HELP! thinking about returning k10d

[MightyMike]

Whilst this is undoubtedly true, the advanced enthusiast will want
to polish his pictures. This doesn't clear up why he would want a
camera which doesn't produce a better image first time?? Just
because he will be polishing his pictures up doesn't mean the
camera should give a poorer image to begin with.

Are you describing poorer or more easily modifyable to ones likings cause the camera didn't interfere a lot with it... one of the problems with digicams is that they tend to over-sharpen (nearly impossible to fix) they tend to over-saturate (this could clip channels and become impossible to undo and you could lose detail this way), they tend to punch up the contrast (this tends to drop the dynamic range, clip the highlights and dark areas and its impossible to recover from such editing) on top of all that they put in over agressive noise reduction that smears detail to a point where its again not recoverable. whith digicams the amature wouldn't care, the advanced amature would notice all these points and would likely desire the ability to have the least interference from the camera so that they could make the picture they way they want to... if this weren't true camera manufacturers whould never have given us RAW files

Your statment is like saying: since "advanced enthusiast" race car
drivers spend a lot of time tweaking their car to perform better,
they don't want a car that performs better in the first place. This
is where your logic is flawed.

This is where your logic is flawed... just because the jpeg comes with the least intrusive editing done to it by the camera doesn't mean it performs badly, it just means its the most customizable. Being highly modifyable would be an asset to a race car driver as they wouldn't be stuck to a good setup that can't be modified... If i give you a chasis and a body and tell you to put the car together the way you think it would perform best for you. You'd find an engine you want and transmittion you want and whatever else you'll need to make the car as fast and effective as possible. however if i hand you the same chasis and body with the engine of my decision, tranny of my decision and tell you this is what you get make the best of it, oh and by the way, to can't change the engine or tranny. so which car will be better? which car is really the poor performer...

--
Mike from Canada

'I like to think so far outside the box that it would require a telephoto lens just to see the box!' ~ 'My Quote '



http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.search?sort_order=views%20DESC&first_this_page=0&page_limit=61&&emailsearch=mighty_mike88%40hotmail.com&thumbnails=

 

[Mark Prinz]

Yeah...that's an appropriate response...

This has nothing to do with my point. The problem was never a lack of creativity or composition, it was a lack of vivid, crisp images, regardless of the content. This is in the realm of the technical, not the aesthetic.

--
http://www.photobird.com/prinz/
http://mutedphotos.deviantart.com/

 

[ranferi rodriguez]

Don't you feel depressed. This is not the DSLR for you and will never be. I own one and i´m very happy with it.
I think you will feel very happy with a Sony , Canon or Nikon.
If you can return de K10d do it.

--
saga31

 

[Michael_C_G]

This is the Pentax enclave you're posting in, you'd get similar reactions if you were saying the same thing about another brand in their discussion forum.

My opinion is the usual...that life's too short to feel you're stuck with something that makes you unhappy. Try something else. Lots of people like their camera and they aren't idiots, so it's ridiculous to assert things like "this one is better than that one" to anyone if the quantifiable measurements they use don't apply to you or vice versa. And that's what's happening here.

First of all, there are some blanket assumptions being made by the OP and other people. The first is that the quality of any camera depends on its relative comparison to other cameras. This is just an old hat trick. The quality of any camera depends on hundreds of variables the user may or may not have control over. Some people are pointing that problem out, while others are saying, like the OP, that just a few of those variables count more than others, like under-exposure, sharpness and saturation.

I think a lot of people agree that if your habit and taste is to get punchy, sharp pictures right out of the camera, and to avoid PP... you're of the majority. I can get that with my Pentax camera, so when someone tells me that they can't get it with theirs, you end up having to go back to the hundreds of other variables.

As much as some people like their Nikon D80 or Rebel XTi for punchy images, the D200 or the Canon 5D or Fuji s5 are arguably better cameras. But I can tell you that I've seen the some of the punchiest, sharpest images come out of a Canon A95, which is a $200 P&S.

What people forgive the P&S (chromatic aberrations, low ISO, shutter lag, hindered flash), they won't forgive in a DSLR with an expensive lens. Why? Because their expectations have changed based on an increase in the number of variables that an idea of image quality.

It's this idea of image quality that has people debate high end APS-C cameras versus full frame sensors with words like vignetting, noise, bit-depth, dynamic blah, blah, blah. It just never ends!

If I've learned anything about photography is that if you did a blind test of 10 pictures, all by the same user of the same subject but with 10 different cameras, there are enough people on this planet so that all 10 pictures would have fans and detractors. But, get this, it's still 10 pictures of the same thing.

So, the difference is ultimately taste.

You can't argue taste because that's the one thing people can't experience from another perspective in a nutshell review or in a forum.

 

[Caer]

Or your web-sized images?

Because in the end that's all that really matters.

--
Andy
http://www.caerphoto.com/
http://flickr.com/photos/caerphoto/

 

[John Bean (UK)]

Why would an "advanced enthusiast" not want good looking jpegs out
the camera??

It's less likely that the "advanced amateur" will not want to
"polish" his images, so less likely he will choose to accept what
the camera chooses to churn out. Just like the "advanced amateur"
film user probably didn't use Wal*Mart as his film processing lab
and accepting what he was given as the best the camera could manage.

Whilst this is undoubtedly true, the advanced enthusiast will want
to polish his pictures. This doesn't clear up why he would want a
camera which doesn't produce a better image first time?? Just
because he will be polishing his pictures up doesn't mean the
camera should give a poorer image to begin with.

It means that the "better" images of which you speak are much harder to process because they are already processed by the camera. The low-end camera will do this, the pro camera will do this - because it offers the huge amount of control needed to get it right in the camera - but the high-end amateur camera plays safe and returns good quality JPEGs more suited to final finishing on a PC.

--
John Bean [BST/GMT+1] ('British Stupid Time')

PAW 2007 Week 20:
http://waterfoot.smugmug.com/gallery/2321711/2/154041662/Large



Index page: http://waterfoot.smugmug.com
Latest walkabout (21 March 2007):
http://waterfoot.smugmug.com/gallery/2641073

 

[Marc Sabatella]

Without seeing the images in question, I would speculate that the colors and tones represented by the K10D are probably more accurate, and that your s80 was artificially oversaturating the colors and boosting the contrast to produce the typoe of look that many people - you apparently among them - find more pleasing than a more neutral rendition of a scene. Similarly, the s80 is presumably performing aggressive sharpening on its images - which always comes at a price in terms of introducing artifacts and often making noise more problematic - on the theory that most people mind these faults less than they mind unsharpened pictures.

Assuming that you really cannot get similar results in JPEG from your K10D - that you are always shooting in Bright mode (or whatever it is called on the K10D) with constrast, sharpness, and saturation turned up to the max and are still not finding the camera overprocessing the pictures to the same degree the s80 did (and I see no reaosn to doubt this would be the case), then RAW is certainly the answer.

I know you said you don't want to have to PP every single picture, but I think that is a huge misunderstanding people have about shooting RAW. Most modern RAW processing software can be set up to process photos in a batch mode, and you can set up a preset to boost the contrast, saturation, and sharpness as much as you like. It needn't take more than an extra minute of your time to turn an entire card full of RAW files into the sort of JPEG's you like. Assuming you need to convert them to JPEG at all - many modern RAW processing programs eliminate the need to do so at all, unless of course for specific images you plan to email them to someone else or post them online.

 

[Robert Chow]

The lack of crisp images or sharp enough edges is a canard as it would only be noticed on prints larger than A3 or by pixel peepers. The whole thing smells of Troll.

--
rc

 

[Rupert60]

Apparently you guys didn't read my post. There were three choices, what part did you not understand? Were there other choices I overlooked, like maybe aliens inhabiting his 10D body? When you post a thread very critical of the 10D, you must be able to accept the consequences if you can't back it up. Since the 10D is Proven to be an outstanding camera, it is not possible to "back it up" so you are left with the three choices........oh yeah, and the alien thing.
--
'This is more serious than I thought.....but it is still fun!
http://www.pbase.com/rupertdog Take a look- It's Free!

 

[Mark Prinz]

After I switched to Adobe Lightroom I found myself using RAW more often, as it made viewing, editing, and organizing feel identical between RAW and jpeg, the only difference being that the RAW file was a better quality.

To the OP: if you have time left, try this out. Lightroom has a free 30 day trial (I think) that you can download. Try taking a couple RAW shots, load them into a program like Lightroom, get the colors and sharpness where you like them, then save it as a preset. You should be able to bulk process all of your photos to match this preset after that, without any extra steps at all, as LR can be set up to apply this preset to your photos while loading them from the camera. If there are other reasons why you'd want to keep the K10 instead of dropping to something else, then this may be worth a shot. If you're out of time before you have to return it, i'd say go ahead and return it, try the K100D, see if you're happier with your usual routine. If you are, great! Keep the K100 and start shooting! If not, or if you try RAW with the K100 and find it manageable, maybe you can return the K100 and try the K10 again. Don't be afraid to keep buying and returning until you're happy. Just think of the money as collateral for a loaner camera, as you'll get it all back until you find the one you really like

I know you said you don't want to have to PP every single picture,
but I think that is a huge misunderstanding people have about
shooting RAW. Most modern RAW processing software can be set up to
process photos in a batch mode, and you can set up a preset to
boost the contrast, saturation, and sharpness as much as you like.
It needn't take more than an extra minute of your time to turn an
entire card full of RAW files into the sort of JPEG's you like.
Assuming you need to convert them to JPEG at all - many modern RAW
processing programs eliminate the need to do so at all, unless of
course for specific images you plan to email them to someone else
or post them online.

--
http://www.photobird.com/prinz/
http://mutedphotos.deviantart.com/

 

[Mark Prinz]

Now that's just ridiculous. People throw that bloody troll word around whenever there's a post that goes against their own beliefs.

--
http://www.photobird.com/prinz/
http://mutedphotos.deviantart.com/

 

[Rupert60]

Now that's just ridiculous. People throw that bloody troll word
around whenever there's a post that goes against their own beliefs.

--
http://www.photobird.com/prinz/
http://mutedphotos.deviantart.com/

So your belief is that the 10D takes crummy pictures? What if I offended you wife? Would you defend or just sit quietly? We love our 10D's and don't like for non-factual statements to go unanswered, no different than what you would find over at C or N or S. I was polite earlier and gave the OP three choices in order for him to make himself known as being reasonable, and he never responded, so you tell me, what is he?

'This is more serious than I thought.....but it is still fun!
http://www.pbase.com/rupertdog Take a look- It's Free!

 

[marf]

dslrs are not "more crisp" than non-dslrs.

thinking buying a dslr and get better shots is wrong.

the reason for buying a dslr is the ability to change lenses ( tele, wide angle, fisheye, shallow dof ) and have more lowlight-ability.

and: the larger the sensor, the more "unnatural" behavior a dslr has for users that liked non-dslrs.

i was a long time using a non-dslr.

now i use a olympus dslr and am happy with it, because this dslr has the smallest dslr sensor, so has some of the crispness of non-dslrs in it, but its possible to change the lenses and have all dslr benefits.

changing to canon will not help you much, because canon is good in the 35mm fullframe area and in this area the behavior of the cam is even more away from your non-dslr you used to have.

changing to nikon might help because nikon has good aps-sized lenses which are crisp but this combination nikon and good lens is very very expensive. but ok its possible to use cheaper prime lenses or be satisfied with cheap kitlens qualty which is not so good with every brand

on the other hand pentax is not worse than nikon because pentax has anti-shake in body
--
regards
Martin

 

[Mark Prinz]

What if I offended you wife? Would you defend or just sit quietly? We love
our 10D's

Wow...that about sums it all up. Thank you for proving my point.

--
http://www.photobird.com/prinz/
http://mutedphotos.deviantart.com/

 

[Rupert60]

What if I offended you wife? Would you defend or just sit quietly? We love
our 10D's

Wow...that about sums it all up. Thank you for proving my point.

--
http://www.photobird.com/prinz/
http://mutedphotos.deviantart.com/

And I guess your wife is proud that you would just sit by quietly? We are obviously of a different nature. If I didn't defend my wife, she would beat me 1/2 to death in a heartbeat. lol

'This is more serious than I thought.....but it is still fun!
http://www.pbase.com/rupertdog Take a look- It's Free!

 

[Mark Prinz]

And I guess your wife is proud that you would just sit by quietly?
We are obviously of a different nature. If I didn't defend my wife,
she would beat me 1/2 to death in a heartbeat. lol

Only 1/2? Must be a good wife! lol

I would defend my wife to the end (if I were married at least). But I'm not marrying my camera.

--
http://www.photobird.com/prinz/
http://mutedphotos.deviantart.com/

 

[Rupert60]

And I guess your wife is proud that you would just sit by quietly?
We are obviously of a different nature. If I didn't defend my wife,
she would beat me 1/2 to death in a heartbeat. lol

Only 1/2? Must be a good wife! lol

I would defend my wife to the end (if I were married at least). But
I'm not marrying my camera.

--
http://www.photobird.com/prinz/
http://mutedphotos.deviantart.com/

Well, cameras don't use credit cards, don't nag, and can be returned if defective, so it's not a bad idea...... lol

'This is more serious than I thought.....but it is still fun!
http://www.pbase.com/rupertdog Take a look- It's Free!

 

[interpix]

Is this what has everyone so worked up? I'm sorry, but, to be

honest, it's at least partially correct, as far as what the OP
wants out of the camera. The K10D is hardly known for it's crisp,
vivid jpegs straight from the camera. Look at the reviews, look at
the comparisons, it's pretty obvious. Whether it's a fault of the
camera or a feature is neither here nor there, but it's a problem
for the OP, and for the OP it's a problem with the camera.

Play nice boys.

-Mark

--
http://www.photobird.com/prinz/
http://mutedphotos.deviantart.com/

Well as far as I understund the low in camera sharpening will not show up until prints bigger than A3, at least if you should belive the test here at DP.

If so there will hardly be any help for OP to go for another dslr but perhaps a PS.

 

[Gazander]

My thoughts exactly.

The OP has not posted ANYTHING since starting the thread including any so called inferior pictures.

But the more I think the more i realize...... This may be an attempt by a competing company, or maybe the site owners to engage in viral marketing, big buzzword i know, but think.

This forum is read a lot. People come here to learn what to buy.... What better way to screw up the competition than by starting a thread with unverifiable and ultimately subjective statements under the guise of end-user experiences?

And to ask for specific recommendations about competing cameras?

If I had my doubts about a buy, i would post as much material as possible to get the most balanced response. The OP has done exactly nothing of the sort.

The whole thing smells of Troll.

 

[fujifil]

What if I offended you wife? Would you defend or just sit quietly? We love
our 10D's

Wow...that about sums it all up. Thank you for proving my point.

The first rule for survival in here is to recognise and accept that some of of the posters are clinically insane - honestly.

I remember one maniac from a couple of years ago who proudly announced that he wanted to be buried with his Pentax!! - no, I'm not making it up, there really are people like that who haunt this forum.

It's really only a mater of time before the first camera-rage murder is documented! - thinks that's far-fetched?, consider the American gardening aficionado who was recently imprisoned for shooting dead a 16 year old boy who walked on his newly mowed lawn!

Since we're dealing with some wildly disordered minds, it's best to confine any criticism of Pentax to the net - if you happen to actually meet any Pentax owners when out and about be sure to praise their camera to the skies!! that way, you have an even chance of making it home alive,

Some useful phrases to placate Pentax shooters (no pun intended) in the wild are:

"Wow - that image stabilisation is just awesome - I wish my camera had it"

"Hey!! - how come the results are so film-like?"

"Pentax is the pluckiest little camera company in the world"

"That K10D is built like a tank - makes mine look so flimsy"

""Man! - I envy you being able to use all those great old prime lenses"

Repeat all those phrases several times, whilst backing away from the Pentax enthusiast - then, when you've put at least fifty yards between you, turn and run for your life to the safety of your car or(even better) a local police station.

If you're particularly nimble (and have an adequate head start) you might shout out, "Pity about the Pentax metering/focus/dynamic range!!" before you take to your heels - but I don't really recommend it. Best to safe, rather than sorry ')