Live Preview in DSLR's

[rsn48]

In another thread, some one suggested that "live preview" will become dominant in the wish list of DSLR's purchasers, but I wonder. I must admit I'm biased as I "grew up" around SLR view finders. I find when I use a D/SLR camera there is something satisfying about looking through the view finder. I feel "at one" (okay don't roll your eyes now) with what is happening in front of the camera and what's going on in my brain.

When I'm stopped by the hoards of tourists that come here to Vancouver BC and want me to shoot their picture, I find a lack of harmony between me, the camera and the scene photographed. I find I look from the live preview to the scene and back; this bothers me. I experience a disconnect in the photographic experience by having to move my eyes from camera to scene and back to camera.

I can understand newbies who have come from a point and shoot background wanting live preview, but do many of you experienced D/SLR photographers really want "live preview?"
--
The answers are always inside the problem, not outside. Marshall McLuhan

 

[Taurus212]

I can't call myself an experienced dSLR user yet, but there are a few areas where I miss live view:

Macro when I'm laying on the ground, and chasing birds in flight.

I learned to hold the cam a little off center from my vision and flick my eyes from the LCD to the subject... I guess its something like triangulation maybe but whatever, it made tracking them easier.

Also when I'm working with snakes and the like, keeping my face as far away as possible is nice.

Oh and yeah, when I'm laying in a stream waiting for a turtle to pop up for air

Like all things live view has its uses, but its not a requirement, I'll adapt.

 

[Diopter]

Fortunately for myself, I entered the digital cameras through models with articulated LCD's. Even small and dim ones, they open for a photographer completely new world.

Sticking the eye to the box will quickly become as funny, as covering the head with a cloth.

There is some legal fuss around fully functional articulated LCD screen. We can observe hypocrisy of many review sources, which are more willing to point absence of an optical viewfinder in a new camera model, than the absence of an articulated LCD.

Olympus cameras with a new generation of live preview MOS are on their way to the stores. Sadly, with the screens permanently welded to the bodies.
Sony's promising CMOS from R-1 is back in the box....

 

[chuxter]

In another thread, some one suggested that "live preview" will
become dominant in the wish list of DSLR's purchasers, but I
wonder. I must admit I'm biased as I "grew up" around SLR view
finders. I find when I use a D/SLR camera there is something
satisfying about looking through the view finder. I feel "at one"
(okay don't roll your eyes now) with what is happening in front of
the camera and what's going on in my brain.

Interesting observation. My guess is that in 10 years most dSLRs will have an EVF. I look forward to an electronic SLR...an eSLR. No noisy/shakey mirror, no big/heavy pentaprism, no delicate/noisy shutter

At the moment, I think most dSLRs with "live preview" only preview through the LCD, not the VF. That's no good...

There is no reason that an EVF can't give you the same "feelings" that you get with optics. But to do that at the moment is not technically possible in an affordable camera.

When I'm stopped by the hoards of tourists that come here to
Vancouver BC and want me to shoot their picture, I find a lack of
harmony between me, the camera and the scene photographed. I find
I look from the live preview to the scene and back; this bothers
me. I experience a disconnect in the photographic experience by
having to move my eyes from camera to scene and back to camera.

Perhaps the root cause is a poor EVF? Can you give us a clue what camera you had bad carma using?

I can understand newbies who have come from a point and shoot
background wanting live preview, but do many of you experienced
D/SLR photographers really want "live preview?"

Yes! I was a SLR photographer for 20 years before I got my first DC (which wasn't very good). But my 2nd was better and the 3rd is quite good...but still not perfect. I am looking forward to an even better 4th DC...I hope it's an eSLR!

I don't look at the scene through a VF to appreciate it. I look through a VF to compose the pic. I don't "need" very high resolution, but agree that it would be nice, if the cost was not too dear. What I really "need" is:

1. Live histogram
2. Live indication of blown out parts of the pic
3. Enough resolution to judge if the camera is focused on the correct part
4. Enough IQ to judge what the pic will look like
5. Automatic digital zoom when manually focusing (at least 10X)
6. Gain, to allow composing in the dark
7. Enough speed to follow moving objects w/o lag

No camera does this...yet. In fact, testers like Phil apparently don't know that anyone is interested in things like the frame rate of EVFs! Or the minimum EV to achieve full EVF/LCD brightness. If he would test these kinda things, it would signal to the designers that they need to give some attention to them and thus expedite their appearance.

--
Charlie Davis
Nikon 5700 & Sony R1
CATS #25
PAS Scribe @ http://www.here-ugo.com/PAS_List.htm
HomePage: http://www.1derful.info
'I brake for pixels...'

 

[rsn48]

I think we've taken different paths in our love of photography. Yours sounds like more of a point and shoot background. For example, when you talk about lag time, that sounds more like a PS problem.

I hang out with some friends who are avid air show photographers using digital and I can assure you they don't have lag time issues with their cameras; in fact it was the lack of lag time that interested them in their specific purchases. Both have had a number of their photos published. Standing beside them when they shoot sounds like duelling digital cameras; they both shoot in burst mode so over the roar of the aircraft I hear the staccato sounds of cameras firing.

These guys usually dig up envied photo passes to the show; I convinced them to tell the security types that I am their "grip" man - don't laugh security buys it. Then I stand beside them holding their bags while they shoot away, caught in photographic bliss.

As far as tourists shots go, its their camera I hold. The Japanese fascinate me. They will all stop in front of, lets say, a fountain and a couple will stand in one spot and have their photo taken by me. Then as a mob others come up to me and stand in the very same spot for their photo; these are folks on those organized tours. I imagine they all get home and show each other the identical photos of their trip, the only difference in the photos is the couple standing in front of whatever. But you know if they're having fun, so what. So my PS experience is how would you call it, eclectic...lol!

Yes, I'll vote for a live histogram: I must confess I never thought of it but how smart.

You mentioned Phil doesn't test for live preview, my guess is Phil is more like me and a VF kind of guy.

Can live preview give me the same feel as a view finder; I think my answer is really different strokes for different folks. The image of a view finder feels like its almost part of my eye in my brain, the image of an electronic screen feels like I'm distant from the image and I have less control over the image, especially when quickly cropping with the zoom. The image is also brighter. The view finder isolates me from my surroundings so that I am concentrating on the photo, live preview seems part of the surrounding and I'm very aware of what is going on around me in a distracting kind of way.
--
The answers are always inside the problem, not outside. Marshall McLuhan

 

[Ominous]

Only way is with your right eye on the view finder, and left eye looking at the bird.

Can't see how an EVF would help at all.
--
http://www.pbase.com/ewhalen

 

[Ominous]

Sticking the eye to the box will quickly become as funny, as
covering the head with a cloth.

Yea right. It is the best way to hold your camera, and brace it from motion.

--
http://www.pbase.com/ewhalen

 

[CharlieDIY]

Only way is with your right eye on the view finder, and left eye
looking at the bird.

Can't see how an EVF would help at all.

Me either, nor do I see why he is using macro to shoot birds in flight.

--
Charlie Self
http://www.charlieselfonline.com

 

[superakuma]

When he said using it for macro, I think he means to use it to shoot something low on the ground. I wish my dSLR has the live view on it, it will help out a lot in those old angle shooting position.

 

[brianj]

Whats wrong with it evolving to an upfront view in your glasses connect by wireless to the camera. The way I see it is that the camera and the viewing are nothing to do with each other. We are just stuck with a poor solution at the moment. Ricoh have just moved one step further with the flippable EVF option which looks like it may be able to be removed from the camera on a cable.

Unfortunately, things move one slow step at a time, causing many of us to die long before anything revolutionary can happen.

Brian

 

[Corkcampbell]

Fortunately for myself, I entered the digital cameras through
models with articulated LCD's. Even small and dim ones, they open
for a photographer completely new world.
Sticking the eye to the box will quickly become as funny, as
covering the head with a cloth.
There is some legal fuss around fully functional articulated LCD
screen. We can observe hypocrisy of many review sources, which are
more willing to point absence of an optical viewfinder in a new
camera model, than the absence of an articulated LCD.
Olympus cameras with a new generation of live preview MOS are on
their way to the stores. Sadly, with the screens permanently welded
to the bodies.
Sony's promising CMOS from R-1 is back in the box....

because it is obvious that you have missed the point of the OP's question, probably reflecting a lack of experience with SLR cameras.

 

[Cephalotus]

I can understand newbies who have come from a point and shoot
background wanting live preview, but do many of you experienced
D/SLR photographers really want "live preview?"

I do.

And I -also- want the optical TTL viewfinder. You can have both.

Some people seem to believe that you will smell bad out of your mouth for the rest of your life if you have made a single picture that was framed by an LCD display...

 

[chuxter]

I think we've taken different paths in our love of photography.
Yours sounds like more of a point and shoot background.

No, quite the contrary. I spent 20 years with Nikon SLRs. I've been seriously using DC only 8 years.

For
example, when you talk about lag time, that sounds more like a PS
problem.

PS? What does that mean? Photoshop? Power Supply?

The reference to "lag" was specific to the slow video rate of some EVFs (they are miniature TVs). Especially in dim light, the frame rate is quite slow and when panning with a fast moving subject, the picture jerks or blinks. I'd like to have a 60 Hz minimum video frame rate!

I hang out with some friends who are avid air show photographers
using digital and I can assure you they don't have lag time issues
with their cameras; in fact it was the lack of lag time that
interested them in their specific purchases. Both have had a
number of their photos published. Standing beside them when they
shoot sounds like duelling digital cameras; they both shoot in
burst mode so over the roar of the aircraft I hear the staccato
sounds of cameras firing.

I can assure you that I was not talking about AF lag or shutter lag. Yes, there are some really fast AF system in high-end dSLRs. But the eSLR I envision will equal their AF times and totally blow them away with a fast shutter. Even today, the best P&S cameras are 20X faster than the best dSLRs where shutter response is measured. [NOTE: I said SHUTTER, not AUTO FOCUS!]

As far as tourists shots go, its their camera I hold. The Japanese
fascinate me. They will all stop in front of, lets say, a fountain
and a couple will stand in one spot and have their photo taken by
me. Then as a mob others come up to me and stand in the very same
spot for their photo; these are folks on those organized tours. I
imagine they all get home and show each other the identical photos
of their trip, the only difference in the photos is the couple
standing in front of whatever. But you know if they're having fun,
so what. So my PS experience is how would you call it,
eclectic...lol!

I still don't know what "PS" stands for!

How much do you charge for this "service? ;-)

Yes, I'll vote for a live histogram: I must confess I never thought
of it but how smart.

It's the ONE reason I don't have a dSLR. I refuse to give it up. I kid all my dSLR friends for their constant "chimping". Here is a picture of two of them doing it simultaneously. One of them is a Pro...



BTW, in case you don't know what "chimping" means, it's looking at the LCD on the back of the camera to check to see that the pic is OK. You only have to do that with dSLRs.

You mentioned Phil doesn't test for live preview, my guess is Phil
is more like me and a VF kind of guy.

Actually, I didn't say that. I said that he doesn't seem to test the video rate or the minimum EV at which the EVF can produce full brightness. He does test VFs, just does not do these two tests. BTW, the opposite of an EVF is an OVF.

Can live preview give me the same feel as a view finder;

I think it can, but then again, I'm not quite sure what you don't like. Some of the cameras you "borrowed" from the Japanese tourists prolly were not TTL cameras. Some didn't have a VF at all (required you to hold the camera at arms length to see the LCD). Some might have had EVFs and some OVFs. The Japanese buy all kinds of cameras and I don't know which ones you had that bad carma using?

Also, your above sentence implies that you think that "live preview" is the opposite of a "viewfinder"? Just to be clear, "live preview" is a key feature of EVFs (Electronic ViewFinders). Optical ViewFinders can't have "live preview" given the current technology.

I think my
answer is really different strokes for different folks. The image
of a view finder feels like its almost part of my eye in my brain,
the image of an electronic screen feels like I'm distant from the
image and I have less control over the image, especially when
quickly cropping with the zoom.

This sounds like you are comparing a P&S with no viewfinder (but with a big LCD screen on the back) with a dSLR with an OVF (optical ViewFinder) and a big LCD on the back (but the LCD can ONLY be used for looking at the picture AFTER it has been stored).

If so, there is another class of camera that has an EVF (Electronic ViewFinder) and a big LCD (mounted somewhere) that rotates and twists. With this camera, you can CHOOSE to use either the VF or the LCD...both for composing the shot and for looking at the result.

Perhaps you have never used one of this class of camera?

The image is also brighter.

Once again, I conclude that you are saying that looking through a VF is brighter than looking at an LCD.

The view finder isolates me from my surroundings so that I am
concentrating on the photo, live preview seems part of the
surrounding and I'm very aware of what is going on around me in a
distracting kind of way.

OK. I'm sure now. You are just confused. There are many cameras that have an EVF and a LCD. You can choose to used one or the other. Looking through an EVF is similar to looking through an OVF. The big differences, IMO, is 1) that the EVF actually shows you what the picture looks like, and 2) the EVF allows you to visualize other data, like histograms.

The OVF, in contrast, merely allows you to point the camera at the target (like an optical rifle sight) and you have no idea if the picture is exposed and focused correctly...that's why you have to "chimp" after each shot, to see what you got...

--
Charlie Davis
Nikon 5700 & Sony R1
CATS #25
PAS Scribe @ http://www.here-ugo.com/PAS_List.htm
HomePage: http://www.1derful.info
'I brake for pixels...'

 

[chuxter]

Just to be clear, what I'm wanting is the best of all classes of cameras:

1. Removable lenses (with small back distance)
2. Quiet (No mirror or focal-plane shutter)
3. Electronic shutter (FAST!)
4. Fast AF (Hybrid Contrast + Phase AF)
5. Fast Electronic ViewFinder
6. Live Histogram and visual blown highlights indication
7. LCD that rotates and twists

I think you would get really good carma with this guy!

--
Charlie Davis
Nikon 5700 & Sony R1
CATS #25
PAS Scribe @ http://www.here-ugo.com/PAS_List.htm
HomePage: http://www.1derful.info
'I brake for pixels...'

 

[chuxter]

Whats wrong with it evolving to an upfront view in your glasses
connect by wireless to the camera. The way I see it is that the
camera and the viewing are nothing to do with each other. We are
just stuck with a poor solution at the moment. Ricoh have just
moved one step further with the flippable EVF option which looks
like it may be able to be removed from the camera on a cable.

Some current cameras can do that already...but you have to build the setup. Here is mine:



I use it to take pix from a distance where the subject is dangerous (race cars).

--
Charlie Davis
Nikon 5700 & Sony R1
CATS #25
PAS Scribe @ http://www.here-ugo.com/PAS_List.htm
HomePage: http://www.1derful.info
'I brake for pixels...'

 

[rsn48]

The first SLR I purchased in Victoria BC from a shop on government street was a Konica T3. I asked the clerk to give me an SLR that was idiot proof and the Konica was his recommendation. This camera was shutter priority in automatic mode, could work even if the battery died, and the system lens were fairly decent.

Of course never under estimate the powers of an idiot in an idiot proof environment. I can still remember after taking my first roll of film, not realizing there was a release button under the camera you had to push to release the spool for manual rewind uptake. Yep, I pulled and pulled until I tore the film apart and then it rewound. As a testimonial to the camera, I never damaged any thing inside because of my stupidity. The camera was almost idiot proof and I took many a "great" - given my total lack of ability - photo with the camera.

Spring forward 34 years and there has been a revolution. Features that you completely take for granted, like power wind and multiple burst and spot metering, program modes, Canon's depth of field auto setting, digital sensors, on "older" cameras the automatic reading and setting of the ISO, low shutter speed warnings, I can't even begin to think of all the gizmo's on the camera today that back in the early 70's no one thought of, let alone dream about.

But you know, in many ways I almost still prefer the T3 over many of the cameras today. If anything there are too many options. The T3 is the perfect camera to hand a newbie and say, "here, go learn photography."

The camera I bought in 1990 was the Canon 10S and if you want some fun and have time on your hands, here is a link to a review of it - a great camera for its time. Did you know you could have bar code reader read codes from a supplied book, but the reader to a spot on the camera and the exposure settings were set? The problem with this camera for me was that it was so feature laden, I could never remember how to set something when I was in the field. I think I would re-read the manual about once a year for quite a number of years, and was always surprised by some feature I never knew existed, like being able to trigger the 2 second mirror lock up while the camera was in the self timer mode; I could trigger it by pointing my little infra-red devise at the camera and pressing the button.

http://photonotes.org/reviews/eos-10s/

So read through this review and realize just how far we have come from there. Yes there has been a revolution.

Enjoy
--
The answers are always inside the problem, not outside. Marshall McLuhan

 

[Diopter]

Over quarter of the century with Nikon. I think it is enough to gain distance to propaganda dictating what is, and what is not "professional". Huge yellow logos on 2" neck straps look very dilettante.

Live preview, flip-flop screen, and - perhaps in the near future - reliable remote controls - are the most distinctive means of modern photography.

 

[Corkcampbell]

I made no reference to, nor use the word, "professional", but I agree with everything that you said. My earlier reply to the OP was about his/her misunderstanding of the reason for an optical viewfinder (and a few other basics), not about other current or future viewfinders. I have used an EVF in the past and enjoyed it (KM A1/2), but I do understand the value of a true, optical one. The latter is still preferable, in my opinion, for most, but not all, situations. Whether it flips or not is silly. Other posters have addressed that.

 

[brianj]

Whats wrong with it evolving to an upfront view in your glasses
connect by wireless to the camera. The way I see it is that the
camera and the viewing are nothing to do with each other. We are
just stuck with a poor solution at the moment. Ricoh have just
moved one step further with the flippable EVF option which looks
like it may be able to be removed from the camera on a cable.

Some current cameras can do that already...but you have to build
the setup. Here is mine:



I use it to take pix from a distance where the subject is dangerous
(race cars).

Well done, but I think the manufacturers could miniturise that a bit, if they would start thinking outside the box a bit more.

Brian

 

[Ben Herrmann]

When Olympus first announced the E330, I was among the many who said, "who needs it," or "it's a nice gimmick," etc. And I actually overlooked the E330 until a few months ago when the price temporarily dropped to $569 for a week at Adorama. Okay, so I get the camera...fully expecting it to be just that...a gimmick.

Well, all I can really add was that I was not prepared to enjoy this camera the way I wound up doing. I do alot of architectural and scenic photography and I started using the Live View mode A. The next thing I knew, I was hooked beyond belief. In awkward positions - which can happen in most types of photography, this live view feature - in particular, with the articulating LCD - the increased flexibility you have is immense. In fact, I hate to admit it, but whenever I pick up the E330, I tend to use liveview most of the time - it's that addicting.

Now IMO, having liveview is nice - but without an articulating LCD...well, it's kind of limited to say the least. I will certainly be looking forward in the next several months or so when Olympus releases the much awaited successor to the E-1 - a weatherproofed magnesium body that will have both live view (with an articulating LCD) and in-body mechanical image stabilization.

So for all of the other naysayers out there...keep on discounting the cameras that have this new feature - because I will be smirking at ya...that liveview feature is that addicting.
--
Have a great day!