Light too LARGE .... choices are .........

TMacaw

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A pic of one of my show cats was critiqued and one comment was ....'Main too large'. I use a large diffusion panel for Main light but also use barndoors on it. Please comment on some different scenarios ..... assume that the critique is valid .... I believe my choices are ....close the barndoors more, or move the light back, or both. Correct? What are the tradeoffs of one choice or the other?

Also, if I go for a softbox, and if the critque is the same, I believe my choices would be ... move the SB back, or mask the SB, or both. Correct? I would probably use a circle mask in my case. What are tradeoffs of moving back or masking?

Finally, if I choose a SB which is (1) size too large ..... do I get a decent result by masking it (strip mask) or does that compromise the quality of light due to blocking and bouncing of light inside the SB?

I hope you can help! I am already changin things and doing testing, but it is rigorous and your experienced comments can help me focus my attempts. They will also help me avoid purchasing th wrong size softbox.

TMc
 
A pic of one of my show cats was critiqued and one comment was
....'Main too large'.
Who said so? What reasons were given? Do YOU agree?
I use a large diffusion panel for Main light
but also use barndoors on it. Please comment on some different
scenarios ..... assume that the critique is valid .... I believe
my choices are ....close the barndoors more, or move the light
back, or both. Correct? What are the tradeoffs of one choice or
the other?
Okay, you can always 'flagg' the light emitting surface / panel with something black (for accent and rim lights), but why should you do so with the main light? Can you show the pic?
Also, if I go for a softbox, and if the critque is the same, I
believe my choices would be ... move the SB back, or mask the SB,
or both. Correct? I would probably use a circle mask in my case.
What are tradeoffs of moving back or masking?
With moving back you change the position and angle of the lighting, and so the shadow fall. Better 'flagg' or mask it.
Finally, if I choose a SB which is (1) size too large ..... do I
get a decent result by masking it (strip mask) or does that
compromise the quality of light due to blocking and bouncing of
light inside the SB?
No problem or risk of health by blocking light, let it bounce inside the sobo as long as it likes...sooner or later it comes out ;-)

--
Kind regards,
Peter B.
(Pardon my English. Still practising)
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi, Peter. Thanks for replying so quickly. I will try to post the pic a bit later. I am bidding on some softboxes but have not won any yet. Trying for 36" x 48" although that may be slightly large for my pet portraits. 24" x 32" is my next choice, but could be just a bit too small.

i plan to do shots again tonight and close the barndoors to 'flag' the Main a bit and see what happens.
TMc
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi, Peter. Thanks for replying so quickly. I will try to post the
pic a bit later. I am bidding on some softboxes but have not won
any yet. Trying for 36" x 48" although that may be slightly large
for my pet portraits. 24" x 32" is my next choice, but could be
just a bit too small.
i plan to do shots again tonight and close the barndoors to 'flag'
the Main a bit and see what happens.
TMc
Caveat: I'm only passing on the info from a lighting seminar I took, no personal experience to back it up.

It was suggested that the largest sb you can afford be used, you can always flag or mask to make smaller and aim to control spill. Closer will make light softer and large will allow for full length portrait. This was in reference to key light.

The main too big sounds like a light spill issue, please post pic so others with more experience can give constructive feedback.

FCF
--
--Now where did I put that extra set of batteries?
 
Caveat: I'm only passing on the info from a lighting seminar I
took, no personal experience to back it up.

It was suggested that the largest sb you can afford be used, you
can always flag or mask to make smaller and aim to control spill.
Closer will make light softer and large will allow for full length
portrait. This was in reference to key light.

The main too big sounds like a light spill issue, please post pic
so others with more experience can give constructive feedback.

FCF
--
--Now where did I put that extra set of batteries?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I will post shortly ....... and I accept the caveat you mentioned in your post. Having said that, when I spoke with a highly reputed SB supplier this week, that person indicated a concern of their technical management regarding effects of light output characteristics when their SB's are masked. That is the extent of the comment, not any indication that negative issues have been observed. This discussion is the basis for my attempts to do everything possible to avoid choosing the wrong SB when I purchase very soon.
TMc
 
....a few caveats of my own ... this pic was only intended to work on light set-up and subject was not groomed or specially posed in any way. Most of my time is spent trying to position subject so Main light fully brightens the eyes. This is time consuming and frustrating, but sometimes I win ... not in this one. The critique stated: MAIN too large, too much FILL, ACCENT too bright & too low .... end of caveats.



Thoughts?

TMc
 
....a few caveats of my own ... this pic was only intended to work
on light set-up and subject was not groomed or specially posed in
any way. Most of my time is spent trying to position subject so
Main light fully brightens the eyes. This is time consuming and
frustrating, but sometimes I win ... not in this one. The critique
stated: MAIN too large, too much FILL, ACCENT too bright & too low
.... end of caveats.
First, you need to be aware that there are a lot of people out there who are quick to offer lighting advice - even though they know less about the subject than you do.

Second, there are some very proficient lighting technicians out there who think your pictures should look just like the pictures they would take - and therefore should be lighted the same way.

In the end, you have only yourself who needs to be satisfied - and your clients, if you have any. There are a hundred ways to light every subject, and many different techniques can lead to pleasing results. One problem is, the work you are producing now and are delighted with now may look terrible to you at some point in the future when you look back on it.

The sample picture you posted has lighting which looks fine, and many photographers and clients would be pleased with the result. However, if it was me shooting this scene, I would position the accent light a little higher. In my opinion, the cat's fur appears too low in contrast for my tastes, which indicates your main light has too much diffusion. This may be what the other critic meant by your main light being "too large."

The size of the light source, in relation to the subject, affects only how sharply defined will be the shadow edge as the transition is made between highlight and shadow. A small light source makes the shadow edge appear as though it was painted on with a paint brush, and has a sharply defined edge. A large light source makes the shadow edge look like it was spray painted on - and has a more gradual, gradient transition from highlight to shadow. But none of this ( see footnote below) has anything to do with the low contrast, "flat" appearance of the cat's fur. The contrast quality of the light is regulated by the amount of diffusion, not by the size of the light source.

For one thing, your sample image is slightly out of focus. Since focusing accuracy also affects image contrast, it becomes more difficult to suggest subtle changes in lighting technique. The contrast of the image can be improved with post processing techniques. Here I'm suggesting that if the image had been sharply focused, and if the contrast had been optimized in post-processing - then all of your lighting critics may have been silenced.

Large light sources do not work well in small rooms with white ceilings, and nearby reflective walls. A large light source spills a lot of light onto the ceiling, floor and walls of the room - all of which reflects back onto the subject. The consequence is the light source loses its directionality, and contrast quality to some degree. With a low white ceiling and nearby white walls, you end up with the "bare-bulb" effect. In other words, even though you have thousands of dollars invested in monolights and softboxes, the lighting effect looks the same as if you were using a single, shoe-mount flash on-camera with a Sto-fen Omnibounce.

Large softboxes work well if you are shooting ski boats or bedroom furniture suites for a catalog, and your lights are positioned 15 or 20 feet away from the subject. Large softboxes work well if your ceiling and walls are painted black, so that the spill light they emit can't reflect back onto the subject. If you insist on using large softboxes within a small shooting space or camera room, you must use grids to keep the spill light from bouncing off of the ceiling and walls.

If you must shoot within a small, confined space (particularly if it has a white ceiling), I suggest using smallish softboxes (with grids) - and position them as close to your subject as you can get them.
 
A pic of one of my show cats was critiqued and one comment was
....'Main too large'. I use a large diffusion panel for Main light
but also use barndoors on it. Please comment on some different
scenarios ..... assume that the critique is valid .... I believe
my choices are ....close the barndoors more, or move the light
back, or both. Correct? What are the tradeoffs of one choice or
the other?

Also, if I go for a softbox, and if the critque is the same, I
believe my choices would be ... move the SB back, or mask the SB,
or both. Correct? I would probably use a circle mask in my case.
What are tradeoffs of moving back or masking?

Finally, if I choose a SB which is (1) size too large ..... do I
get a decent result by masking it (strip mask) or does that
compromise the quality of light due to blocking and bouncing of
light inside the SB?

I hope you can help! I am already changin things and doing testing,
but it is rigorous and your experienced comments can help me focus
my attempts. They will also help me avoid purchasing th wrong size
softbox.

TMc
--
Wishing You Great Light!
Paul
--

Perhaps spend more time on the concept then the nuts and bolts will line up like magic.
 
....a few caveats of my own ... this pic was only intended to work
on light set-up and subject was not groomed or specially posed in
any way. Most of my time is spent trying to position subject so
Main light fully brightens the eyes. This is time consuming and
frustrating, but sometimes I win ... not in this one. The critique
stated: MAIN too large, too much FILL, ACCENT too bright & too low
.... end of caveats.
First, you need to be aware that there are a lot of people out
there who are quick to offer lighting advice - even though they
know less about the subject than you do.

Second, there are some very proficient lighting technicians out
there who think your pictures should look just like the pictures
they would take - and therefore should be lighted the same way.

In the end, you have only yourself who needs to be satisfied - and
your clients, if you have any. There are a hundred ways to light
every subject, and many different techniques can lead to pleasing
results. One problem is, the work you are producing now and are
delighted with now may look terrible to you at some point in the
future when you look back on it.

The sample picture you posted has lighting which looks fine, and
many photographers and clients would be pleased with the result.
However, if it was me shooting this scene, I would position the
accent light a little higher. In my opinion, the cat's fur appears
too low in contrast for my tastes, which indicates your main light
has too much diffusion. This may be what the other critic meant by
your main light being "too large."

The size of the light source, in relation to the subject, affects
only how sharply defined will be the shadow edge as the transition
is made between highlight and shadow. A small light source makes
the shadow edge appear as though it was painted on with a paint
brush, and has a sharply defined edge. A large light source makes
the shadow edge look like it was spray painted on - and has a more
gradual, gradient transition from highlight to shadow. But none of
this ( see footnote below) has anything to do with the low
contrast, "flat" appearance of the cat's fur. The contrast quality
of the light is regulated by the amount of diffusion, not by the
size of the light source.

For one thing, your sample image is slightly out of focus. Since
focusing accuracy also affects image contrast, it becomes more
difficult to suggest subtle changes in lighting technique. The
contrast of the image can be improved with post processing
techniques. Here I'm suggesting that if the image had been sharply
focused, and if the contrast had been optimized in post-processing
  • then all of your lighting critics may have been silenced.
Large light sources do not work well in small rooms with white
ceilings, and nearby reflective walls. A large light source spills
a lot of light onto the ceiling, floor and walls of the room - all
of which reflects back onto the subject. The consequence is the
light source loses its directionality, and contrast quality to some
degree. With a low white ceiling and nearby white walls, you end
up with the "bare-bulb" effect. In other words, even though you
have thousands of dollars invested in monolights and softboxes, the
lighting effect looks the same as if you were using a single,
shoe-mount flash on-camera with a Sto-fen Omnibounce.

Large softboxes work well if you are shooting ski boats or bedroom
furniture suites for a catalog, and your lights are positioned 15
or 20 feet away from the subject. Large softboxes work well if
your ceiling and walls are painted black, so that the spill light
they emit can't reflect back onto the subject. If you insist on
using large softboxes within a small shooting space or camera room,
you must use grids to keep the spill light from bouncing off of the
ceiling and walls.

If you must shoot within a small, confined space (particularly if
it has a white ceiling), I suggest using smallish softboxes (with
grids) - and position them as close to your subject as you can get
them.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

.... how much I must review and refine things I already know, but fail to implement. Each of your points was like being smacked in the face with copies of books and thoughtful messages from the recent past.

Thank-you for such a well written and focused response to my post. There are several points which you state in different words and they have clearer meaning when applied to my studio and subjects.

I will shoot for the 'smallish' SB and grid, but some budgetary planning will be required, since the grid is equal to the SB in cost. Does smallish fall in the 24" x 32" range or 16" x 22" range for this type of subject?
Thank-you very much.

TMc
 
Large light sources do not work well in small rooms with white
ceilings, and nearby reflective walls. A large light source spills
a lot of light onto the ceiling, floor and walls of the room - all
of which reflects back onto the subject. The consequence is the
light source loses its directionality, and contrast quality to some
degree. With a low white ceiling and nearby white walls, you end
up with the "bare-bulb" effect. In other words, even though you
have thousands of dollars invested in monolights and softboxes, the
lighting effect looks the same as if you were using a single,
shoe-mount flash on-camera with a Sto-fen Omnibounce.

Large softboxes work well if you are shooting ski boats or bedroom
furniture suites for a catalog, and your lights are positioned 15
or 20 feet away from the subject. Large softboxes work well if
your ceiling and walls are painted black, so that the spill light
they emit can't reflect back onto the subject. If you insist on
using large softboxes within a small shooting space or camera room,
you must use grids to keep the spill light from bouncing off of the
ceiling and walls.

If you must shoot within a small, confined space (particularly if
it has a white ceiling), I suggest using smallish softboxes (with
grids) - and position them as close to your subject as you can get
them.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
I know this isn't black and white, but I need to go for one choice now and then evaluate. You nailed my studio situation spot on ..... you know my subject size and characterisitics .... which of these SB's best fits this scenario?
TMc
 
I know this isn't black and white, but I need to go for one choice
now and then evaluate. You nailed my studio situation spot on
..... you know my subject size and characterisitics .... which of
these SB's best fits this scenario?
I think I would go for the 24 X 32, that's the short answer.

You know, prior to about 1980, softboxes were not mass production items. Before then, if you wanted to use a softbox, you had to make it yourself - so they were not being widely used like today.

Softboxes were invented to achieve a very specific lighting effect, for specific applications. Because renaissance era portrait painters often illuminated their subjects by skylight streaming into the studio through a window, some enterprising photographer calculated that the same effect could be achieved by using electronic flash fired through a softbox. In summary, light from a softbox is supposed to simulate or emulate the light from the Northern sky streaming in through a window. Big softbox equals big window - small softbox equals small window.

Now, softbox lighting is often very flattering for human portrait subjects. But it is a terrible mistake to believe softboxes provide the ideal lighting for all human portrait subjects, all the time - and an even bigger mistake to believe that softboxes are a pancea which solves all lighting challenges and serves as a substitute for creativity and broader understanding of lighting. If you use softboxes for everything you shoot, all of your pictures end up looking the same - regardless of the subject matter, and you will soon become bored with your own pictures.

Softboxes certainly have their place when used as a main light, and always work well when used as a fill light. But I think most photographers could learn more about how to really control their lighting, and learn it faster, by using honeycomb grids snapped into or onto the reflector bowl of their main light. Alien Bees, for example, sells honeycomb grids which snap directly into the rim of the standard 7 inch reflector bowl. I have cut a 7 inch disc out of Lexan diffuser material which I place behind the honeycomb grid. If you put the diffusion material in front of the grid instead of behind it, you lose the grid effect and control over the size of the cone of light.
 
I know this isn't black and white, but I need to go for one choice
now and then evaluate. You nailed my studio situation spot on
..... you know my subject size and characterisitics .... which of
these SB's best fits this scenario?
I think I would go for the 24 X 32, that's the short answer.

You know, prior to about 1980, softboxes were not mass production
items. Before then, if you wanted to use a softbox, you had to
make it yourself - so they were not being widely used like today.

Softboxes were invented to achieve a very specific lighting effect,
for specific applications. Because renaissance era portrait
painters often illuminated their subjects by skylight streaming
into the studio through a window, some enterprising photographer
calculated that the same effect could be achieved by using
electronic flash fired through a softbox. In summary, light from a
softbox is supposed to simulate or emulate the light from the
Northern sky streaming in through a window. Big softbox equals big
window - small softbox equals small window.

Now, softbox lighting is often very flattering for human portrait
subjects. But it is a terrible mistake to believe softboxes
provide the ideal lighting for all human portrait subjects, all the
time - and an even bigger mistake to believe that softboxes are a
pancea which solves all lighting challenges and serves as a
substitute for creativity and broader understanding of lighting.
If you use softboxes for everything you shoot, all of your pictures
end up looking the same - regardless of the subject matter, and you
will soon become bored with your own pictures.

Softboxes certainly have their place when used as a main light, and
always work well when used as a fill light. But I think most
photographers could learn more about how to really control their
lighting, and learn it faster, by using honeycomb grids snapped
into or onto the reflector bowl of their main light. Alien Bees,
for example, sells honeycomb grids which snap directly into the rim
of the standard 7 inch reflector bowl. I have cut a 7 inch disc
out of Lexan diffuser material which I place behind the honeycomb
grid. If you put the diffusion material in front of the grid
instead of behind it, you lose the grid effect and control over the
size of the cone of light.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

.....this seems to be a time when I need to stop, reflect, and do some free thinking and experimentation. I was actually on the verge of acquiring a frame and grids for my Photogenic lights. Something got me off track and turned to SB's even though smaller, hard light is likely more appropriate for my subjects. I just spent a few hours with essentially the same set-up as before, but (2) major changes. Added boom arm to Accent light and positioned directly overhead. Removed diffusion panel and shot straight at eye level with only barndoors. I had thought at the time, "it would be really neat to have a grid to ease the bright flash from the cat's eyes".
Here's one from that session.



Eyes are great, Accent seems to be ok, Backround is too weak, Fill may still be to much.
I do like the change from the diffusion panel.
Many thanks for great support and coaching.
TMc
 
Hi,

Sorry to intervene with a parallel question, I'm trying to get an answer to a SB size question in a separate thread but to no avail...

Anyway, you said you would choose a 24'x32' over a 16'x22' for a cat shot. Does it mean that for a 3/4 portrait shot you would actually recommend a 36'x48' over a 24'x32'?

Thanks for the reply in advance.
 
Anyway, you said you would choose a 24'x32' over a 16'x22' for a
cat shot. Does it mean that for a 3/4 portrait shot you would
actually recommend a 36'x48' over a 24'x32'?
No. Companies who make a lot of different sized softboxes, such as Photoflex, would classify a 24 X 32 as "medium" size. This is an average, or normal, or typical size which will give good results in a wide variety of applications. It can produce effects similar to a larger sized or smaller sized softbox by moving it closer to or farther away from the subject. Softboxes which are either larger or smaller than "medium" would be chosen if you have a specific application in mind, specific subject matter, or a specific lighting effect desired, or a specific shooting location.

I use a 24 X 32 softbox as the fill light in my portrait studio camera room for (almost) every shot. It would work fine for a main light also, but I prefer a 36 inch Octodome for that. I use a 12 X 16 "Extra small" softbox attached to a Sunpak Auto 611 handlemount flash, mounted on a light stand and triggered with a radio slave, as my "main light" for outdoor portraits. A larger size doesn't work well for me outdoors because they catch more wind and tip over the lightstand more readily. So again, the size softbox you use is often regulated by practical considerations - the size of the room in which you will be working, etc.

If buying a first softbox, a 24 X 32 is probably the most versatile and "all purpose" choice you could make. Start out with that, and then buy something larger or smaller only if you can justify a different size based on the results you are getting.
 
there's no such thing as a "too large light". Want it smaller - move it away. But why would you want it smaller??? Large lights create gorgeous soft lighting. If it's too flat, move it more to the side/top. Just learn how to use it effectively, and you will produce beautiful photos.

---------------
http://www.olegkikin.com
 
there's no such thing as a "too large light". Want it smaller -
move it away. But why would you want it smaller??? Large lights
create gorgeous soft lighting. If it's too flat, move it more to
the side/top. Just learn how to use it effectively, and you will
produce beautiful photos.

---------------
http://www.olegkikin.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Lots to learn for me and in this case the diffusion panel was probably not the best choice for a light modifier. Follow-on shots with bare reflector produced better results.
Thank-you for commenting.
TMc
 
there's no such thing as a "too large light". Want it smaller -
move it away. But why would you want it smaller??? Large lights
create gorgeous soft lighting. If it's too flat, move it more to
the side/top. Just learn how to use it effectively, and you will
produce beautiful photos.

---------------
http://www.olegkikin.com
Joe Peoples writes:

No such thing as "too large light"?...then why do they make different size softboxes, umbrellas, etc.?
 
there's no such thing as a "too large light". Want it smaller -
move it away. But why would you want it smaller??? Large lights
create gorgeous soft lighting. If it's too flat, move it more to
the side/top. Just learn how to use it effectively, and you will
produce beautiful photos.

---------------
http://www.olegkikin.com
kind of laughed myself when I first heard it, but thought it might have been a language barrier issue.
--
Regards....Matt K
' Why isn't Phonetic spelled the way it sounds ???? '

'You only get one sunrise and one sunset a day and you only get so many days on the planet. A good photographer does the math and doesn't waste either.'....Galen Rowell
Exerpt from Thom Hogan's web Site http://www.bythom.com a must visit site for all.
 

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