Language....?????

[Don Lashier]

The British is coming! The British is coming!

There - does that make you happy John?

Don

John

But I'd like to hear (from you or someone else) if the plural usage is
typical in England, or British heritage countries, like someone else
suggested.

Keep up the good work

Don

I'm just sitting here and enjoying been trashed by everyone.

Cheers guys.

 

[misha]

I would say I am not as bothered by spelling because I am a terrible
speller. More then that though most mispellings are still readable
phonetically. The meaning of the sentance is not affected.

John

John,

Don't you think that being a poor (or at least less than careful) speller somewhat weakens your position as a defender of grammar standards? This is all Language, after all, you can't say: we have problems with spelling, but grammar is a totally different thing, we won't allow any irregularity here. Some spelling mistakes actually complicate understanding, like the common use of "then" instead of "than". Others are just annoying, like - in a photography forum - the ubiqitous "lense" and "aperature".

As for the specific question of "Sony have announced", one can argue that one is referring to a group that collectively has/have made a certain announcement - similar in a way to "the police are warning...". You may disagree with this interpretation, but there is at least some basis for it.

Michael

 

[John Burns]

Read my original post. I did not ride in like a knight on a white horse trying to slay the poor grammar dragon. I simply asked a question. I think if you read through this thread you will find the the "defender of language" posts came from others who seem more knowledgeable on the subject than I.

As for your argument that Sony can be considered plural I reject it completely. If you said "Sony engineers have announced" that would certainly be correct for the reasons you mentioned.

John

John,

Don't you think that being a poor (or at least less than careful) speller
somewhat weakens your position as a defender of grammar standards? This
is all Language, after all, you can't say: we have problems with
spelling, but grammar is a totally different thing, we won't allow any
irregularity here. Some spelling mistakes actually complicate
understanding, like the common use of "then" instead of "than". Others
are just annoying, like - in a photography forum - the ubiqitous "lense"
and "aperature".

As for the specific question of "Sony have announced", one can argue that
one is referring to a group that collectively has/have made a certain
announcement - similar in a way to "the police are warning...". You may
disagree with this interpretation, but there is at least some basis for
it.

Michael

 

[John Burns]

So far we have not had personal attacks. I am simply responding to replies in a thread I started. May I respectfully suggest you stop reading if you find it upsetting. Perhaps you did not notice the " " at the end of the last post. Thankfully I am sure Phil did since we have had a "few" conversations previously.

As for my spelling I have readily admitted my shortcomings in that area although I do know how to spell both those words. I must have typed "grammar" at least 20 times in this thread. Did you count?

John

We is not trashing you Phil. I has given that up.

John

John,

Your laboring this point is getting a bit obnoxious - it's OK to note
your disagreement with the observed tendency, but you don't have to point
a finger at specific persons, complaining that the person who has brought
you this website cannot write correct English.

And by the way, the correct spellings are "grammar", not "grammer", and
"visible", not "visable" (from your previous posts)

Michael
(not a native English speaker)

Whether or not we accept the plural usage concept, I did notice an
inconsistency in Phils news headlines.
"Samsung breaks ..." singular
"Samsung have introduced ... " plural
and
"Agfa cuts price ..." singular
"Agfa have decided ..." plural
I suppose some argument could be made for different context, but being a
mathematician by training, I highly value consistency.

I'm just sitting here and enjoying been trashed by everyone.

Cheers guys.

 

[misha]

So far we have not had personal attacks. I am simply responding to
replies in a thread I started. May I respectfully suggest you stop
reading if you find it upsetting. Perhaps you did not notice the " "
at the end of the last post. Thankfully I am sure Phil did since we have
had a "few" conversations previously.

As for my spelling I have readily admitted my shortcomings in that area
although I do know how to spell both those words. I must have typed
"grammar" at least 20 times in this thread. Did you count?

John

All right, John, sorry if I took it too seriously. Regards,

Michael

 

[Rodger Carter]

Interesting to see so many posts on a non-digicam subject. Its surprising that the English language would generate so much interest on a digicam forum.

Thank goodness you didn't get into punctuation! Even the MS Word grammar checker doesn't always save you there.

For those who are concerned, typing a post in MS Word first and then copying it to the forum helps greatly. Its amazing how many typos you can overlook when they are your own (no matter how many times you review the material before posting it) .

Incidentally, it might help if this forum had a "review post" option as most other forums do. For some reason I don't quite understand, I often catch errors in review that I didn't see in the original even though I reread the original several times.

Rodger

 

[Fred]

I saw an interesting article on BBC about in 10 years the native English speakers will be outnumbered by people who speak English as a second language.

The take on the article is that native speakers had better be prepared for changes in the language....

I guess pictures may be worth more than a thousand words....

ff

 

[Ulysses]

Nice point, Fred -

I think that with the nature of communications these days, rules are going to have to take a back seat in general to allow for the "mistakes" and additions of a more global community. Whether or not this changes our perceptions of verb tenses, I won't even hazard to guess, but even dictionaries are adding new word forms and usages all the time. Why not expect changes in other aspects as well, as long as we understand the point of the thought being communicated?

I saw an interesting article on BBC about in 10 years the native English
speakers will be outnumbered by people who speak English as a second
language.

The take on the article is that native speakers had better be prepared
for changes in the language....

I guess pictures may be worth more than a thousand words....

ff

 

[Rinus]

Interesting to see so many posts on a non-digicam subject. Its
surprising that the English language would generate so much interest on a
digicam forum.

Thank goodness you didn't get into punctuation! Even the MS Word grammar
checker doesn't always save you there.

For those who are concerned, typing a post in MS Word first and then
copying it to the forum helps greatly. Its amazing how many typos you
can overlook when they are your own (no matter how many times you review
the material before posting it) .

Incidentally, it might help if this forum had a "review post" option as
most other forums do. For some reason I don't quite understand, I often
catch errors in review that I didn't see in the original even though I
reread the original several times.

Rodger

----------------
Thanks for that hint about prewriting in separate word-processor.

I always thought that a spell or grammar check would help a lot with fast typed answers.

It has happened to me a number of times that I had to get clarification from one of my clients due to incorrect grammar.

Incorrect usage of grammar is not a crucial problem here only a temporary annoyance.

There are jobs and circumstances where incorrect usage of words or language may punished immediately with disaster like in the legal or medical or financial professions.

I find it disconcerting when I have to ask anyone for an explanation because it puts the other person on the spot. More so, they feel often criticized and instead of a bond, the barrier goes up.
Enough said about this, let's get back to those pictures
Rinus

 

[John Burns]

This has been great fun. I am quite amazed at the number of responses in this thread. Thanks to all that joined in. Now back to the cameras!!

John

I'm not an English major but something is bothering me about the use of
linking verbs on this AND OTHER sites. When referring to a company the
plural is often used (ex. Sony are releasing....Nikon have released).
Also in the news section today a mention of the PC Watch site uses the
plural linking verb "have" to refer to the site. I am not trying to
start any kind of a flame war and this should in no way be considered a
criticism of Phil but this brings up some troubling thoughts.

1. I have been writing and speaking incorrectly for 52 years. (possible,
I've been doing other things wrong nearly that long)

2. Incorrect grammer is spreading over the net since this is becoming
more common. (which leads me to believe I may have missed something)

3. Someone changed the rules while I was taking a nap.

If anyone of you linguists could spread some light on this I would
appreciate it. I am LD in spelling but thought I at least had an
understanding of the basic grammer rules.

John

 

[Erich11836]

John -

A few hundred years ago in England, there were probably fewer rules to go
on when it came to grammar. Examining some of the literature of the
period reveals a lot of variation between different locales and stations
in life.

I'm surprised that you aren't even more bothered by the mistakes in
spelling, which tend to be far more glaring from post to post
(surprisingly, in this entire thread as well) than any problems with verb
tenses where even the "rules" allow for more leniency.

Yeah, and how about the misuse of "there" and "their" which go pass the spell checkers.
I see this (that?) misuse on a regular basis around the office e-mail.
(English is not my native language.)
John, you started something interesting, I have been laughing all night.
Erich

I will take your work for it, however when you have to cite sports
announcers as an authority on language usage you are on shaky ground.

 

[Peter iNova]

Rite. The colour of advertizing notwithstanding, the boot doesn't hold groceries, it holds feet.

But I digress. It's the simple rule of "group understood". The (group of individuals who comprise the thing we refer to by the shorthand) BBC are planning a new show. (The group who identify themselves as being a part of) Sony are introducing a new advert. There's no confusion when we say, "get me another beer." The missing "You" is understood. But where doth it stop? The world are waiting for clarity.

-iNova

As for the specific question of "Sony have announced", one can argue that
one is referring to a group that collectively has/have made a certain
announcement - similar in a way to "the police are warning...". You may
disagree with this interpretation, but there is at least some basis for
it.

Michael