Inconsistency in D200's noise performance?

[Photobug197965]

Anyone noticed this? There seem to be a range wider than any other Nikon cameras (D100, D70, D2x, etc.) about reported noise performance (especially at high ISO) of D200- be it a personal opinion or a more thorough review/comparison. Some said it's the same as D2x. Some found it to be significantly better than D100 (which should imply it's at least slightly better than D2x). Some found it worse than D70.

Unfortunately, my personal experience belongs to the last group. It's not the major reason, but one of the reasons that I returned my D200 and stayed with D70 (up until now). BTW, that D200 was among the first batch delieverd by RitzCamera.com in USA on 12/22.

My question is, does production D200's really have a wide variation on noise performance? I even know of a D200 user who returned original D200 due to soft and noisy images and got a replacement one that's much sharper and lower in noise. If this is true, it does explain why I was a bit disappointed with my copy of D200 while a lot of users here are happy with theirs.

No flame please and please don't respond if you can't respond in a leve-headed way. I'm simply asking a question and shared my experience and thoughts. It would actually be a good news if early batch does have big variation on noise performance and current or future batches will have much tighter tolerance. Then I'll be happy to reconsider D200- after my computer system is upgraded.

Photobug

 

[illyman]

If you look at the posts with D200 problems and there are many, the D200's are either in spec. and great for some customers or for many customers faulty. It's really fun to see so many buyers willing to pay this much for a camera and embellish having banding/noise problems and paying to return the cameras for repair. Not once but twice and then finally taking a store credit.

My recommendation is wait until there are plenty of D200's at your local camera store, take your personal CF card and test the camera in the store until you find a good one. Take the camera home and test it again and then return for replacement or full credit if it's not an acceptable quality level for yourself. Forget paying return shipping costs for defective new products at this price.

 

[Paul_U]

I tried to start a thread about same problem but since most of folks just sit here to flame about things they do not own - result set wasn't enough to make any suggestions.

As of my unit - after repair noise level is definetely higher than it was and i have no desire to part with my camera for 2 more weeks, just becouse I need it. But as of now - after that goddamn fix performance on any ISO higher than 100 is bad period.

Anyone noticed this? There seem to be a range wider than any other
Nikon cameras (D100, D70, D2x, etc.) about reported noise
performance (especially at high ISO) of D200- be it a personal
opinion or a more thorough review/comparison. Some said it's the
same as D2x. Some found it to be significantly better than D100
(which should imply it's at least slightly better than D2x). Some
found it worse than D70.

--
Best regards from UPVStudio Photography

 

[Photobug197965]

Well I preordered both D70 and D200, right after they were announced. So the D70 I'm using now and the D200 I used to own were both among the very first batch delivered in US. It was a good move all the way with D70 but slightly less so with D200. With D200, not all was Nikon's fault. Less than impressive noise and sharpness with the copy I had was only part of the reason I returned it. The other half was that I found my computer system not ready for big files from D200.

But anyway, I gained a lot of respect for D70 after that and have been happliy using it while assessing my next move. It still could be D200. But I would like to make sure I'll be getting one that's good.

Photobug

If you look at the posts with D200 problems and there are many, the
D200's are either in spec. and great for some customers or for many
customers faulty. It's really fun to see so many buyers willing to
pay this much for a camera and embellish having banding/noise
problems and paying to return the cameras for repair. Not once but
twice and then finally taking a store credit.

My recommendation is wait until there are plenty of D200's at your
local camera store, take your personal CF card and test the camera
in the store until you find a good one. Take the camera home and
test it again and then return for replacement or full credit if
it's not an acceptable quality level for yourself. Forget paying
return shipping costs for defective new products at this price.

 

[Robert Peters]

think the noise level may be greater than my D70. But I sort of expected that because of the photosite size coupled with the fact that it costs a lot less than a D2X.

Bob Peters

 

[Photobug197965]

What was your D200 repair for? Banding?

Then your experience gives me a hunch that noise of D200 may be very sensitive to various adjustments and settings from the factory or repair shop and this causes variations we see.

I do hope Nikon finds a way to optimize all these and give us consistently good D200 from now (assuming production variation does exists, which is the main question I want answered by starting this thread).

Photobug

As of my unit - after repair noise level is definetely higher than
it was and i have no desire to part with my camera for 2 more
weeks, just becouse I need it. But as of now - after that goddamn
fix performance on any ISO higher than 100 is bad period.

Anyone noticed this? There seem to be a range wider than any other
Nikon cameras (D100, D70, D2x, etc.) about reported noise
performance (especially at high ISO) of D200- be it a personal
opinion or a more thorough review/comparison. Some said it's the
same as D2x. Some found it to be significantly better than D100
(which should imply it's at least slightly better than D2x). Some
found it worse than D70.

--
Best regards from UPVStudio Photography

 

[Photobug197965]

Thanks for chipping in!

However, in a few controlled shots I did, D200's image appeared slightly noisy even after it resized to the same resolution as D70's. This means that noise per unit area on sensor can be higher on my copy of D200. This is not what I expected as D70 has a much lower fill factor due to interline architecture (to allow electronic shutter). I was expecting lower noise per sensor area with D200 due to advance of technology and higher fill factor.

If the one I have and some out there are lemons, then it makes some sense to me. I don't know yet and hope to have a better idea after this thread.

Photobug

think the noise level may be greater than my D70. But I sort of
expected that because of the photosite size coupled with the fact
that it costs a lot less than a D2X.

Bob Peters

 

[Hans Giersberg]

--
D200 - The Best $1600 I Ever Spent On Photo Gear

Web Site - http://www.hgiersberg.com/

 

[Man-Fai Wong]

I didn't do any extensive comparisons, but I find my D200 to be no noisier than my D70 at the pixel level. In fact, it might actually be cleaner at

Honestly, I think you just had a bad unit since yours also exposed substantially darker than your D70, IIRC.

Man

Anyone noticed this? There seem to be a range wider than any other
Nikon cameras (D100, D70, D2x, etc.) about reported noise
performance (especially at high ISO) of D200- be it a personal
opinion or a more thorough review/comparison. Some said it's the
same as D2x. Some found it to be significantly better than D100
(which should imply it's at least slightly better than D2x). Some
found it worse than D70.

Unfortunately, my personal experience belongs to the last group.
It's not the major reason, but one of the reasons that I returned
my D200 and stayed with D70 (up until now). BTW, that D200 was
among the first batch delieverd by RitzCamera.com in USA on 12/22.

My question is, does production D200's really have a wide variation
on noise performance? I even know of a D200 user who returned
original D200 due to soft and noisy images and got a replacement
one that's much sharper and lower in noise. If this is true, it
does explain why I was a bit disappointed with my copy of D200
while a lot of users here are happy with theirs.

No flame please and please don't respond if you can't respond in a
leve-headed way. I'm simply asking a question and shared my
experience and thoughts. It would actually be a good news if early
batch does have big variation on noise performance and current or
future batches will have much tighter tolerance. Then I'll be happy
to reconsider D200- after my computer system is upgraded.

Photobug

--



Just another amateur learning to paint w/ 'the light of the world.' (John 8:12)
Motto for the season: 'Cameras are for making photos, not war...'
See my profile for more + some basic photog resources.
As usual, YMMV + caveat emptor.
Contact me at [email protected]
Indulge my fancies at http://www.pbase.com/mandnwong

 

[Photobug197965]

You have good memory! Yes that D200 exposed about 0.7EV darker than D70 with manually set WB (Incand and Daylight tried), when the same ISO, shutter, and aperture were selected.

However, back then after you suggested the thingy about analog channel equalization, I tried WB preset with both cameras. The exposure were about equal under such condition.

Maybe one culprit is accuracy in analog channel equalization. Well I don't want to speculate too far and only hope this is a non-issue with D200 now.

Photobug

Honestly, I think you just had a bad unit since yours also exposed
substantially darker than your D70, IIRC.

Man

Anyone noticed this? There seem to be a range wider than any other
Nikon cameras (D100, D70, D2x, etc.) about reported noise
performance (especially at high ISO) of D200- be it a personal
opinion or a more thorough review/comparison. Some said it's the
same as D2x. Some found it to be significantly better than D100
(which should imply it's at least slightly better than D2x). Some
found it worse than D70.

Unfortunately, my personal experience belongs to the last group.
It's not the major reason, but one of the reasons that I returned
my D200 and stayed with D70 (up until now). BTW, that D200 was
among the first batch delieverd by RitzCamera.com in USA on 12/22.

My question is, does production D200's really have a wide variation
on noise performance? I even know of a D200 user who returned
original D200 due to soft and noisy images and got a replacement
one that's much sharper and lower in noise. If this is true, it
does explain why I was a bit disappointed with my copy of D200
while a lot of users here are happy with theirs.

No flame please and please don't respond if you can't respond in a
leve-headed way. I'm simply asking a question and shared my
experience and thoughts. It would actually be a good news if early
batch does have big variation on noise performance and current or
future batches will have much tighter tolerance. Then I'll be happy
to reconsider D200- after my computer system is upgraded.

Photobug

--



Just another amateur learning to paint w/ 'the light of the world.'
(John 8:12)
Motto for the season: 'Cameras are for making photos, not war...'
See my profile for more + some basic photog resources.
As usual, YMMV + caveat emptor.
Contact me at [email protected]
Indulge my fancies at http://www.pbase.com/mandnwong

 

[Paul_U]

I do not get it.

Just close the lens cap, set to M mode, take a series of shots on 1/60 shutter speed, open NEF in ACR with all parameters set to 0, then run BLur-Average and you get uniform noise level of your camera.

After that we will see for sure what noise it is and no more guessing will be needed.

I didn't do any extensive comparisons, but I find my D200 to be no
noisier than my D70 at the pixel level. In fact, it might actually
be cleaner at

Honestly, I think you just had a bad unit since yours also exposed
substantially darker than your D70, IIRC.

--
Best regards from UPVStudio Photography

 

[Julia Borg]

Just close the lens cap, set to M mode, take a series of shots on
1/60 shutter speed, open NEF in ACR with all parameters set to 0,
then run BLur-Average and you get uniform noise level of your
camera.

the result will depend on how tight the cap is, how much light is around, how much light entered through viewfinder, ambient temperature, and temperature of electronics inside. It will also depend on what actual ISO is your camera sensor calibrated.

--
Julia

 

[Bill Janes]

I do not get it.

Just close the lens cap, set to M mode, take a series of shots on
1/60 shutter speed, open NEF in ACR with all parameters set to 0,
then run BLur-Average and you get uniform noise level of your
camera.

After that we will see for sure what noise it is and no more
guessing will be needed.

Dark current is only one component of the total noise and along with read noise is only a mihor component of noise with most normal photographic scenes. In normal practice, photon noise is the major component and it is related to pixel size, fill factor, and quantum efficiency of the sensor. For more details see this article by Roger Clark, a space scientist and avid photographer:

http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/evaluation-1d2/index.html
--
Bill Janes

 

[Hans Giersberg]

Bjorn's review indicates D200 noise is less than D2X. That's good enough for me.

--
D200 - The Best $1600 I Ever Spent On Photo Gear

Web Site - http://www.hgiersberg.com/

 

[Photobug197965]

I compared with D200's high ISO NR turned off!

To me this is the only fair thing to do. Otherwise, with NR on I often found the sharpness and resolution being reduced to a level that D200 didn't resolve any more info than the 6Mp weak AA filter D70.

I wonder if some copies of D200 that were found to be less noisy than D70 were the results of NR.

And the ISO I compared at was mostly 1600- the one I'll use the most often for shooting indoor activities or performance.

Photobug

 

[Photobug197965]

I understand. But isn't high ISO noise one of the biggest complaint about D2x?

I want D200 to at least have the same noise per pixel as D70 at ISO 1600 without NR . The copy of D200 I had was also softer than D70. So in order to be not too noisy with a stronger USM to retain similar sharpness, I need low noise.

There seems to be variation on image softness too. But it's not my concern here.

Bjorn's review indicates D200 noise is less than D2X. That's good
enough for me.

--
D200 - The Best $1600 I Ever Spent On Photo Gear

Web Site - http://www.hgiersberg.com/

 

[Hans Giersberg]

I don't know why you expect D200 noise to be comparable to the D70. It's a 10 MP DX sensor and the D70S is a 6 MP DX sensor. Photosite size does matter. I imagine noise, in order from lowest to highest, is D2HS, D50, D70S, D200, and D2X. Amazingly, that follows the photosite size. All I'm saying is that D200 noise is about where you'd expect it to be for a 10 MP DX sensor. Not worse, not better. I also have a D2X, so for me the D200 is my low noise camera. For a D70S owner, it would be reversed.

--
D200 - The Best $1600 I Ever Spent On Photo Gear

Web Site - http://www.hgiersberg.com/

 

[Photobug197965]

Well let me revise my criteria a bit... I can actually tolerate D200 to have slightly more noise per pixel than D70. But I don't want the image I take with D200, when resized to 6Mp, still have more noise than D70. Under such situation, sensor size is not a factor. But in a few controlled tests I did, my copy of D200 was noisier.

BTW, "high ISO NR" was turned off on D200.

I don't know why you expect D200 noise to be comparable to the D70.
It's a 10 MP DX sensor and the D70S is a 6 MP DX sensor. Photosite
size does matter. I imagine noise, in order from lowest to highest,
is D2HS, D50, D70S, D200, and D2X. Amazingly, that follows the
photosite size. All I'm saying is that D200 noise is about where
you'd expect it to be for a 10 MP DX sensor. Not worse, not better.
I also have a D2X, so for me the D200 is my low noise camera. For a
D70S owner, it would be reversed.

--
D200 - The Best $1600 I Ever Spent On Photo Gear

Web Site - http://www.hgiersberg.com/

 

[Steve Bingham]

Under identical conditions and lens I tested the D50, D70, D200, and D2x. Before the D200, the D50 ruled. Now the D200 lies somewhere between the D50 and D2x and better than the D70 at ISO 1600. (Kelvin 3400 interior flood, Nikon 17-35, f8, tripod)

Simply one test by one person. In summary, D50, D200, D2x, D70. All small increases. All shot raw. Still surprised how well the D50 did.
--
Steve Bingham
http://www.dustylens.com

 

[Hans Giersberg]

Just because you want the D200 noise to be no worse than the D70 isn't going to make it so. It has smaller photosites. Physics is physics. The D200 yields very low noise images up to ISO 800, and acceptable noise at higher ISOs. Not as low as the D70, but still very low. And better than my D2X.

It's a tradeoff. I wanted a small body for times when a D2X was a bit much. I considered the D70S and the D200. I opted for the D200, even tho I expected the noise to be a little worse, because I wanted the higher MP, I wanted the faster shooting rate, I wanted the much better viewfinder, I wanted the much better build quality, I wanted weather sealing. To get all those things, I accepted slightly higher noise. Noise which I don't see in my prints, and noise I don't see on my downsampled web site images.

If you're going to spend all your time pixel peeping at 100%, you're never going to be satisfied. But the good thing is that these things don't actually matter in the real world of prints and web images, which is how most of us use our photos. I don't know too many people who show of their photos by pulling them up on screen and zooming in to 100%

--
D200 - The Best $1600 I Ever Spent On Photo Gear

Web Site - http://www.hgiersberg.com/