LX-users: upgrade to GF2?

the GF2 is a slightly smaller and more consumer-oriented version of the GF1, with a few new features, but mostly a different form. Same sensor though, from what I understand.
Ray, what I am reading is that the GF2 sensor appears to be the same as in the G2. That would make this tiny form-factor extremely interesting :) :)

http://panasonic.net/avc/lumix/systemcamera/gms/gf2/specifications.html
http://panasonic.net/avc/lumix/systemcamera/gms/g2/specifications.html
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I think you're right, but I don't think the G2 sensor is regarded as particularly different or better than the GF1 or G1 sensor. Maybe better for video or something? Not sure - the G1 didn't even do video. But I think the key point is that the G series sensors are all pretty similar until you get to the GH1 and now, with a fairly large leap forward, the GH2.

I don't tend to get hung up on this stuff - I'm overwhelmingly happy with my EP2 and LX5 (and S90). But the question was regarding the differences between the GH2 and GF2 and I think those sensors are quite different, not to mention the AF performance...

-Ray
 
I had already responded to your previous post before reading this one. I wonder if using the step zoom feature rather than having an infinite number of zoom points would make a difference here. With the step zoom and discrete f-stops, there's a finite number of calculations needed to determine the hyperfocal distance. With an infinite range of focal lengths, it may just make it slightly slower for the camera to calculate the DOF range on the fly???? I doubt this would be a real issue, but you'd mentioned something about the rounding on the focal length indicator, so it made me wonder about it.

-Ray
 
I'm a new LX5 owner, and I definitely considered the current crop of mirrorless cameras instead, and also knew that the GF2 was coming soon.

What all of the mirrorless cameras lack is a fully collapsible zoom lens, especially one with the speed and quality of the lens on the LX5. I see no point in having a general, carry-anywhere, shoot-anything camera if you're stuck with a single focal length.

The LX5 is good enough for what I need, and if I want higher quality photos, the DSLR rig is there to really take care of business.

--
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JurassicPizza (TM)

 
Ray Sachs wrote:

... I did a LOT of street shooting the weekend before last in New York City using this mode and had a VERY high rate of in-focus shots. And those that weren't seemed to be in somewhat lower light situations when the shutter speed fell to speeds where motion and shake induced blur came into play.
That's what got my thinking, as it appeared that your technique had yielded some successful results - so I thought a lot tonight about how Panasonic may be generating the "Focal Range" display.

Additionally, I figured if there is a way to use the indicator in some way relevant to producing good results - I should try to figure it out. (At least), the algebraic formulas that I carefully derived for the HyperFocal-Distance can (with the LX5's Step-Zoom) be used to divide the set Focal-Length by the (24mm equivalent) when the Zoom Factor = 1.0, square that value, and multiply it by the numerical constants (1.0 in the case of Metric units) to estimate the HyperFocal-Distance with some certainty.
There is a focus range noted in AF mode that shows up at the bottom of the screen when you're zooming in or out, but this seems to be totally useless, because as you zoom, the numbers show up but don't seem to change at all with focal length, so I'm not sure what that's even for.
That indicates the minimum Focus-Distance that the AF is expected to focus at.
But the focal range "bar" that shows up at the bottom of the screen in MF mode when you're adjusting focus does move and adjust as you would expect it to as you change the focal length and the aperture. Maybe its not quite as accurate as it could be, but it seems to reflect an appropriate relationship between aperture, focal length, and the range of distances that would be in-focus.
In playing some more with my LX3, I do see the width of the (yellow-colored) area decreasing with increasing Zoom Factor. While that (Zoom Factor dependent) width remains fairly constant as focus is adjusted, the scale itself is geometric. So, I think that it is a nice attempt to (at least) approximate what may be expected for the "bear" and "far" limits of an in-focus "range".

I think that validity of the width itself of the (yellow-colored) area (because that is what relates to the "Depth of Field") cannot be taken very seriously where it comes to absolute accuracy of the DOF [as the DOF is by definition scaled by the size (in pixels, or in line-pairs) of the displayed/printed image itself].

However, it seems that the camera is capable of knowing it's approximate HyperFocal-Distance as well as it's approximate focusing-distance. Thus, the most useful thing that the "Focus Range" display indicator could get right would be to (just) touch the "top" of the scale (at the "Infinity" symbol) when the estimated distance of the Plane of Focus equals the HyperFocal-Distance).

Your good results when using this technique are interesting and promising. I like the concept! I love the whole idea of the indicator in general, and am hopeful that it (though seemingly not much of a "DOF" indicator) may still provide the valuable function that you describe (of informing the user that the camera is focused at/near the HyperFocal-Distance) ... :)
I haven't compared the numbers it provides with an actual hyperfocal calculator or table to know how accurate it is (assuming, perhaps wrongly, that I didn't need to!),
With a hand-held calculator, and using the (LX5's only) Step-Zoom, you could determine the HyperFocal Distance with accuracy using the algebraic formulas previously posted. This is something that could be done in the filed when shooting (as opposed to havng to be on a computer, or making laborious tables, etc.).
... but it seemed to work very well in the field. So I'm probably gonna keep using it unless this post has created a psychosomatic feedback loop that will keep me from getting good results now that I've read it!
If it's real, it should be "un-jinx-able" ... ;) And my use of mathematics is not intended to doubt your reports, but is used in order to try and understand the basis of your evident success ... :)
Ray Sachs wrote:

... I wonder if using the step zoom feature rather than having an infinite number of zoom points would make a difference here.
It makes a positive difference for the user being able to calculate the Zoom Factor rather precisely (even though the Zoom Factor is rounded to integers in the display that the user see). However, the camera itself is certainly capable of tracking the Zoom Factor and estimating the Focus Distance numerically with more precision than the user is able to see.
... With the step zoom and discrete f-stops, there's a finite number of calculations needed to determine the hyperfocal distance. With an infinite range of focal lengths, it may just make it slightly slower for the camera to calculate the DOF range on the fly???? I doubt this would be a real issue, but you'd mentioned something about the rounding on the focal length indicator, so it made me wonder about it.
The internal number-crunching does not seem like an arithmetic or computing speed problem. Such internal data (if generated and utilized) is likely not quantized to very many digits.
 
Thanks for all of the thought you've put into this. I think that if getting the right end of the yellow focal range "bar" right at the infinity point is indeed getting the focus point at or very close to the hyperfocal point, that's good enough for me. Particularly given the massive depth of field these small sensor cameras are capable of at relatively wide angles anyway. To the extent the calculation isn't quite dead-on exact, the camera is probably forgiving enough for it not to matter.

In any case, in the mere two weeks I've been shooting with this camera, I'm finding the small size, the very quick shutter response, and the huge DOF (combined with this at least approximate hyperfocal tool) make this about the best street shooting camera I've yet used in anything resembling decent light. In low light, I think I might still take my ep2 with the 20mm f1.7 lens, but I may have to do some side by side comparisons some evening to even be sure of that.

-Ray
 
What always cooled me on my GF1 and the EP1 I tried is the noise of the shutter. With the LX3-5 or Dlux4 the shutter is silent, making it a much better camera for street use. The sound of the GF1 is noticeable even at a busy intersection....must be the high pitched clack of the shutter, but I'd get looks from across a street.

I'm kind of disappointed in the execution of the GF2. I had hoped for a camera that was more along the lines of a standard user interface, like the Leica X1.
--
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GF2 will never replace LX5 as they have different philosophy.

LX5 is for advanced amatuer users, while GF2 is for newbies.

GF2 has no central shutter (that can be used for flash photography. I'm gonna use it when I buy my LX5 next month).

GF has no 24-90 lens in such size and 2.0 wide open. You'll need a bunch of fixes, and swap them very often. GF2 even does not have mode dial.

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Probably not, the lx-5 does what I want it to do. I still have a full size dslr (K20), for when the lx-5's not the right answer for my photographic needs. The gf2 looks nice, I considered the GF1 before I bought the LX-5, but the price difference and larger size of the GF1 were negatives that I didn't need.

Since I use the lx-5 in daylight, or as a snapshot-with-flash camera, I'm fine not going past ISO 800, which for what I use it for (4x6" prints or web prints), is pretty decent on the lx-5. If I really need better than that, even a GF1/2 can't compare to a really fast lens on my pentax.

That being said...it is tempting. Not sure if I like the control reduction, especially the mode dial which I use a lot on my lx-5 to switch from AV to Program.

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K20D & Lots of lenses...

http://www.samtownsend.com
 
I'd keep the LX5 for exactly what I bought it for: a versatile serious camera which fits in my coat/pant pocket.

The GF2 body though small in size, still doesn't change the fact that it's lenses are still huge ... and no, constrained to a single fixed zoom pancake lens will not do for me.

When you go up in size larger than the LX5, I'd might as well go entry level DSLR.

I still can't figure out the main advantage of the u4/3 cameras coz weight and size wise, compared with entry level DSLR, it's all the same, both require a neck strap and a pouch or small shoulder bag for lenses.

Cost wise .. it's not any cheaper either! A new Canon Rebel T2i with a 18-55mm IS lens can be had for $750. Same story for lenses.
OTOH the APS-C sensors win hands down for IQ and shallow DOF.
 
Stephen, you have made some very good points regarding the IS. Together with the loss of range, the control dial, the AF/AE-lock button, macro and the insufficient pocketability, I too have decided against the GF2 in the meantime.

The LX5 is not a sufficient improvement over my LX3 though, I guess I will have to wait for the LX6, Samsung's TL 600, Olympus's rumored 26–100 mm f/1.8-2.4 compact or the rumored Nikon 2.5-crop Evil camera.
 
-But having used such cams they hold more drawbacks than advantages for me. I lose pocketability and it opens up a world of extra expense for me. Sooner or later I would add a macro lens and a tele lens just because I can. With the LX5 you have to make do with what you have. Even after slimming down the GF2....you have lost shirt/pants pocketability which I can get (just about) with the LX5 and which is important to me in enticing me to take it everywhere.-

Many thanks for this very eloquent statement.

I have an E3 and a range of lenses, have been looking for an up market P&S, considered the XA, the G12 ( i have all the accessories from a previous G2), but your simple statement about making do with all the LX5 has to offer convinced me that i'll be dropping in to B&H next week when we are in NY and handling them all, but buying the LX5.

Thanks for a great forum, its refreshing to see people posting such excellent photos
from a P&S

i'll join you guys very soon with images of my own

Andrew

UK Olympus Safari Group Member
UK Photo Safari Group Events : http://www.ukphotosafari.org
 
I pondered for long and hard on what the advantages of micro 4/3 are.

The only advantage I could think of was that you can get a real small ultra wide angle lens, such as the 7-14 or the Oly 9-18.

M43 is not any smaller than a small DSLR like the Pentx KR, Sony A33, Nikon D3100, and such. Yes, specification wise they are smaller by a few millimeters here and there and a few grams lighter, but you still need a camera bag and a neck/shoulder strap just like a regular DSLR. You still can't put it in your pocket like a compact PnS, AND, they are not any cheaper.. in fact, M43 lenses are very expensive. And you sacrifice DOF and high ISO capability when it is not any more portable than a small DSLR.

BUT, that Oly 9-18 is very small compared to DX and FX counterparts. Buying a M43 for such reasons make some sense, but I really don't see any other benefits.

Oh yeah, and before Micro 43 came out, when all there was regular 43 from Olympus, with those humongous bodies and lenses, it made even less sense.
I'd keep the LX5 for exactly what I bought it for: a versatile serious camera which fits in my coat/pant pocket.

The GF2 body though small in size, still doesn't change the fact that it's lenses are still huge ... and no, constrained to a single fixed zoom pancake lens will not do for me.

When you go up in size larger than the LX5, I'd might as well go entry level DSLR.

I still can't figure out the main advantage of the u4/3 cameras coz weight and size wise, compared with entry level DSLR, it's all the same, both require a neck strap and a pouch or small shoulder bag for lenses.

Cost wise .. it's not any cheaper either! A new Canon Rebel T2i with a 18-55mm IS lens can be had for $750. Same story for lenses.
OTOH the APS-C sensors win hands down for IQ and shallow DOF.
 
I see the LXn's and µ4/3 as different formats for different objectives. The LX5 as the nearly pocketable all-round option w/o filters or (for the most part) support, and both casual and more serious or purposed chores.

I believe if I had it to do over right now, I'd still opt for the EP2 over the GF2 or GF1, as far as that format goes. And I'd still want an LX5, if not out of budget. If made to choose between 'em, µ4/3 wins out.

But that's just one possible perspective.

--
...Bob, NYC

'Well, sometimes the magic works. . . Sometimes, it doesn't.' - Little Big Man

http://www.bobtullis.com
 
Credit to Ray for highlighting this feature in the Serious Compacts Forum ;it was that that drew my attention to the inbuilt DoF guide.
 
Detail Man wrote:

In playing some more with my LX3, I do see the width of the (yellow-colored) area decreasing with increasing Zoom Factor. While that (Zoom Factor dependent) width remains fairly constant as focus is adjusted, the scale itself is geometric. So, I think that it is a nice attempt to (at least) approximate what may be expected for the "bear" and "far" limits of an in-focus "range".
I think that validity of the width itself of the (yellow-colored) area (because that is what relates to the "Depth of Field") cannot be taken very seriously where it comes to absolute accuracy of the DOF [as the DOF is by definition scaled by the size (in pixels, or in line-pairs) of the displayed/printed image itself].
Contrary to what the phrase "Focus Range" seems to imply, and contrary to my own (and others') previous conceptions that the scale of the indicator was in units of Depth of Field (DOF) , I find that the units are (instead) those of a (camera-estimated) distance from the camera of the plane of focus . This is quite different from units of DOF (though both quantities are expressed in the common units of distance).

The height of the yellow-colored moving indicator itself/ (or "thickness" in a vertical orientation) is an attempt by the camera to provide an estimate of the DOF ...

However, the scales:

(1) geometric nature itself; and

(2) the limited number of numerical gradations on the scale;

(3) the obvious fact that the DOF is a function of the (obviously unknown to the camera ) vertical size (in pixels, in pixel-pairs, or in line-pairs) of the viewed display/monitor screen or print ...

render the "Focus Range" indication of DOF to (in a practical sense, and no matter how accurately Panasonic may be internally calculating using knowable estimates of focal-length and focus-distance in generating the yellow-colored section of the indicator) be an unacceptably rough, hard to read/interpret, and clearly erroneous for all but a single (arbitrary, and undisclosed) display/print-size
 
Detail Man wrote:

HFD = (P) / (F) / (4695) x (Z)^2

where HFD is the HyperFocal-Distance [in Meters]; and
P is the vertical height of the image (in Pixels, or in Line-Pairs); and
F is the F-Number; and
Z is the Zoom Factor.
should correctly read :

HFD = (P) / (F) / (213) x (Z)^2

where HFD is the HyperFocal-Distance [in Meters]; and
P is the vertical height of the image (in Pixels, or in Line-Pairs); and
F is the F-Number; and
Z is the Zoom Factor.
 
Thanks for a great forum, its refreshing to see people posting such excellent photos
from a P&S

i'll join you guys very soon with images of my own
I recently arrived here from the same place as you, E-3+lenses, wanted a top class compact. I went for the the LX5, it's great and this is a great forum too.

It can be fiesty, but the images people post are inspiring, all the more so because they're coming from cameras made by a company some dismiss as a gadget maker!

--
Michael.
 
I wish someone would create a lens that could be extremely compact but was also a telephoto lens.

I mean it's possible right?
 

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