Good camera, bad UI

[Andrei L]

Excellent results in both stills and movies for such a compact camera. Build quality is also great, grip easy to improve with the optional addon by Sony or 3rd party.

However, the general Sony UI philosophy, logic and coherence or lack thereof is a big letdown. It's focused on technology and quantity, not on serving most relevant functions within each context, resulting in a cluttered, poorly organized and unresponsive interface that you usually end up struggling with instead of it making things convenient.
It's not all bad, although they should really learn from Olympus, Panasonic and Fuji. Constantly displaying unavailable options and error messages you have to confirm just doesn't cut it. Pointless redundant modes for the same purpose, poor selection of JPEG rendering options (Creative Styles, whatever), overabundance of useless filters (but with Cross Processing, Bleach Bypass and other real filters missing) and most of all, the impossibility to deactivate stuff you don't want to see. Normally, it's not a big issue, but in the excessive menu of RX 100 II, it would really help, just like a dedicated flash button.

On the plus side, shutter lag is minimal, AF generally very fast and accurate, it's only the constant lag between button action and OSD/interface that really disconnects you from the experience.

Exposures are judged alright in auto and semi auto modes, it has less of a tendency to use slow shutter speeds compared to Fuji at least, flash exposure is spot on, with pleasing results in both dark and fill situations.

Also, shot to shot times are not fantastic, because of the general UI lag and the fact it will not really benefit from using the fastest SD type cards you can get from a (low-to-middle speed) point up.

Overall, I just wish it had better AF-C and tracking capabilities, zero interface lag and a more judiciously selected and organized menu and interface, which really drags a bit down what is otherwise an extremely powerful all-around compact. Not easy to recommend against Fuji X30 if you care about shooting experience, despite the lesser IQ, nor the Canon G7x (II), for that matter, when it comes to quality/interaction balance. If you don't mind extra bulk and a less stellar JPEG engine, then Panasonic LX100 might be a better fit for you. However, once you do learn your way around it, it's really fun and easy enough to warrant a purchase. A more responsive and organized UI - and much less cluttered, for that matter - would make it stellar. Less is more.

 

[Tristimulus]

Give it time, adapt to the user interface, and you will see it is not that bad at all!

Am using Sony cameras most of the time (have adapted) and to me the user interface of the Canon cameras I use now and then is simply a mess. Comes a lot down to what we are used to, expectations - and adaption.

But it is very popular to mock the Sony user interface! :-D

 

[Andrei L]

Hi, thanks for sharing. I imagine I'll get the hang of it, it's just that coming from using the Fuji X-E2 daily, where, especially after the last 4.0 FW update, not only you have every single important photo function at a button press away, but every Fn is one long-press away from being customized on the spot, with tons of presets to store and choose from, this little gadget really had me staring at stuff I don't really need to see.
However, after more than five years of not using Nikon at all, picking up a familiar D700 and using its controls felt simply awkward compared to what Fuji quickly got me used to. Really, Fujis control so natural that they make achieving the desired result feel effortless. If only they had better overall AF to be viable fast action cams, slightly better video output and better RAW converter compatibility in terms of results (don't want a Mac just to get Iridient), they'd be sweeping the floor with most current brands. Alas, I digress.
I'm thinking that someone a bit less familiar with photography will find all the stuff the RX100 II nags you with tremendously helpful, on the other hand. I've honestly bought it as a present for my wife just because It will be easy on auto and interesting for her to learn from all the helper stuff included, while still delivering excellent output.

Also, I wouldn't have thought mocking the Sony interface is popular, judging by the seemingly high sales of many of its cameras. I've been using Sony cameras since A700/A900, which I've enjoyed beyond what words can convey (especially the latter in the select company of top Zeiss lenses) and I don't think the Minolta heritage could have been better placed.

However, for the asking price, I'm not quick to forgive interface delay, for instance. It's an 800+ dollars compact, at least it was, on launch. For the 300 I've paid to get a used one in fantastic shape, it's a rocket.

And, truth be told, in effect, many of its settings aren't at all gimmicky, in that they convey results pretty close to what consciously choosing manual settings grants you. Which is great.

So I'm not saying it's not a fantastic camera. It's definitely the best true compact I've used. Ever. With the optional little grip, it feels great. It's just that I'd personally like a variation focused more on experienced photo/videographers with a more responsive and essentials-oriented interface. For the images I'm getting with it though, any annoyance I've had so far is still well worth it

And yeah, Canon sucks in more than just menus, for the most part. Not the G7x, I liked that. I've steered clear since 20d/30d/40d, which IMHO were the last decent crops. Tried newer models, felt like jokes, much like the arguably good D7000 series from Nikon, which I simply hate coming from D100/200/300. It's only the newer D500 and 80D models that got me interested again in Nikanon, I've yet to play with them. The 5D / D600/700 series I liked with every incarnation, but if I am to carry that size and weight, then I'd rather carry medium format TBH. Sony A7 looks more manageable though, but still quite expensive for my "taste". That's why I went Fuji in the first place.

 

[JALComputing]

However, the general Sony UI philosophy, logic and coherence or lack thereof is a big letdown. It's focused on technology and quantity, not on serving most relevant functions within each context, resulting in a cluttered, poorly organized and unresponsive interface that you usually end up struggling with instead of it making things convenient.

Hi Andrei.. I agree the menu system could be more user friendly. I have been using the Sony menu system now on three cameras. At this point I think I pretty know where most stuff is and I know most of the gotcha's of the system. So with time I think things will get easier. Perhaps I can help out here.

Quick Menu

Most commonly used functions are available from the "quick menu" triggered by pressing the function key.

Custom Keys

If there are other functions that you need fast access to, they can be assigned to the C button or LeftDial or RightDial Button. You can program these custom settings from:

Gear --> 5 --> Custom Key Settings

So I have the C button set to Manual Focus/ AF toggle

Exposures are judged alright in auto and semi auto modes, it has less of a tendency to use slow shutter speeds compared to Fuji at least, flash exposure is spot on, with pleasing results in both dark and fill situations.

Auto ISO is a strong point.

You can set the minimum and max ISO speeds:

Inc --> ISO Auto --> Right Click --> Auto Minimum ISO etc.

You can set the Min. Shutter Speed to fast:

I believe the default shutter is 1/ISO. You can change this to fast:

Menu --> Camera --> 4 --> ISO Auto Min. SS --> Right Click --> Fast --> Enter
Hope this helps,

Jeff

 

[tbcass]

Maybe not the best UI but I don't have any problem with it. Practice makes perfect. I just wish the video and still functions were completely separate. I used to own a Fuji s9000 which had IMO a worse interface.

 

[Andrei L]

However, the general Sony UI philosophy, logic and coherence or lack thereof is a big letdown. It's focused on technology and quantity, not on serving most relevant functions within each context, resulting in a cluttered, poorly organized and unresponsive interface that you usually end up struggling with instead of it making things convenient.

Hi Andrei.. I agree the menu system could be more user friendly. I have been using the Sony menu system now on three cameras. At this point I think I pretty know where most stuff is and I know most of the gotcha's of the system. So with time I think things will get easier. Perhaps I can help out here.

Quick Menu

Most commonly used functions are available from the "quick menu" triggered by pressing the function key.

Custom Keys

If there are other functions that you need fast access to, they can be assigned to the C button or LeftDial or RightDial Button. You can program these custom settings from:

Gear --> 5 --> Custom Key Settings

So I have the C button set to Manual Focus/ AF toggle

Exposures are judged alright in auto and semi auto modes, it has less of a tendency to use slow shutter speeds compared to Fuji at least, flash exposure is spot on, with pleasing results in both dark and fill situations.

Auto ISO is a strong point.

You can set the minimum and max ISO speeds:

Inc --> ISO Auto --> Right Click --> Auto Minimum ISO etc.

You can set the Min. Shutter Speed to fast:

I believe the default shutter is 1/ISO. You can change this to fast:

Menu --> Camera --> 4 --> ISO Auto Min. SS --> Right Click --> Fast --> Enter

Hope this helps,

Jeff

Thanks for sharing these tips, they're useful. Not entirely done with the user manual but these are standout helpers, for sure. The Auto ISO however cannot be changed this way until Mark IV. I'm talking Mark II here, so unfortunately it does not apply.

 

[Andrei L]

Maybe not the best UI but I don't have any problem with it. Practice makes perfect. I just wish the video and still functions were completely separate. I used to own a Fuji s9000 which had IMO a worse interface.

 

[Douglas F Watt]

Excellent results in both stills and movies for such a compact camera. Build quality is also great, grip easy to improve with the optional addon by Sony or 3rd party.

However, the general Sony UI philosophy, logic and coherence or lack thereof is a big letdown. It's focused on technology and quantity, not on serving most relevant functions within each context, resulting in a cluttered, poorly organized and unresponsive interface that you usually end up struggling with instead of it making things convenient.
It's not all bad, although they should really learn from Olympus, Panasonic and Fuji. Constantly displaying unavailable options and error messages you have to confirm just doesn't cut it. Pointless redundant modes for the same purpose, poor selection of JPEG rendering options (Creative Styles, whatever), overabundance of useless filters (but with Cross Processing, Bleach Bypass and other real filters missing) and most of all, the impossibility to deactivate stuff you don't want to see. Normally, it's not a big issue, but in the excessive menu of RX 100 II, it would really help, just like a dedicated flash button.

On the plus side, shutter lag is minimal, AF generally very fast and accurate, it's only the constant lag between button action and OSD/interface that really disconnects you from the experience.

Exposures are judged alright in auto and semi auto modes, it has less of a tendency to use slow shutter speeds compared to Fuji at least, flash exposure is spot on, with pleasing results in both dark and fill situations.

Also, shot to shot times are not fantastic, because of the general UI lag and the fact it will not really benefit from using the fastest SD type cards you can get from a (low-to-middle speed) point up.

Overall, I just wish it had better AF-C and tracking capabilities, zero interface lag and a more judiciously selected and organized menu and interface, which really drags a bit down what is otherwise an extremely powerful all-around compact. Not easy to recommend against Fuji X30 if you care about shooting experience, despite the lesser IQ, nor the Canon G7x (II), for that matter, when it comes to quality/interaction balance. If you don't mind extra bulk and a less stellar JPEG engine, then Panasonic LX100 might be a better fit for you. However, once you do learn your way around it, it's really fun and easy enough to warrant a purchase. A more responsive and organized UI - and much less cluttered, for that matter - would make it stellar. Less is more.

This is a slightly harsher than average presentation of a popular chronic gripe about Sony UI and OS menus and structures - hammered at repeatedly in DPR reviews of virtually every Sony body. What's troubling though is that you seem unaware of the uses of the Fx menu to significantly mitigate this set of common frustrations, and the customizable buttons. Although I (along with many others) share a much milder sense of occasional 'arrgh' when searching through the OS, the way I have the camera set up makes virtually all the important settings and functions easily accessible. And once you get used to the ability to customize the OS to your liking, it's hard to work with another interface that lacks this to the degree that Sony has in many of their current bodies.

--
Sony A77m2-RX1-RX10III-RX100III
Sigma: 8-16 4.5-5.6, Tamron 70-200 2.8
Sony: 16-50 2.8, 100 f2.8 Macro, 70-400 f4-5.6 G2,
Minolta: 600 f4, 70-210 f4 ('Beercan'), 28-135 f4-4.5 (SH)
DFW

 

[busch]

Learn to use the Fx menu! I think it will help you with your heart burn.

 

[Andrei L]

Thanks for the advice. Some though seemingly cannot stand critique of the Sony menu system. Have you even used an Olympus or Pentax for longer periods of time? You should.

I've looked into its customization options to populate that quick access menu with the functions I wanted, as well as the left/right d-pad dials and examined how the Fx / D-pad down behaves under all modes prior to grieving about it.

Having the Fn quick access menu is OK, but in order to change the setting, assuming it isn't the first one to pop up, you have to:

1. Press Fn.

2. Use D-pad left/right to switch between the different assigned functions.*

3. Use the wheel to change values for currently active setting.**

4. For some further settings, press down and wheel around some more for the 2nd tier of values related to that function.

* sometimes scrolling the wheel instead of pressing d-pad side accidentally and ** sometimes the other way around, triggering function switch instead of changing the function's value and vice-versa.

Plus, if i fully press the shutter to snap the pic after making the desired Fn change, while the Fn OSD is open, that OSD remains active after the capture, so accessing D-Pad left or right after the snap to change something else will actually move through the Fn menu instead. Really great ergonomics, a lot of testing, UX know-how and thought put into that one

So, it's the way Fn works which makes my heart hurt

From an UX perspective, there's nothing optimal about displaying settings which cannot be modified in a certain context, let alone allowing users to select those and having to confirm the bla blah message with OK. Is that supposed to be a system getting least in your way when quickly changing settings?

I even like many semi-auto and auto functions the Sonys have and agree that generally they take very good to fantastic footage and stills.

But sorry, getting used to an excessive and inconvenient interface for taking snaps and stills does not make it good. Nor does it help it lag less. It's not since the Nikon D80 I've had button presses register while snapping and performing functions of the playback menu instead of them altering the setting in the shooting mode. And I'm fairly sure it's the menu which takes its time to re-appear causing it.

I had also gotten used to the weird stuff Fuji X10 had down its sleeve, but it wasn't as laggy and simply did not offer certain options or had them grayed out and unselectable when the context wasn't right for them, it never bothered me with bedtime stories and OK prompts to pass that message on, since there's always the user manual.

Imagine for a second that you're driving your car and when you heavily step on the brake, you need to confirm a pop-up which explains ABS will be taking over and your direct input will not be interpreted as such. You can get used to it and quickly tap it before crashing, right?

 

[Tristimulus]

Hi, thanks for sharing. I imagine I'll get the hang of it, it's just that coming from using the Fuji X-E2 daily, where, especially after the last 4.0 FW update, not only you have every single important photo function at a button press away, but every Fn is one long-press away from being customized on the spot, with tons of presets to store and choose from, this little gadget really had me staring at stuff I don't really need to see.
However, after more than five years of not using Nikon at all, picking up a familiar D700 and using its controls felt simply awkward compared to what Fuji quickly got me used to. Really, Fujis control so natural that they make achieving the desired result feel effortless. If only they had better overall AF to be viable fast action cams, slightly better video output and better RAW converter compatibility in terms of results (don't want a Mac just to get Iridient), they'd be sweeping the floor with most current brands. Alas, I digress.
I'm thinking that someone a bit less familiar with photography will find all the stuff the RX100 II nags you with tremendously helpful, on the other hand. I've honestly bought it as a present for my wife just because It will be easy on auto and interesting for her to learn from all the helper stuff included, while still delivering excellent output.

Also, I wouldn't have thought mocking the Sony interface is popular, judging by the seemingly high sales of many of its cameras. I've been using Sony cameras since A700/A900, which I've enjoyed beyond what words can convey (especially the latter in the select company of top Zeiss lenses) and I don't think the Minolta heritage could have been better placed.

However, for the asking price, I'm not quick to forgive interface delay, for instance. It's an 800+ dollars compact, at least it was, on launch. For the 300 I've paid to get a used one in fantastic shape, it's a rocket.

And, truth be told, in effect, many of its settings aren't at all gimmicky, in that they convey results pretty close to what consciously choosing manual settings grants you. Which is great.

So I'm not saying it's not a fantastic camera. It's definitely the best true compact I've used. Ever. With the optional little grip, it feels great. It's just that I'd personally like a variation focused more on experienced photo/videographers with a more responsive and essentials-oriented interface. For the images I'm getting with it though, any annoyance I've had so far is still well worth it

And yeah, Canon sucks in more than just menus, for the most part. Not the G7x, I liked that. I've steered clear since 20d/30d/40d, which IMHO were the last decent crops. Tried newer models, felt like jokes, much like the arguably good D7000 series from Nikon, which I simply hate coming from D100/200/300. It's only the newer D500 and 80D models that got me interested again in Nikanon, I've yet to play with them. The 5D / D600/700 series I liked with every incarnation, but if I am to carry that size and weight, then I'd rather carry medium format TBH. Sony A7 looks more manageable though, but still quite expensive for my "taste". That's why I went Fuji in the first place.

Well - my humble point was that the Sony interface is not that hard to adapt to.

Mocking the Sony user interface is popular, as a lot of fellow posters can attest with posts of their own. Kind of fact...

Did not intend to belittle Canon cameras. Just wanted to say that the even the Canon user interface require adaption if not beeing used to it.

My Canon cameras all do a very good job! As do the Sony cameras.

 

[Andrei L]

I know, it's fine. My point is that having to adapt and live by the specifics of that interface is getting in the way of what could have been a much more engaged and fun shooting experience with otherwise extremely powerful pieces of equipment.

And it's irritating that despite a quite option-rich menu system, they don't offer the possibility to turn off unavailable items via a menu setting, nor the post-capture behavior (e.g. not operating changes in playback but rather wait for the camera to become available to shoot and trigger the desired shooting option).

 

[Andrei L]

Really, my point was I like what this camera can do and all the tech that went into it, however there is no excuse for the lame interface that's more likely to disconnect you from shooting than be helpful, in spite of all the options it accommodates. Therefore, for me at least, the RX 100 II is a camera I really like, in spite of, not because of, its interface.

So, it's fine, use Sonys all you want, but don't find excuses like 'you'll get used to it' and instead spam the producer with whatever bothers you, so that it might be taken into account and addressed in the future.

I'm a happy Fuji mirrorless user in spite of some really big annoyances I've had with their system and software. However, I'm not denying it's really awful in areas it is so. Instead, I went to Fuji feedback channels and thickened the line of complaints with my gripes.
Ignoring that something's really awful never makes it better.

 

[Andrei L]

UPDATE: It really does shine when using it in full Manual mode. That's right, I've been able to capture even better images, topping the already good auto/semi-auto results by manually setting each and every parameter, from ISO, shutter/aperture and even doing MF/zone focus instead of AF. Of course, it applies best for static subjects that aren't going to run away or anything like that, but I've really come to like squeezing this 1" with my bare hands

The interface I still find sucky, as the delayed response when using it, especially when having to go through all major settings manually. However, the big, big plus is that you actually CAN change these settings and get great pics with a pocket camera.

Also found that I'm mostly using the equivalent of 28-35 most of the time, often rather wishing for something a bit wider - which makes me appreciate that Sony have subsequently decided to drop the long tele end in favor of a wider focal and faster short tele range.

Also enjoyable is the usage with weird clip-on brackets that can be used as ad-hoc tripods. They're almost weightless, but I always manage to find something to stick the camera to for longer exposure night shots. Also, fantastic high iso performance for such a compact camera. It's good in JPEG, but awesome in RAW.

Overall, very very pleased with this little bugger, I suspect I'll grab one of its younger cousins sometime in the future.