K20D vs. A350

[philbarton]

At this moment Sony really has no camera that goes against the K20D
in that price bracket - the A700 is not selling that well, because
Sony cannot get people to move up from the A100.

This statement does not make sense. The A700 is a direct competitor
to the K20D no matter whether it's selling well or not.
--
-Julio
http://jmarcos.smugmug.com/

======

The Sony A700 has been out since Sep 2007, and was essentially targeted as an upgrade for A100 owners. It's price-competitive, but not the marketing hit that Sony wanted in order to attract NEW people to their mount. I think Pentax will experience the same thing - people willing to change mounts would look at the K200D rather than the K20D, and save a couple hundred $$$, or perhaps buy another lens. The K20D's competitive problem right now is the D300. not the A700, if lens mount is not the issue. Check Google Shopping and you will see pricing for the D300 above original list of $1800; while the K20D price is being discounted.

 

[philbarton]

I played a bit with the A350 at a Sony store, and here's my take:

• The live view implementation is fantastic, very fun to use with the

retractable screen. Great for waist-level shots. It focused fast
even in the dim-lit store.

• The viewfinder was very small, as I expected. But since the

liveview works quite well, it might be a decent compromise for some.

• I didn't like the ergonomics as much as the A200 or the A700; the

grip made my nails scrape the body.

I would try the cameras out, and if you like the Sony live view, I
would wait for the A300. Why go for the very-noisy 14 megapixel A350?
--
-Julio
http://jmarcos.smugmug.com/

-----------

What's interesting to me is how Sony will arrange the pricing of the 10 MP A300 against the 14 MP A350. One hundred bucks (both with lens) is not a major difference to a buyer.

http://www.photographybay.com/2008/01/07/sony-a300/

"The DSLR-A300 kit with a DT 18-70mm f3.5-5.6 standard zoom lens will ship in April for about $800. The DSLR-A350 camera body will be available in March for about $800, and the DSLR-A350 kit with a DT 18-70mm f3.5-5.6 3.9x zoom lens will be available for about $900 at the same time."

Very definitely, egonomics enter into it, and I would not buy any of these without trying them out.

 

[Roland Mabo]

• better choice of high quality lenses for the A350: CZ16-80 and even

a CZ16-105 which is ok if you know its limitations.

Are you claiming that the CZ 16-80 is of higher quality than Pentax 16-50 f/2.8?

Pentax has a wider selection of SDM lenses, Sony has a limited choice of SSM lenses.

No 4x or 5x zoom
from Pentax as always on lens starting at the wide end - you have to
use 3rd party lenses (the Sigma 17-70 for instance).

The Pentax 17-70 f/4 SDM will soon be available, if you live in Japan you can borrow one from Pentax. They have pre-production models out, so it is expected to ship in 1 - 2 months time.

The lens
offering of the Pentax is more limited: many fixed focal lengths, few
zooms. Here Sony has the edge.

I see it as an advantage - not a disadvantage - that Pentax has more fixed focals made for the APS-C sensor than Sony has. Here Pentax has the edge.
Pentax has always been very proud of it's fixed focals, and rightly so.

The current 14, 21, 31, 35, 40, 43, 50, 70, 77 and 100's are great lenses, with 55 f/1.4 and 30 and 15 coming soon.
--
Take care
R
http://www.flickr.com/photos/raphaelmabo

 

[philbarton]

Pentax has a wider selection of SDM lenses, Sony has a limited choice
of SSM lenses.

-----------

Both Pentax and Sony are playing catch-up to the majors in terms of motorized lenses. Pentax has indicated that the NEXT series will be ring-DSM, which is faster in mechanism than their current crop of SDM lenses which retrofit to their older DSLR's. That was a marketing decision - give up ultimate speed; but keep the fitment.

Sony is just announcing their new SSM lenses in addition to the older 2003's, and as body sales increase, I expect the line to broaden out by the September trade shows. Just as Pentax will have a problem getting people buying $800 cameras to buy $800-and-over motorized lenses, Sony may run into a similar problem without higher-priced bodies to go along with it. Since the ring-DSM lenses do not require a mechanical body interface, it should reduce the production cost of the body - same with putting VR (stabilization) right in the lens, rather than in effect a giant gyroscope in the body.

http://www.dyxum.com/lenses/lens_glossary.asp

"SSM lenses uses the nature of piezo-electric element, which changes shape when voltage is applied. Compared to conventional DC motors, the supersonic-wave motor has characteristics that fit the lens drive, such as producing high torque from slow rotation and providing quick start and stop responses. By employing this motor, the SSM lenses provide ultra-quiet, ultra-smooth and superior AF operation". SSM technology is providing fast, accurate and silent operation and it's Minolta equivalent to Canon USM technology.

At PMA 2003 Minolta announced two new lenses; a new lenses AF 300 F2.8 APO G D SSM (has replaced Minolta AF 300 F2.8 G APO HS) and a completely new design AF 70-200 F2.8 APO G (D) SSM (replacement for the Minolta AF 80-200 F2.8 G APO HS ). Sony did keep these lenses and introduced Sony variants; Sony AF 70-200 F2.8 G SSM and Sony AF 300 F2.8 G SSM

 

[jeanphilippe Goube]

You said :

The lens offering of the Pentax is more limited: many fixed focal lengths, few zooms. Here Sony has the edge.

I appreciate (and I think many of us also) to have the choice of (good) fixed focal lenghts as an alternative of zooms. It is the choice of Pentax to go on designing fixed focal lenses (they will release a 15 mm limited, a DA 55...) and I appreciate this. When I want to have the best picture, if I can I take my 31 limited or my FA 85, not my zooms.
I see that Sony also has a lot of fix-focal lenses (from Karl Zeiss)
Cheers

--
jpgoube

 

[jeanphilippe Goube]

from the list of lenses Pentax can be proud; it is a pity that it is discontinued
--
jpgoube

 

[Alfred Molon]

The way I see it, the A350 is crippleware. It could've been great,
but it's crippled. Poor Viewfinder, slow shot-to-shot, and image
quality that doesn't stand up to the lower MP A700 or even the 10mp
a200 by most accounts of people that own both.

The viewfinder of the A350 is indeed poor and the noise levels are one stop higher than those of the K20D, but otherwise the A350 has excellent resolution if you use a decent lens.
--

Alfred

 

[jimstonefreelance]

It all boils down to image quality, and there the K20D will win.

There is no such thing as a stop of difference with regard to anything from Sony; the pentax will blow it away, period.

I'd prefer to have a landscape camera be weather resistant.

It is easy to snag lenses for Pentax, forget it with Sony. The optical quality of Sony's lenses leaves a lot to be desired, unless you spend more for the lens than the camera cost. Clearly not worth it. To see my point, just hop on Craigslist and look for lenses there.
--
It's not what you spend, it's what you buy!

 

[Alfred Molon]

Are you claiming that the CZ 16-80 is of higher quality than Pentax
16-50 f/2.8?

No - I wasn't aware of the 16-50 (BTW, won't it be heavy with that F2.8 over the entire range?).

Pentax has a wider selection of SDM lenses, Sony has a limited choice
of SSM lenses.

Not sure what SDM and SSM means.

The Pentax 17-70 f/4 SDM will soon be available, if you live in Japan
you can borrow one from Pentax. They have pre-production models out,
so it is expected to ship in 1 - 2 months time.

That might be a bit late - perhaps I'll buy the camera in the next month. Not sure when the Pentax 17-70 will be here in Germany.

I see it as an advantage - not a disadvantage - that Pentax has more
fixed focals made for the APS-C sensor than Sony has. Here Pentax has
the edge.
Pentax has always been very proud of it's fixed focals, and rightly so.
The current 14, 21, 31, 35, 40, 43, 50, 70, 77 and 100's are great
lenses, with 55 f/1.4 and 30 and 15 coming soon.

I've never owned an DSLR and am using a Sony R1 now. Ideally I'd like to have one high quality zoom starting at 16mm or even shorter and extending to as much as possible, to avoid having to change the lenses in the field.
--

Alfred

 

[Alfred Molon]

It all boils down to image quality, and there the K20D will win.

There is no such thing as a stop of difference with regard to
anything from Sony; the pentax will blow it away, period.

We have to be a bit specific here. The reviews I've read mention this stop of difference in noise between the K20D and the A350.

Since I'll be shooting RAW anyway, camera JPEGs will not matter. The important thing is then the lens and it should be a zoom with as much range as possible. Here Sony has an edge, although the Sigma 17-70 is not too bad either.

I'd prefer to have a landscape camera be weather resistant.

I've never owned a weather resistent camera but managed to survive.

It is easy to snag lenses for Pentax, forget it with Sony. The
optical quality of Sony's lenses leaves a lot to be desired, unless
you spend more for the lens than the camera cost.

Indeed the CZ 16-80 costs as much as the A350 body.
--

Alfred

 

[omer_s]

Isn't there a Pentax / Tamron 18-250 lens that would help an "all in one " requirement ?

 

[Russell Evans]

No - I wasn't aware of the 16-50 (BTW, won't it be heavy with that
F2.8 over the entire range?).

19.9 oz. (565g) without hood; 21.2 oz. (600g) with hood

Not sure what SDM and SSM means.

In lens, motor driven, focus mechanism. SDM is Pentax marketing name, SSM is Sony's marketing name. These are usually quieter and quicker than a in body focus drive.

The Pentax 17-70 f/4 SDM will soon be available, if you live in Japan
you can borrow one from Pentax. They have pre-production models out,
so it is expected to ship in 1 - 2 months time.

That might be a bit late - perhaps I'll buy the camera in the next
month. Not sure when the Pentax 17-70 will be here in Germany.

The lens probably won't be offered with the camera, so I don't understand why it would be too late unless you are only looking for bundled systems.

Thank you
Russell

 

[Alfred Molon]

The lens probably won't be offered with the camera, so I don't
understand why it would be too late unless you are only looking for
bundled systems.

I have no lens at all - would have to buy the body and at least one lens. A bit hard to shoot with a body and no lens.
--

Alfred

 

[Jim Cockfield]

If you go Sony, I'd get the A300 instead of the A350.

Is there a reason you really need 14 Megapixels?

You'll get better overall image quality in most conditions with 10MP in an APS-C Sensor (better dynamic range, lower noise levels, a more pleasing tone curve with the A300, and more).

The A300 is already shipping.

If you really want Live View, I'd look at the A300 instead of the A350. If you don't need Live View, I'd look at the A200 or A700. Both have a better optical viewfinder compared to the A300 and A350.

--
JimC
------
http://www.pbase.com/jcockfield

 

[kathyk]

I don't think I saw this mentioned, but sorry if it's already been said -

The K20D will easily use the older M42/screwmount lenses, but the Sony (all the new Sony's except A700, and the discontinued A100) have to be used in manual mode only.
--
-Kathy

 

[nosnoop]

Ideally I'd like to have one high quality zoom starting at 16mm or even
shorter and extending to as much as possible, to avoid having to change
the lenses in the field.

Unfortunately, the two qualities you want here is contradictory. For high quality zoom, you should keep it to minimum zoom range like 3x. The higher the zoom, the more compromise is the quality.

So I don't know why you have a fixed mind set at 5x zoom. The DA* 16-50 is an excellent lens, if you want a high quality lens to make full use of the high quality sensor. The Sony 16-80 has quite high barrel distortion, vignetting and CA with so so quality construction for its price.

Coming from prosumer, you may have dismissed fixed focal length lenses right from get go. But try it out at a store, compare the image qualities and you may have a rethink about primes.

 

[philbarton]

I don't think I saw this mentioned, but sorry if it's already been
said -

The K20D will easily use the older M42/screwmount lenses, but the
Sony (all the new Sony's except A700, and the discontinued A100) have
to be used in manual mode only.
--
-Kathy

============

The M42 lenses will not have any diaphragm linkage activation by the PK DSLR's at all, and while the Tak's have an A-M switch for stopdown, many other M42 lenses do not. There's a focus-confirm adapter for the Canon DSLR body on EBay.

EBay 260227461743

If using a manual switch to operate the lens is not "manual mode", I don't know what is. There are compromises in using the M42 lenses, but for someone who can practice with them, they work very well.

Using a preset lens is even easier, as there's a large aperture ring to grab.

http://galactinus.net/vilva/retro/eos350d_volna-9.html

 

[kathyk]

What I mean is unlike on the Pentax digi bodies and on the A100 and A700, you cannot use Aperture mode for m42 lenses (this is the mode I prefer to shoot in, with the M42's).

You are right about the focus confirm too, without a special adapter you will not get that on non-Pentax bodies.

I don't think I saw this mentioned, but sorry if it's already been
said -

The K20D will easily use the older M42/screwmount lenses, but the
Sony (all the new Sony's except A700, and the discontinued A100) have
to be used in manual mode only.
--
-Kathy

============

The M42 lenses will not have any diaphragm linkage activation by the
PK DSLR's at all, and while the Tak's have an A-M switch for
stopdown, many other M42 lenses do not. There's a focus-confirm
adapter for the Canon DSLR body on EBay.

EBay 260227461743

If using a manual switch to operate the lens is not "manual mode", I
don't know what is. There are compromises in using the M42 lenses,
but for someone who can practice with them, they work very well.

Using a preset lens is even easier, as there's a large aperture ring
to grab.

http://galactinus.net/vilva/retro/eos350d_volna-9.html

 

[justin23]

I agree. From reading another of the OP posts they seem fixated by the zoom range.

Firstly for the OP just in case they don't know, a 5x zoom doesn't magnify by 5x.

This is a point and shoot term and doesn't apply to dSLR's. Sure 70mm provides a closer shot than 50mm.

Secondly if you seriously shot landscape and architecture you'd buy Pentax and get the DA12-24 f4 lens. Yes sometimes you'd need a longer lens but i reckon most people on here would agree if they shoot landscape they shoot much more in that range than they do past 50mm.

You are also talking about shootind low iso and seem worried about changing lenses. Maybe your ideal camera is not a dSLR. Maybe you should look at a superzoom camera.

I'm really struggling to understand your need to have a zoom that goes past 50mm. Then your use of the term quality, which tends to not go with longer zooms.

I'm pretty certain the DA*16-50 will beat any of the zooms you are looking at just because they have such a long zoom range which makes lens design harder.

Ideally I'd like to have one high quality zoom starting at 16mm or even
shorter and extending to as much as possible, to avoid having to change
the lenses in the field.

Unfortunately, the two qualities you want here is contradictory. For
high quality zoom, you should keep it to minimum zoom range like 3x.
The higher the zoom, the more compromise is the quality.

So I don't know why you have a fixed mind set at 5x zoom. The DA*
16-50 is an excellent lens, if you want a high quality lens to make
full use of the high quality sensor. The Sony 16-80 has quite high
barrel distortion, vignetting and CA with so so quality construction
for its price.

Coming from prosumer, you may have dismissed fixed focal length
lenses right from get go. But try it out at a store, compare the
image qualities and you may have a rethink about primes.

--
Justin
--------------------------------------------------------
The Blind Pig
http://www.jeber.com/Members/Justin/Gallery/
Photobucket
http://s107.photobucket.com/albums/m313/justin-23/

 

[photodog25]

Hi Alfred,

If you really want a wide-range zoom Nikon came out with a 16-85/3.5-5.6 zoom. Yes, it is slow, but the reports seem to indicate that it is sharp with low distortion. Have you thought about Nikon?

Honestly, I shoot landscapes and I wouldn't even consider shooting without a weather-sealed camera while on the trail. If the moisture doesn't eventually do your camera in, the dust will. Also, the Pentax primes are of very high quality, and reasonable in price.

Good luck in your search!

Nick

It all boils down to image quality, and there the K20D will win.

There is no such thing as a stop of difference with regard to
anything from Sony; the pentax will blow it away, period.

We have to be a bit specific here. The reviews I've read mention this
stop of difference in noise between the K20D and the A350.

Since I'll be shooting RAW anyway, camera JPEGs will not matter. The
important thing is then the lens and it should be a zoom with as much
range as possible. Here Sony has an edge, although the Sigma 17-70 is
not too bad either.

I'd prefer to have a landscape camera be weather resistant.

I've never owned a weather resistent camera but managed to survive.

It is easy to snag lenses for Pentax, forget it with Sony. The
optical quality of Sony's lenses leaves a lot to be desired, unless
you spend more for the lens than the camera cost.

Indeed the CZ 16-80 costs as much as the A350 body.
--

Alfred