HX5 HDR oddities

chupame

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When I took these 3 shots to see how good HDR would work out, I noticed that the HDR mode takes brilliance and contrast away.

I love that blue sky in HDR mode but the little stone wall on the left, what happened to the contrast?

IAuto



P mode



HDR



I noticed similar behavior in other comparison shots but I have a certain place I will test in a few days what is really a pickle to expose right and then I shall make my final verdict. For now I rater stay with IAuto what just switches to backlight and enhances the shadows a bit.

more and bigger sizes @ at my blog
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http://hx5v.blogspot.com/
 
I think you might find the biggest benefit for your HDR is where you have both deep shadows and bright highlights. You can generally find those situations inside of buildings which have large exterior windows. A church interior is a prime example as in this example.



And a tripod will very much help your camera out.

Dave
 
That is a beautiful example of what HDR can do.
I think you might find the biggest benefit for your HDR is where you have both deep shadows and bright highlights. You can generally find those situations inside of buildings which have large exterior windows. A church interior is a prime example as in this example.
And a tripod will very much help your camera out.

Dave
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Frank B
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Frank is right. The internal process of the cam is a software adjustment to the image. As with most software adjustments, you regularly are going to have trade-offs that you have to judge whether they are worth what you are trying to achieve. You have a similar problem with noise reduction versus smearing of details, for example.

You can see this loss of contrast effect in your photo processing software as you mess with levels. What you actually are missing in your particular image in the stone wall is the mid-tone contrast, which can be adjusted in software. However, you want to be sure to tailor your adjustments to specific areas, because you don't want to affect the whole image; otherwise, you will get a surreal result and loose what you originally were trying to gain).
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Jerry (Gerald L. Stevens)

 
I've mentioned this a lot in HDR threads here and in the DSLR forum...it is so unfortunate that Sony doesn't include instructions for using HDR mode.

HDR mode takes two frames - the first frame is metered as you set it when you half-press the shutter - so that's the one you want to meter for the brightest points in the photo - the second shot will ALWAYS expose for shadows, meaning a longer shutter speed than the first shot.

If you meter normally, like in your sample above, you get the buildings exposed in shot 1, with the sky blown out a bit...and then the second shot takes away any remaining shadows and contrast, but does nothing to help the sky. The end result is a blown out shot with no contrast.

If you meter for the highlights or sky, the second shot will 'fill' the silhouette or shadow area, and you'll get the result you're looking for.

Now I do HDR in camera with my A550 DSLR, which offers control over metering areas and mode, and the level of HDR intensity and stops...the HX5 version is strictly auto, and from what I've been told, will default to wide metering only. Some have noted this makes it hard to meter off of a highlight only - so my suggestion would be to judge based on what you see on screen - try pointing towards the highlights until they look properly exposed - if the highlight area is too fine for the wide metering to pick it up, simply dial in some '-' EV until it looks right. Then let the HDR 2nd frame fix the shadows with the longer shutter speed shot.

Hope that helps. I use in-camera HDR often, and have gotten quite familiar with it. I have found that Sony didn't mention the exposing for highlights, and most users and even reviewers were unaware of this fact...so it's been my mission of late to try to help everyone find this out!

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Justin
galleries: http://www.pbase.com/zackiedawg
 
As I generally like non-HDR looking HDR (if that makes sense!), I rarely push for that full fantasy look that many HDR shots go for. The in-camera HDR is quite useful, because I can meter the highlights, and get just the right amount of fill in difficult lighting situations without going into the fake look. It helps having user-selectable modes on the DSLR, but I could make do with the P&S version too - samples I've seen that were reshot by metering highlights have worked just as advertised.

Here's a quick selection of in-camera HDR shots I've taken with the A550 - most of which weren't going for any fantasy appearance, but just dealing with unbelievably harsh afternoon sunlight, deep shadows, or hard contrast situations:



















As you can see, I often just use HDR mode with normal landscape, architecture, and scenic shots, handheld...I don't go for the super-stacked HDR comic book look - nothing against it, it just isn't my thing.

All of these would have suffered horribly crushed shadows or badly blown highlights...or would have to be underexposed a bunch and brought up in post, or used extreme DRO settings, both of which often introduce noise in shadow areas or lose contrast. Maybe with a lot of processing work, I could have achieved the same - but with in-camera HDR, no processing needed - just set it right in camera, and go.

I do wish my TX1 had HDR too...the twilight mode is brilliant, and HDR is fantastic on the DSLR. Even without the user controls, in-camera HDR can be an incredibly useful tool.

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Justin
galleries: http://www.pbase.com/zackiedawg
 
The OP's observation of the effect of so-called "HDR" processing is not surprising.

The term "HDR" can be misleading IMO. Especially for people familiar with audio processing (where the phrase "high dynamic range" frequently refers to the end product, and not to the captured "scene".

Pardon me for going into this, but I think it's very relevant to photography and HDR processing.

In audio, when we speak of high dynamic range, we often think of presenting a high dynamic range in the final presentation. For a truly realistic presentation of, say, a symphony, we must capture a wide dynamic range in the recording, and then preserve those dynamics all the way through to your ears on playback.

This is done by avoiding any sort of compression or by using a complimentary expansion of the compressed information at the time of playback so that the original dynamics are preserved.

This is why people often dislike what they hear on radio broadcasts where things are frequently compressed heavily in order to "squeeze" the original dynamic range of the concert or performance down in order to keep the soft parts from being so soft and the loud parts from being too loud. The worst examples are often "pop" radio broadcasts or the commercials because the goal for the broadcaster is to virtually eliminate any dynamics and thus, make their station or commercial be the loudest (on average) that it can possibly be.

So in audio, compression is looked upon with disdain by "audiophiles" who prefer that the original DR of the captured performance be maintained.

But maintaining the full DR of a symphony is not practical for many playback situations. For example, in a car, the ambient road noise may well be around 70dB. If you try to add the full DR of a symphony to that, you have to make the softest parts be at least 70dB and then go upwards from there. That means that the loudest passages would blow your eardrums out. So for auto listening, some compression is often required and welcome.

The same problem exists for our photos. The possible optical dynamic range of our beautiful world is enormous. The difference between the bright areas and dark areas in a scene can be huge. But the possible dynamic range of even the best photo printing technology is quite limited by comparison. And our video displays (despite what the advertisers like to claim) are also very limited.

And, of course, our cameras' abilities to capture a wide dynamic range are also limited.

Sure, things get better all the time, but the fact still remains that we cannot capture, or much less - display, a very wide dynamic range in our final presentations.

--- on to part 2 ---

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Jim H.
 
So the secret of photography is now, and always has been, to SELECT the "slice" of the available dynamic range that we, as the photographer, choose to select, and then make our print or final web-image based on the limitations of the medium.

So-called HDR processing is actually the process of capturing a wider than normal range of brightnesses (the HDR) and then compressing that wider range of brightnesses down into a smaller DR. I'd prefer that "HDR" was called "CDR" for compressed dynamic range. I think it would be less misleading. But that's just semantics, I guess.

In audio, people might say that the result of "HDR" processing was was "dull, lifeless, lacking the fire and emotion of the original performance."

And the same is often true of HDR photos. They're compressed. They can lack a lot of the original emotion and feeling of the scene.

Used properly, they can be very useful and make excellent photos, though. But the OP's observation of how the dynamics of the rock wall were muted is dead on.

While HDR is a great tool, and I'm pretty impressed with what this camera's built-in processing does, it's also true that the final product can be "dull-looking" or seem artificial just as with any "HDR" processing.

We have to use it with discretion and understand exactly what we're getting and what we're trading away. We don't want all of our photos to look the way a TV commercial sounds.

One thing I've noticed is that when processing RAW files, I frequently do the exact opposite of "HDR" processing. I actually move the black point upwards and sometimes I pull the white point down. This has the effect of throwing away a lot of the captured dynamic range and expanding the resulting smaller "slice" of the captured DR and stretching it outwards to fit the final DR of the finished product. In many cases, this produces a much more "dramatic" look to the shot with better contrast and saturation.

"HDR" processing does the exact opposite by smashing the DR of the original scene downwards. We end up with low contrast and often, a muted, foggy look to the image.

So we need to be aware of what's really going on when we use so-called "HDR" processing. Frequently, it's not appropriate.

Often, it's better to go the other way and select a smaller slice of the original scene's dynamic range and map that smaller "slice" of DR to the output file.

And this is what photographers have been doing since photography was invented. That's a large part of what "exposure" is all about. We consciously select the slice of the scene's DR that we wish to capture when we choose the exposure settings while shooting. Then later, we might select an even smaller slice from that capture and then "map it" to our print when we make that print.

I'm not knocking "HDR". But I do think people need to realize what it is and think about whether they want to smash the whole DR of a scene down into a print OR if it might be better to select a smaller slice of that DR and map it to the print without compression - or even take a smaller "slice" and expand it.

Often, choosing that slice of DR is as big a part of photographic composition as choosing the shooting position, camera aim, and focal length.

I often think that "HDR" is trying to relieve the photographer of the chore of setting exposure. But the tradeoff is that because "HDR" does nothing to increase the DR of our "playback" systems, we're stuck with a compressed image.

Sometimes that's great. Other times it's dull, lifeless, muddy-looking, etc.

And check out the posts above by some people who have obviously mastered the use of this camera's HDR feature. I'm liking what I see in a lot of those images. So it shows that there is a place for HDR if we can control it well.

Sorry for the length of this post.
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Jim H.
 
That's very useful, indeed.

And your examples are excellent.

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Jim H.
 
I love that blue sky in HDR mode but the little stone wall on the left, what happened to the contrast?

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http://hx5v.blogspot.com/
HDR does exactly that: lowers or compresses the tonal range. The Sony method of 2 shots is not the best way to do this, I would prefer at least 3 images, but it's a good compromise for a hand held camera. Nonetheless, that doesn't mean you have to end up with a flat image. I believe all HDR should be flat in the initial mapping stage in order to preserve the maximum detail across the available tonal range, but after that, you have to apply levels or curves to the image to get the desired contrast, that's what everybody does. The key word here is mapping. Sony does the mapping with only 2 images, and then (maybe) fails to apply contrast to the final jpg. I agree with you, this process can give you mix results.

I don't know why Sony doesn't use the same 6 rapid exposures it uses with anti-blur-motion (ABM) or hand-held-twighlight (HHT) for HDR, maybe it would need a lot of time to process the final mapped HDR image, and that, for these type of cameras (or public) would be unacceptable. It would be great if they include an "expert" mode in the next series of cameras, where you could have the option of 3 and 5 exposures for the HDR.
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E R A
Keep Shooting! :)
 
Yeah. I know. It's not going to happen.

But as you point out, if the camera shot more frames, the mapping could be done in a smoother way, I suppose.

And, of course, if it allowed us to have access to all of the frames, then we'd have "exposure bracketing" and could play with the results later ourselves.

At some point, I suppose we get away from what a "P&S" is designed to do, but it's always somewhat frustrating to think of features we'd like which are only lacking because the firmware doesn't allow it.

Like you say. An "expert" mode that allowed us to trade speed for more flexibility would be something a lot of people might use. Then again, their marketing research probably tells them that it's only the few who would experiment with it.

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Jim H.
 
yes I remembered that you said that, and one of my first HDR tests with the HX5 was normal exposure to maximal bright area exposure for metering and then comparing.
Since then this is how I shot HDR when ever it is possible.

Guys, thank you a lot for the input, and normally when I shoot HDR it is -2 0 and +2 and then up into the software, BUT the HX5 sadly only has -1 to +1 bracketing, so just 2 stops compared to 4, so camera HDR should be the same or better.

on another note, loved the Tomorrowland shots, at twilight on the people mover it is just out of this world









(both shot 8 and 9 years ago with 1Mp cameras)

OK back to HDR, if you guys could just nip over to this post:
http://hx5v.blogspot.com/2010/05/sony-hx5-hdr-mode.html#more

I have 2 more samples in bigger size there and are still not happy with the outcome.
HDR was metered to the brightest area when possible.
Any comment how to improve without PP is appreciated.

I also have a series of body painting shots entirely done in HDR but they contain bare breasts and uncovered nipples (we do not discriminate women here in Europa) for the ones who care how the HX5 does HDR in bright daylight.

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http://hx5v.blogspot.com/
 
I took the freedom to unsharp mask your photo with a 20 pixel radius and 30% strength (no threshold).





As you see it has more contrast now and still captures the dynamic range.

If you try this on a full resolution picture, the 30% strength is the same but the radius must be scaled with the picture size. The example is 400 px wide. If the original is 4000 px wide, the radius would be around 200 pixels.
 
sure pp is mostly an improvement, but i just posted straight out of the camera to easy compare, but hey the dynamic from the little wall is still fone and the top still looks like the side.
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http://hx5v.blogspot.com/
 
Lots of insightful comments in this thread. Thanks everyone for sharing. I thought for sure Zackiedog would jump in and help out here, as often, and he did, and JimH, thanks for your comments as well. Admittedly a long post but a somewhat difficult concept to grasp, so takes time to explain.

I plan to bookmark this thread for reference for HDR questions in the future. Thanks guys.
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Jerry (Gerald L. Stevens)

 
I have been reading this and other threads about the hx5 with great interest having just bought the camera. The hdr has been causing some problems as the advice I have read is that you need to set the exposure to the brightest area and then take the shot. This in the main is not the area I wish to focus on, is there an ev lock or siimilar to achieve this?

Thank you
 
The hdr has been causing some problems as the advice I have read is that you need to set the exposure to the brightest area and then take the shot. This in the main is not the area I wish to focus on, is there an ev lock or siimilar to achieve this?
Good question. I am fixing to order the HX5 and this has bothered me too. From perusing the manual, I see no way to focus on the "dark" section and meter for the "light" section. I guess I will cope as follows: Focus on relevant (dark) subject and dial in -1 or -2 EV (OK I just checked and EV can not be tweaked in HDR mode :-() so maybe focus on a "tree branch in the light sky". I just noticed that face detection can be used in HDR mode so maybe we must carry a cardboard face around with us to put in sky section of the picture :-). Hopefully, there is a better way that someone will post.

Bert
 
It seems that the HX5 does not allow you to change focus points while in HDR mode? How about HHT mode? I don't have the camera, so I can't tell for sure.

Typically, with my TX5 in HHT mode, for example, I'll meter the scene in the default wide metering mode, but will choose a single focus point where I want it, which you can do by touching that point on the LCD. That allows you to have the focus point be way down at the bottom of the screen, while pointing upwards mostly at a sky, for example, and then half-press shutter to lock exposure and focus, recompose, and shoot.

I presume this will work with the TX series cams as well in HDR mode - in the TX5 guide it lists the modes in which touch-screen focus points aren't available, and HHT or HDR are not on the list...so presumably it would work.

Without this, it may take some experimentation on HX5 users' parts to get the focus and exposure right. That would be unfortunate, as it would make it harder to get the mode right. You can try to find something smaller that is at the right focal distance against the brighter background you're trying to meter...but if the focus point and the background are too far apart, it could be tough.

Can anyone confirm if you maintain ANY focus mode or metering mode control on the HX5 in HDR mode?

--
Justin
galleries: http://www.pbase.com/zackiedawg
 

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