Help needed - several issues

[Adyaacov]

Thank you for this info. Very important

 

[John Vickers]

Greetings everyone,

I would really appreciate any input re the following problems I have.

Some background:

I do a lot of night-time wildlife photography using off-camera flashes. I use a Sony A1 body and a Godox Xpro trigger. I usually use 2-4 Godox TT685 flashes, in most cases in TTL mode as I find that the exposure is perfect with little need to adjust.

My problems are:

1. Range

The trigger is good up to 100m (330ft) under perfect conditions, but in reality 50-60m. A few days ago my flashes were 90m away and were not always triggered.

This limits my work as it is too close for certain species.

Is there a way to extend this range? I would like the ability to be 200m from the flashes or even a bit more. I am ready to use wires (though this seems like a step backwards) if they exists and would support TTL and other functions.

Extending range:

Do you have a direct line of sight from the transmitter to the receiver(s) ?

Is there any vegetation in the way? Can you achieve a direct line of sight ?

...

The received signal strength depends somewhat on the relative orientation of the transmit and receive antennas.

The XPro controller should be pointing towards the receiving flashes, and the front edge of the XPro should be in a horizontal plane. (I guess it is already, unless it is on a hot-shoe extension cable).

[The "meandered F" antenna is at the front of the XPro, oriented from left to right, in the plane of the XPro body (this last detail is not very important)].

Godox speedlights have the transmit/receive antenna behind the front of the body of the speedlight: on the opposite side to the LCD/OLED and the controls. The antenna is again orientated horizontally (TT685 ; V1 ), and lies in a plane parallel to the display.

For maximum range:

• The front of the speedlight should be facing the transmitter. (The display should be facing away from the transmitter)
• The left-right axis of the speedlight body should be horizontal, and at right-angles to the direction of the transmitter.
• There may be a small benefit to tilting the body of the speedlight around its left-right axis, so that the plane of the display is at right angles to the direction of the transmitter. But anything within about [guesstimate] 45° should be fine.

This implies that the flash heads on the speedlights are pointing "the wrong way": they point roughly in the same direction that the displays face.

Further reading:

• https://www.nxp.com/docs/en/application-note/AN2731.pdf#page=20
• https://www.ti.com/lit/an/swra117d/swra117d.pdf#page=7

...

I am ready to use wires (though this seems like a step backwards) if they exists and would support TTL and other functions.

You would have to carry several kg of wire. Electrically, triggering flashes with a super-long PC-sync cable should be OK, I think. Low capacitance wire would be good. The concern would be the edge rates (speed of high-to-low triggering transitions) seen by the speedlights: they might be a bit slow.

There's no DC loading problem: the PC-sync output on a camera or on an XPro trigger can drive dozens of Godox flashes.

Of course, PC-sync doesn't support TTL.

...

Have you considered moving the camera closer, and using a PIR camera trigger? Is a PIR trigger applicable to your application?

Example: https://store.camtraptions.com/coll...ucts/pir-motion-sensor?variant=12965726421075

2. Burst

I usually only get 1-2 images of my flashes using TTL or full power.

Again, this is a huge limitation. I would like to get 10 (or at least 5) images in a burst but I'm no where near that. Would one of the Godox AD200/300/400 do this? Reducing the power is not an option usually.

If you are using speedlights zoomed in, or with additional external Fresnel lenses, that may be the best way to get light onto your target. The higher power flashes would cycle faster at the same power, but they are not really set up for getting a lot of light onto a very small area.

How zoomed in are your flashes?

You might find this thread interesting: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/66929497

3. Battery drain

Usually I don't take that many pics per session, so he main issue is stand-by time. I need the flashes to be ready to shoot for up to 12 hours but they only last 6-8 hours on rechargeable Eneloop batteries (8 hours with the black 2900ma type) this means that I have to change batteries in the middle of the session, which creates an unwanted disturbance.

 

[John Vickers]

Do you really need TTL? uses a lot of radio traffic which could limit the range. Using an XPro II in Legacy (single pin) mode might will increase the range.

In principle you could daisy chain transmitters and X1R receivers to get more range but I'd worry about reliability.

... and the extra wireless transmission delays will limit the usable shutter speed.

Going to Li-Ion powered strobes should fix your standby problem. Using PM960 external power pack won't fix the problem because they only supply power when the strobe is fired.

Going to a higher power strobe should help with the burst mode shooting the higher to power the more likely it is that you'll get more good frames. It should also fix your standby problem.

Edited to add: Another option would be to move the camera closer to the lights and trigger the camera remotely with a wireless trigger.

 

[fotowbert]

Adyaacov wrote in part:

My problems are:

1. Range

The trigger is good up to 100m (330ft) under perfect conditions, but in reality 50-60m. A few days ago my flashes were 90m away and were not always triggered.

This limits my work as it is too close for certain species.

Is there a way to extend this range? I would like the ability to be 200m from the flashes or even a bit more. I am ready to use wires (though this seems like a step backwards) if they exists and would support TTL and other functions.

All Godox triggers, including Xpro ii are rated at 100 meters.

It hasn't been mentioned in this thread that the Flashpoint SPT (Single Pin Transceiver) range specification is listed at 150m, 50m more than that typically given for Godox TX units. That's a 50% range increase from a $25 device with the caveat it is manual flash only.


Flashpoint SPT technical specs

In addition it lists a range of 300m when both TX and RX are SPT units. I'm not sure I agree with the logic of doubling of the range for this use case.

• John

--
"[If you don't sweat the details] the magic doesn't work." Brooks, F. P., The Mythical Man-Month, Addison-Wesley, 1975, page 8.

 

[Adyaacov]

Thank you so much for your comments

Greetings everyone,

I would really appreciate any input re the following problems I have.

Some background:

I do a lot of night-time wildlife photography using off-camera flashes. I use a Sony A1 body and a Godox Xpro trigger. I usually use 2-4 Godox TT685 flashes, in most cases in TTL mode as I find that the exposure is perfect with little need to adjust.

My problems are:

1. Range

The trigger is good up to 100m (330ft) under perfect conditions, but in reality 50-60m. A few days ago my flashes were 90m away and were not always triggered.

This limits my work as it is too close for certain species.

Is there a way to extend this range? I would like the ability to be 200m from the flashes or even a bit more. I am ready to use wires (though this seems like a step backwards) if they exists and would support TTL and other functions.

Extending range:

Do you have a direct line of sight from the transmitter to the receiver(s) ?

Is there any vegetation in the way? Can you achieve a direct line of sight ?

...

The received signal strength depends somewhat on the relative orientation of the transmit and receive antennas.

The XPro controller should be pointing towards the receiving flashes, and the front edge of the XPro should be in a horizontal plane. (I guess it is already, unless it is on a hot-shoe extension cable).

[The "meandered F" antenna is at the front of the XPro, oriented from left to right, in the plane of the XPro body (this last detail is not very important)].

Godox speedlights have the transmit/receive antenna behind the front of the body of the speedlight: on the opposite side to the LCD/OLED and the controls. The antenna is again orientated horizontally (TT685 ; V1 ), and lies in a plane parallel to the display.

For maximum range:

• The front of the speedlight should be facing the transmitter. (The display should be facing away from the transmitter)
• The left-right axis of the speedlight body should be horizontal, and at right-angles to the direction of the transmitter.
• There may be a small benefit to tilting the body of the speedlight around its left-right axis, so that the plane of the display is at right angles to the direction of the transmitter. But anything within about [guesstimate] 45° should be fine.

This implies that the flash heads on the speedlights are pointing "the wrong way": they point roughly in the same direction that the displays face.

Further reading:

• https://www.nxp.com/docs/en/application-note/AN2731.pdf#page=20
• https://www.ti.com/lit/an/swra117d/swra117d.pdf#page=7

...

The maximum range of the Xpro is about 100m. I have used it a lot so I know that if you want reliable triggering you need to be less than that. Last week I was about 90m away with direct eyesight, trigger directed towards the flashes, no significant vegetation, and yet it did not trigger 100% of the times. And I need more than double that range for some projects. That will definitely not be possible with any current Godox trigger.

I am ready to use wires (though this seems like a step backwards) if they exists and would support TTL and other functions.

You would have to carry several kg of wire. Electrically, triggering flashes with a super-long PC-sync cable should be OK, I think. Low capacitance wire would be good. The concern would be the edge rates (speed of high-to-low triggering transitions) seen by the speedlights: they might be a bit slow.

There's no DC loading problem: the PC-sync output on a camera or on an XPro trigger can drive dozens of Godox flashes.

Of course, PC-sync doesn't support TTL.

...

Have you considered moving the camera closer, and using a PIR camera trigger? Is a PIR trigger applicable to your application?

Example: https://store.camtraptions.com/coll...ucts/pir-motion-sensor?variant=12965726421075

Yes, using this much wire will be a hassle and may not work that great. It was just an idea out of desperation...

Moving the camera closer... yes, I've done it in the past and didn't like it. Might as well use a camera trap with PIR sensors. To me that takes away a large part of what I enjoy. You have little control on what's in the frame. All you can do is sit and watch through binoculars and trigger by remote. The end result may sometimes be good but something is lost on the way

2. Burst

I usually only get 1-2 images of my flashes using TTL or full power.

Again, this is a huge limitation. I would like to get 10 (or at least 5) images in a burst but I'm no where near that. Would one of the Godox AD200/300/400 do this? Reducing the power is not an option usually.

If you are using speedlights zoomed in, or with additional external Fresnel lenses, that may be the best way to get light onto your target. The higher power flashes would cycle faster at the same power, but they are not really set up for getting a lot of light onto a very small area.

How zoomed in are your flashes?

In most cases I am able to place the flashes close to the action (around 30ft?). If that is the case, I don't zoom them so much. Usually leave them on 50mm because otherwise I get a thin strip of light and a lot of black around it. When I can't get close, I use better beamers, but again, that can add another 60ft maybe, not 600 feet. Better beamers work best with the flash set to 50mm.

The TT685 are ok power-wise. I never felt they lack power as long as I place them near the action. I do use them in TTL or full power though. The night outdoors is, how shell I say... dark , I usually need every bit of light I can get.



You might find this thread interesting: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/66929497

3. Battery drain

Usually I don't take that many pics per session, so he main issue is stand-by time. I need the flashes to be ready to shoot for up to 12 hours but they only last 6-8 hours on rechargeable Eneloop batteries (8 hours with the black 2900ma type) this means that I have to change batteries in the middle of the session, which creates an unwanted disturbance.

 

[Adyaacov]

Thx!

I will read about those too.

Generally speaking, I would expect 50-60% of the published range in real life, but it's worth a try.

 

[Adyaacov]

So, to summarize the replies and my inquiries so far

Battery life and bursts can be improved by using stronger flashes with Lithium ion batteries.

Triggering from a distance greater that 100m can only be done at the moment by simple triggers i.e. Tx-Rx systems that would require a unit for each flash and one for the camera plus cables, and that will offer only preset exposure.

The only product that could trigger and control from a distance, the RAVEN, is not available for sony and according to the company is not expected anytime soon (IF at all).

That's pretty depressing.

 

[tugwilson]

Thx

Yes I've emailed them. Waiting for reply.

It's just that spending 350$ on a non compatible trigger seems a bit annoying.

Yes it's a lot to spend on something not fully compatible. I guess there's a chance full compatibility could come down the line via firmware. But if it does trigger and gives you manual control of power then it may be your best option. Wouldn't buy it unless you've had that confirmed though.

The pocket wizard triggers triggers will be cheaper, but since I will need several receivers maybe not

They seem to come out around the same price if you buy 4 of these new. Sounds like you would need 4 if you want to trigger 3 lights, unless you think you could get away with one receiver and have the others trigger optically. Two batteries per unit, more kit to manage, cables that could come loose ...

Two PWs one on the camera one to fire the Godox trigger colocated with the lights. Use the 3.5mm sync socker which is on all Godox triggers except the X3

 

[Adyaacov]

Thx Tug,

I guess that what i'll have to do.

Will the PW allow you to control the power of the flash or will I have to set it on the flash itself? The second option is of course a hassle b/c it means going back and forth between the camera and the flash, and during a shoot if I'm not happy with the results I will not be able to increase/reduce power.

Also, on a different subject, is there a way to charge the Lithium ion batteries of the AD series in the field, not from an outlet?

 

[tugwilson]

Thx Tug,

I guess that what i'll have to do.

Will the PW allow you to control the power of the flash or will I have to set it on the flash itself? The second option is of course a hassle b/c it means going back and forth between the camera and the flash, and during a shoot if I'm not happy with the results I will not be able to increase/reduce power.

Also, on a different subject, is there a way to charge the Lithium ion batteries of the AD series in the field, not from an outlet?

Put the colocated trigger in APP/L858 mode. Use a second trigger to set the power levels. You may have to creep closer to do so!

 

[Adyaacov]

So after spending two days on the web searching and reading about every trigger out there, I may have found an acceptable solution. Not stellar, but might be good enough.

The Westcott FJ-X3 trigger has a range of up to 985ft (300m). Even if in reality it is only 600-700ft and only in manual mode, this should be ok. There is a universal version and a dedicated Sony version.

I think I will get 2 Westcott flashes (e.g. FJ 80 II) as well, and so I will hopefully have a fully functioning kit for long distance situations. My existing Godox set will continue to be used with the Xpro for closer situation, I don't think I will bother getting receivers for them.

The cost for 2 FJ80 flashes and a trigger is about 500$ so not so bad.