horizontal lines across image ??? using FLASH

Chris Dera

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HI ALL

so i was shooting some portraits yesterday for the first time.

I used a flash on wireless mode and HSS so i can get a fast shutter speed.

And what i notice are those horizontal lines on all of my images?

Why is That?

Please Help



6d351ade93754621b3f6aa15c0ca392b.jpg.png
 
Once again ... how do you get MORE working distance with less power ???
What he says is that you need less power than full.

Inverse square law - if you need full power at 1m then but you need only 1/4 power you get 2m, etc ...
But for sun-light fill-flash you usually are going to need "full" power.
No, you don't.

For me fill flash is usually 1/8 or 1/4 power. Just enough to get the shadows from out underneath the eyes. Every studio photographer knows that the fill light is always less than the key light. Never equal or greater.

I know that you know this.That is why I know that you are purposely being misleading.
Thats why he needed an (originally) GN-300 to reach (only) 8' @ f/1.4 -- because it's effective power was so severely reduced via HSS.

I could get 15+' (w/ GN-48 @ f/2.8) because leaf-shutters don't (effectively) "reduce" the original GN, (until SS is shorter than flash-duration).

So w/ leaf-shutter, I still had an effective GN (48) -- HIGHER than he had w/ GN-300 after FP/HSS "reduction", (to what appeared to be about GN-11).
Tedolph
I've been in situation shooting at the beach where the sun is behind the model. In that case the sun is illuminating the background, and the flash is the main light for the model. In that situation, I want the power of the flash to be similar to the sun, not a few stops down.

Not everyone is in the same situation.
Yes, that is one. The other one is sort of a passing fad with wedding photographers where they are outdoors but they still want to over-power the Sun.

It looks a little weird.

Tedolph
Funny you mention this. I made me remember some fun shots at the beach with my daughter. Turns out hss did over power the sun by a good margin in some that I took. Its a "weird" look for sure. I was just playing around... but even at 1/2500 at with hss I was over powering the sun which back lit my scene. Yes, it was fairly close 24-85mm normal views... But still very possible, despite being "impossible". I think I was playing around with a cheap Yongnou flash when I took them.
 
Once again ... how do you get MORE working distance with less power ???
What he says is that you need less power than full.

Inverse square law - if you need full power at 1m then but you need only 1/4 power you get 2m, etc ...
But for sun-light fill-flash you usually are going to need "full" power.
No, you don't.

For me fill flash is usually 1/8 or 1/4 power.
Teddy, If you are starting with a base GN-48, (or even 300 if you want), WHAT is the final GN @ 1/8-power ???

Using that (final-reduced) GN, what is the max (1:1) distance possible w/ normal f/3.5 kit lens ???

OOPS ... can't use f/3.5 in SUN-light because "Sunny-16 Rule" dictates f/11 @ 1/250, (ISO-100). So NOW ... what is your max distance @ f/11 ???
Just enough to get the shadows from out underneath the eyes. Every studio photographer knows that the fill light is always less than the key light. Never equal or greater.
I suggest it needs to be within 1-stop, (but 2-stops at most), and do agree that could double the 1:1 ratio max-distance. (I suggest 3-stops under would be insignificant.)

Note: We are talking SUN-light, (where "Sunny-16 Rule" = f/11), not "studio", (w/ "0" ambient light compared to SUN-light), fill-flash where you indeed need HSS if you want fast f/stop for limited DOF w/ FP-shutter -- unless you have "leaf" shutter.

So I CHALLENGE you to do the calculation of the MAX-range, (which is the essence of what we are discussing).

I already CHALLENGED you to prove your earlier point ... I doubt you can prove this one either. You just want to "talk", (against me), when I show EXAMPLES to PROVE everything I say. Yet I have never seen one-single example from you.
I know that you know this.That is why I know that you are purposely being misleading.
I know I can PROVE that I know a lot about "fill" flash, I have been doing SUN-light fill-flash since 1969. (bulb flash since 1959, electronic strobe since 1964, but not one powerful enough for SUN-light fill until '69 -- albeit w/ Leica M3 w/ FP shutter & 1/50s sync-speed)
Thats why he needed an (originally) GN-300 to reach (only) 8' @ f/1.4 -- because it's effective power was so severely reduced via HSS.

I could get 15+' (w/ GN-48 @ f/2.8) because leaf-shutters don't (effectively) "reduce" the original GN, (until SS is shorter than flash-duration).

So w/ leaf-shutter, I still had an effective GN (48) -- HIGHER than he had w/ GN-300 after FP/HSS "reduction", (to what appeared to be about GN-11).
Tedolph
 
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Once again ... how do you get MORE working distance with less power ???
What he says is that you need less power than full.

Inverse square law - if you need full power at 1m then but you need only 1/4 power you get 2m, etc ...
But for sun-light fill-flash you usually are going to need "full" power.
No, you don't.

For me fill flash is usually 1/8 or 1/4 power. Just enough to get the shadows from out underneath the eyes. Every studio photographer knows that the fill light is always less than the key light. Never equal or greater.

I know that you know this.That is why I know that you are purposely being misleading.
Thats why he needed an (originally) GN-300 to reach (only) 8' @ f/1.4 -- because it's effective power was so severely reduced via HSS.

I could get 15+' (w/ GN-48 @ f/2.8) because leaf-shutters don't (effectively) "reduce" the original GN, (until SS is shorter than flash-duration).

So w/ leaf-shutter, I still had an effective GN (48) -- HIGHER than he had w/ GN-300 after FP/HSS "reduction", (to what appeared to be about GN-11).
Tedolph
I've been in situation shooting at the beach where the sun is behind the model. In that case the sun is illuminating the background, and the flash is the main light for the model.
And that is indeed exactly the situation I am discussing that is indeed a very COMMON PROBLEM for BEGINNERS. This is evidenced by the many threads here where they have asked how they can get proper exposure for the, (shadowed), face w/out blowing/saturating the background.

That is simply less of a problem w/ leaf-shutter w/out the limitations of FP flash-sync, (even w/ HSS).
In that situation, I want the power of the flash to be similar to the sun, not a few stops down.
And I agree with Teddy that that 1-stop under can "work", (to "lessen" shadows). But you are also correct in that the exact matching-power of ambient can often be best.

But some like the "look" w/ the subject 1-2 stops above ambient).

ANY of those combinations is easily possible to a longer usable/effective range w/ leaf-shutter's native higher sync-speed.
Not everyone is in the same situation.
Leaf-shutter simply allows more options in more situations, with fewer limitations.
 
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Once again ... how do you get MORE working distance with less power ???
What he says is that you need less power than full.

Inverse square law - if you need full power at 1m then but you need only 1/4 power you get 2m, etc ...
But for sun-light fill-flash you usually are going to need "full" power.
No, you don't.

For me fill flash is usually 1/8 or 1/4 power. Just enough to get the shadows from out underneath the eyes. Every studio photographer knows that the fill light is always less than the key light. Never equal or greater.

I know that you know this.That is why I know that you are purposely being misleading.
Thats why he needed an (originally) GN-300 to reach (only) 8' @ f/1.4 -- because it's effective power was so severely reduced via HSS.

I could get 15+' (w/ GN-48 @ f/2.8) because leaf-shutters don't (effectively) "reduce" the original GN, (until SS is shorter than flash-duration).

So w/ leaf-shutter, I still had an effective GN (48) -- HIGHER than he had w/ GN-300 after FP/HSS "reduction", (to what appeared to be about GN-11).
Tedolph
I've been in situation shooting at the beach where the sun is behind the model. In that case the sun is illuminating the background, and the flash is the main light for the model. In that situation, I want the power of the flash to be similar to the sun, not a few stops down.

Not everyone is in the same situation.
Yes, that is one. The other one is sort of a passing fad with wedding photographers where they are outdoors but they still want to over-power the Sun.

It looks a little weird.
What is weird to some, is desirable/creative to others.

Note that there are two ways to "isolate" a subject from a (busy) background. One is DOF bokeh using large-sensor/fast-lens. I suggest that both (large-sensor & fast-lens), can be EXPENSIVE.

But another can be with a "darker" background, and can be fast/easy and lower-cost with an ALTERNATIVE choice, (of bridge camera w/ leaf-shutter).

But you said "weird" above ... do you have a "weird/problem" with my Bird-of-Paradise shot ???

taken in SUN-light w/ 1/4000s (@ f/8)
taken in SUN-light w/ 1/4000s (@ f/8)

w/OUT flash
w/OUT flash

w/ FLASH @ 20'
w/ FLASH @ 20'

w/OUT flash
w/OUT flash

in SUN-light WITH fill-FLASH @ 15'
in SUN-light WITH fill-FLASH @ 15'
 
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Oh give it a rest, it's got absolutely nothing to do with the OP's issues. If you want to yell to the heavens over the virtues of leaf vs focal plane shutters put up a dedicated post about it.
 
He says "It works well, but it comes at the expense of power, and heat. HSS works the flash really hard."
That makes it sound like the flash is getting the job done, but is paying its dues to do it. One reality is that HSS does absolutely nothing positive to increase the ratio of flash exposure to ambient exposure, as you increase the shutter speed, but a leaf shutter can keep increasing that ratio long after the SS point where the ratio drops due to HSS with a dual-curtain shutter. A halving of guide number for each doubling of shutter speed means a flat-line for the ratio, because ambient light exposure decreases at the same rate.

The ratio is the same for the two shutter types at slow shutter speeds, then as you increase shutter speed, at some point the dual-curtain design drops the ratio and then flat-lines at that lower-than-peak level, equivalent to about a stop slower than the maximum sync speed (less than max). The leaf shutter still climbs in ratio for at least 2 or 3 more doublings of shutter speed after the dual-curtain ratio drops to its low-ratio flat-line. The leaf shutter can gain 2 or 3 or more stops of flash:ambient ratio before you reach its SS limits (or diminishing flash returns).
Now, if you are really bothered about beginners (and not, as I suspect, just beating a drum) then you'll realise that a beginner won't know what Guide Number means (whether abbreviated or not) but can easily understand the message "... at the expense of power".
A relative waste of power. Most of that light that makes it to the sensor plane is hitting the shutter curtains. Beginners need to get realistic models in their heads in the beginning. They need to know that dual-curtain shutters are a gimmick, although a useful gimmick in some ways like getting shorter pixel exposure times, but NOT in helping with flash:ambient exposure levels, or being able to freeze vertical camera/subject registrations during the full sensor exposure interval.

All that HSS can do is provide a fast-strobing auxiliary lamp (which, hopefully, looks like a continuous lamp in most intended uses) that is housed in a flash, and communicates with the camera in flash protocol, and is only "on" when at least one row of pixels is available for exposure. It has no other "flash" qualities which are present in the range of shutter speeds where normal sync works, where the flash exposure is shorter than the ambient, and where increasing shutter speed increases the flash:ambient exposure ratio.

Whether you are using HSS with 1/320 or 1/8000, it emits light for the same period of time, about 1/160 - 1/230 or so. The slit, which moves over the sensor at the same speed in both cases, is just much narrower at 1/8000, and prone to more inaccuracy in consistent exposure, especially with pulsating light like HSS flash. 1/8000 on a DSLR is only 1/8000 in terms of how long each row of sensor pixels is exposed. The full time interval of any sensor exposure is actually as long as about 1/160 or a little shorter, in reality. A bit of an high shutter speed "farce" if there is any fast vertical motion in the scene or fast vertical change of registration during that relatively long exposure, with both HSS and ambient exposure, but not with normal sync flash, possible at higher shutter speeds with a leaf shutter.
 

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