Linear Workflow and Challenge! (lg imgs)

[River Side]

Paul's crop



My effort.. done with dcraw

 

[pbleic]

Paul's crop



My effort.. done with dcraw

--
Paul

------------------------------------------------
Pbase supporter
Photographs at: http://www.pbase.com/pbleic
--------------------------------------------------

Unless specified otherwise, all images are Copyright 2003, 2004 All rights reserved.

 

[River Side]

so Nikon like ..

Paul's crop



My effort.. done with dcraw

--
Paul

------------------------------------------------
Pbase supporter
Photographs at: http://www.pbase.com/pbleic
--------------------------------------------------
Unless specified otherwise, all images are Copyright 2003, 2004
All rights reserved.

 

[pbleic]

The redindividual tassles have white sharpening halos around them - actually pretty severe compared with all the others. The outline of the white lion is very "jittery" looking with some noise in the orange - also sharpening artifacts.

But the shoulder is definitely oversharpened. Lots of artifacts in
the red and lion.

What artifacts? You said mine was way oversharpened as well, but
you didn't mention any specifics as to why you assert this.

--
Paul

------------------------------------------------
Pbase supporter
Photographs at: http://www.pbase.com/pbleic
--------------------------------------------------

Unless specified otherwise, all images are Copyright 2003, 2004 All rights reserved.

 

[DMahoney]

The redindividual tassles have white sharpening halos around them -
actually pretty severe compared with all the others. The outline
of the white lion is very "jittery" looking with some noise in the
orange - also sharpening artifacts

I agree. As soon as I saw that I thought, not bad, just pull back on the sharpening somewhat. The glove looks artificial, and the tassles look speckled with oversharpened noise. Maybe we just have differing ideas on what sharp should be though!

Don

 

[Victor Engel]

First, I assume we are talking about



; .

The redindividual tassles have white sharpening halos around them -

The threads in the red tassle are actually surrounded by dark, not white. There is light coloring on the threads, but nothing white. I do see a pattern of alternating light and dark pixels. This is typically a Jpeg artifact.

actually pretty severe compared with all the others. The outline
of the white lion is very "jittery" looking with some noise in the
orange - also sharpening artifacts.

Again, what I see is an alternating light/dark pattern, typical Jpeg artifact. This is not sharpening artifacts, unless, the image was saved as Jpeg, reopened, and then sharpened, in which case it is still Jpeg artifacts enhanced by a sharpening filter. But it may simply be Jpeg artifacts.

I would ask Tim to redo his work and this time not save as Jpeg until the last step, and this time, make sure to save at a quality level high enough not to leave these artifacts.

But the shoulder is definitely oversharpened. Lots of artifacts in
the red and lion.

What artifacts? You said mine was way oversharpened as well, but
you didn't mention any specifics as to why you assert this.

--
Paul

------------------------------------------------
Pbase supporter
Photographs at: http://www.pbase.com/pbleic
--------------------------------------------------
Unless specified otherwise, all images are Copyright 2003, 2004
All rights reserved.

 

[Victor Engel]

Please see my other post for an explanation

The redindividual tassles have white sharpening halos around them -
actually pretty severe compared with all the others. The outline
of the white lion is very "jittery" looking with some noise in the
orange - also sharpening artifacts

I agree. As soon as I saw that I thought, not bad, just pull back
on the sharpening somewhat. The glove looks artificial, and the
tassles look speckled with oversharpened noise. Maybe we just have
differing ideas on what sharp should be though!

Don

 

[Victor Engel]

Where are the sharpening artifacts, or do you simply not like such a sharp picture? The settings I used here are actually fairly typical settings I use if the original has the detail to support it. I find that using a radius of 0.3 and applying sharpening more than once is superior to using a larger radius, like the 0.4 you used, and applying only once.

In order to match the lightness of yours better, I've added a
curves adjustment. I show my new version first, then yours, then my
original.

--
Paul

------------------------------------------------
Pbase supporter
Photographs at: http://www.pbase.com/pbleic
--------------------------------------------------
Unless specified otherwise, all images are Copyright 2003, 2004
All rights reserved.

 

[pbleic]

But I still think it looks oversharpened. I would like to see this done with a highest quality setting.

Paul

The redindividual tassles have white sharpening halos around them -
actually pretty severe compared with all the others. The outline
of the white lion is very "jittery" looking with some noise in the
orange - also sharpening artifacts

I agree. As soon as I saw that I thought, not bad, just pull back
on the sharpening somewhat. The glove looks artificial, and the
tassles look speckled with oversharpened noise. Maybe we just have
differing ideas on what sharp should be though!

Don

--
Paul

------------------------------------------------
Pbase supporter
Photographs at: http://www.pbase.com/pbleic
--------------------------------------------------

Unless specified otherwise, all images are Copyright 2003, 2004 All rights reserved.

 

[pbleic]

Victor:

To answer your question about your picture, above - yes, I believe it is heavily oversharpened for my taste, and for many people. Looks like a P&S. That is the subjective part - you may like it. No problem.

As for sharpening artifacts, look at this 200X of your picture - look at your own photo if you think I am talking about JPEG artifacts. The thick white ghost along the stripes and the uniforms is a pretty significant sharpening artifact:



--
Paul

------------------------------------------------
Pbase supporter
Photographs at: http://www.pbase.com/pbleic
--------------------------------------------------

Unless specified otherwise, all images are Copyright 2003, 2004 All rights reserved.

 

[Victor Engel]

Oh, the overall picture? I wasn't concentrating on detail for that picture. If you think there are sharpening artifacts on that one, you are right. I just did a quick sharpen after resizing and probably overdid it. I thought the purpose of the overall picture was to see what the overall colors and dynamic range, etc. were. I consider it to be like a thumbnail -- not the real thing.

What about the zoomed pictures? Do you think they are oversharpened?

Victor:

To answer your question about your picture, above - yes, I believe
it is heavily oversharpened for my taste, and for many people.
Looks like a P&S. That is the subjective part - you may like it.
No problem.

As for sharpening artifacts, look at this 200X of your picture -
look at your own photo if you think I am talking about JPEG
artifacts. The thick white ghost along the stripes and the
uniforms is a pretty significant sharpening artifact:



--
Paul

------------------------------------------------
Pbase supporter
Photographs at: http://www.pbase.com/pbleic
--------------------------------------------------
Unless specified otherwise, all images are Copyright 2003, 2004
All rights reserved.

 

[pbleic]

My oversharpening comment was posted on your only picture - the overall one. You didn't post any detail pictures.

Paul

What about the zoomed pictures? Do you think they are oversharpened?

Victor:

To answer your question about your picture, above - yes, I believe
it is heavily oversharpened for my taste, and for many people.
Looks like a P&S. That is the subjective part - you may like it.
No problem.

As for sharpening artifacts, look at this 200X of your picture -
look at your own photo if you think I am talking about JPEG
artifacts. The thick white ghost along the stripes and the
uniforms is a pretty significant sharpening artifact:



--
Paul

------------------------------------------------
Pbase supporter
Photographs at: http://www.pbase.com/pbleic
--------------------------------------------------
Unless specified otherwise, all images are Copyright 2003, 2004
All rights reserved.

--
Paul

------------------------------------------------
Pbase supporter
Photographs at: http://www.pbase.com/pbleic
--------------------------------------------------

Unless specified otherwise, all images are Copyright 2003, 2004 All rights reserved.

 

[Victor Engel]

I looked again at this and decided to make a comparison to your picture. By the way, I'm not sure what you mean by 200X. It is enlarged 400%, or thereabouts. I see some of the same features in yours, by the way (although not as strong). I also see chromatic distortion in yours that is absent in mine for some reason.

 

[Victor Engel]

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1031&message=9032361

 

[bjs1]

But, EVU conversion (linear/non linear) cannot save a few precious
photos where the highlights are slightly blown.

And while C1 can do the same, the colors are sometimes just dead
wrong using the standard profile and has been admitted as much by
them.

Agreed. Magne's profiles are a good addition to C1 to fix the color problems. Personally, I use a custom profile I made with Profile Prism although I don't recommend that for most people...it takes too much knowledge and care to make a good one...better to just buy Magne's profiles (which didn't exist when I started).

I also use C1's often forgotten "linear mode" rather than their standard film curves. Much better shadow/highlight detail and a better basis for tonal range "touch up" later in Photoshop IMHO.

I've also played with EVU/FVU linear mode conversion with custom profiles but I don't like the workflow compared to C1 and the improvements are so marginal I no longer bother. I prefer to spend the energy trying to take a better picture!!!

 

[pbleic]

USM sharpening is an exaggeration of existing light/dark around areas of contrast. Yes, it was a 200% crop that I doubled in size to show.

My original comment was about your overall picture which was heavily oversharpened. Your crops are better. I think we are losing the thread here, as this isn't a sharpening thread.
--
Paul

------------------------------------------------
Pbase supporter
Photographs at: http://www.pbase.com/pbleic
--------------------------------------------------

Unless specified otherwise, all images are Copyright 2003, 2004 All rights reserved.

 

[pbleic]

I wouldn't use this for my day to day. But for making large prints - yes, this is the way I will go.

Paul

But, EVU conversion (linear/non linear) cannot save a few precious
photos where the highlights are slightly blown.

And while C1 can do the same, the colors are sometimes just dead
wrong using the standard profile and has been admitted as much by
them.

Agreed. Magne's profiles are a good addition to C1 to fix the
color problems. Personally, I use a custom profile I made with
Profile Prism although I don't recommend that for most people...it
takes too much knowledge and care to make a good one...better to
just buy Magne's profiles (which didn't exist when I started).

I also use C1's often forgotten "linear mode" rather than their
standard film curves. Much better shadow/highlight detail and a
better basis for tonal range "touch up" later in Photoshop IMHO.

I've also played with EVU/FVU linear mode conversion with custom
profiles but I don't like the workflow compared to C1 and the
improvements are so marginal I no longer bother. I prefer to spend
the energy trying to take a better picture!!!

--
Paul

------------------------------------------------
Pbase supporter
Photographs at: http://www.pbase.com/pbleic
--------------------------------------------------

Unless specified otherwise, all images are Copyright 2003, 2004 All rights reserved.

 

[DMahoney]

First, I assume we are talking about
http://cakili.image.pbase.com/image/29742781/original.jpg

The threads in the red tassle are actually surrounded by dark, not
white. There is light coloring on the threads, but nothing white. I
do see a pattern of alternating light and dark pixels. This is
typically a Jpeg artifact.

Yup, that was the file... and looking closer at it, getting right up to the screen, it DOES look like it might be jpg artifacts. I notice it now too on the crest, in the red around the lion. Hmm... from my normal viewing distance the tassle looks like it has lots of sharpened noise. It may be in fact a high compression jpg artifact. In which case I will reserve judgement on the sharpening! It would be nice, as Paul suggested, (I think) to see a low compression file with no jpg artifacts, to be able to judge properly!

Don

 

[Jean Valentin]

Hi Kevin,

Can you please tell me what settings and what profile did you use to convert this picture (C1)? I cannot get your results using C1 LE.

--
Regards,
Val

 

[Kevin H]

Hello Val,

To preserve the highlights, make sure the converter box is toggled for linear response and not the film standard setting that C1 usually defaults to. From there, I go to the curves in the exposure tab and give the picture an S-type curve, making the bends at 1/4 and 3/4 marks. The bend at the 1/4 mark hits the intersection of the graph lines, while the bend at the 3/4 mark is near the top of the graph. Click on the blue/red shadow/highlight button at the top to check for blown highlights. Reduce EC until little or no red is showing (this preserves your highlights). I used -0.55 EC here. Process to tiff without color sat boost or any sharpening.

Bring this into PSE2 and apply curves to brighten it up. I think I may have added a contrast mask filter too, but I can't remember right now. USM at 250, 0.3, 3 or something close to that.

That's it. 5 minutes of my time It's very close to Paul's, but I think the linear conversion from EVU is a smidge better. But what a pain of a workflow.

K

--
My most recent work: http://home.comcast.net/~khilleg