear good enough for the jobs you take. Buying better gear than you need may make photography more fun, but it reduces your profitability.

 

[Ellis Vener]

1) You are just getting started ( the first three to five years of your business) and really need to produce examples of high-quality, real-world work for your portfolio and marketing to help establish that you are "for real" and reliable. You are actively establishing your reputation and getting known. This is the young and hungry stage.

2) You already have established ad agency or graphic design clients working on a non-profit project, and they ask if you'd like to help. The agency or client already knows you and that you will produce the level of work that will help them get noticed when they submit work for awards like Addys and Clios, etc.

3). You are doing work that you plan on submitting for awards and to use in your promotional materials

4) You really believe in a cause and want to do whatever you can to support it. In the USA, be aware that there are tax implications when you donate work to a non-profit. The last time I checked with an accountant, the rule was that you can deduct the cost of materials but not the value of your time.

My experience as a professional photographer is that outside of that, doing things for free leads to doing more work for free. People don't value what they don't have to pay for; that's human nature at work.

Be wary of people who are not already hiring you and who approach you with, "If you do this job for free (or for a greatly discounted fee, I'll make up for it next time." There never is a next time. When someone tries that line on you, the right approach is to just say no or suggest something along the lines of "Why don't we get our professional relationship established first?"

Don't just do things to do things; be strategic in your thinking. Ask yourself questions like, "If I do this, will it open a door to this?"
Approach each project like a professional: be prepared, dot your i's, and cross your t's. Use contracts. Even if you do things for free or donate your services, you want to use a contract that spells out both your and their obligations.

Also be aware that there are other people who like to get your work for free through your initial client. Sometimes that can lead to other work but most times its someone trying to score a freebie.


If you are in the USA, get i nthe practice of registering your copyrights. It doesn't cost much, and while not strictly necessary, it does give you some legal leverage if and when it comes down to that. https://www.copyright.gov/registration/photographs/


Join a professional photographer's organization: PPA, ASMP, or APA. It's always good to have peers, and all three have resources and experience to help you establish and grow your business. foorums like dpreview, fredmiranda, photo(dot)net, and information sites like petapixel, etc , are no substitute for these organizations.

Always get the models to sign releases before clicking the shutter.

Be kind.

And never forget this is a service industry.

 

[Michael Fryd]

1) You are just getting started ( the first three to five years of your business) and really need to produce examples of high-quality, real-world work for your portfolio and marketing to help establish that you are "for real" and reliable. You are actively establishing your reputation and getting known. This is the young and hungry stage.

2) You already have established ad agency or graphic design clients working on a non-profit project, and they ask if you'd like to help. The agency or client already knows you and that you will produce the level of work that will help them get noticed when they submit work for awards like Addys and Clios, etc.

3). You are doing work that you plan on submitting for awards and to use in your promotional materials

4) You really believe in a cause and want to do whatever you can to support it. In the USA, be aware that there are tax implications when you donate work to a non-profit. The last time I checked with an accountant, the rule was that you can deduct the cost of materials but not the value of your time.

My experience as a professional photographer is that outside of that, doing things for free leads to doing more work for free. People don't value what they don't have to pay for; that's human nature at work.

Be wary of people who are not already hiring you and who approach you with, "If you do this job for free (or for a greatly discounted fee, I'll make up for it next time." There never is a next time. When someone tries that line on you, the right approach is to just say no or suggest something along the lines of "Why don't we get our professional relationship established first?"

Don't just do things to do things; be strategic in your thinking. Ask yourself questions like, "If I do this, will it open a door to this?"
Approach each project like a professional: be prepared, dot your i's, and cross your t's. Use contracts. Even if you do things for free or donate your services, you want to use a contract that spells out both your and their obligations.

Also be aware that there are other people who like to get your work for free through your initial client. Sometimes that can lead to other work but most times its someone trying to score a freebie.

If you are in the USA, get i nthe practice of registering your copyrights. It doesn't cost much, and while not strictly necessary, it does give you some legal leverage if and when it comes down to that. https://www.copyright.gov/registration/photographs/

Join a professional photographer's organization: PPA, ASMP, or APA. It's always good to have peers, and all three have resources and experience to help you establish and grow your business. foorums like dpreview, fredmiranda, photo(dot)net, and information sites like petapixel, etc , are no substitute for these organizations.

Always get the models to sign releases before clicking the shutter.

Be kind.

And never forget this is a service industry.

A lot is going to depend on what market segment you are going after. Part of that is going to depend on where you live. You may not live in an area with high end clients. You may be targeting consumers vs. businesses.

At many market levels the client will prefer to hire a good photographer that they like and is easy to work with, over a great photographer who they don't like and is a pain to work with. This is particular true with smaller clients.

Be likable and be easy to work with. Don't be a pain to your clients. Be the guy who solves their problems, rather than the guy who makes more problems for them.

I agree that joining a professional organization (like the PPA) can be very helpful. These organizations can provide you with standard forms that you should use for your business. They can provide educational materials on business and marketing. They usually come with discounts on gear and services.

 

[Ellis Vener]

A lot is going to depend on what market segment you are going after. Part of that is going to depend on where you live. You may not live in an area with high end clients. You may be targeting consumers vs. businesses.

In every market in every area, there is always market stratification.
Instead of focusing on "high end" vs other clients, I think it is more important to establish relationships with high-quality clients. A high quality client is one who you like doing business with and who in turn likes doing business with you, and who pays their invoices on time. In other words, it's all about trust.

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Ellis Vener
To see my work, please visit http://www.ellisvener.com
I am on Instagram @EllisVenerStudio
“It's not about the f-stop." -Jay Maisel
Don't be "a photographer.” Be photographing. (Paraphrasing William Faulkner's advice to writers.)