Full-Frame, what am I missing?

[ikolbyi]

As someone who is heavily invested in both MFT (OMS & Panny) and FF (Panny), I wanted to share an image of the two systems side-by-side for those who continuously discuss MFT & FF systems as if MFT is now a cancer or dead system (my interpretation on this forum commentary).

The grass is not necessarily greener on the other (FF) side, it all comes down to how you use the system and what you are trying to photograph.

The below sample is of a static image with natural lighting. Something I saw in my yard after a heavy rainstorm so I brought out both cameras for a quick and dirty comparison. I am noting now the setting are different between the cameras because the systems are different. Different focus distances, lenses, sensors, etc .... but I tried my best to make the image comparison identical. Images processed through DXO v7.






Lumix G9.2




Lumix S1R.2



Which one do you prefer?

 

[BudgetTraveller]

.... but there are photos FF can get that M43 cant.

Myself (and I'm sure others) would really appreciate if you could expand on this and list some absolute examples to state your claim.

Jared Polin made the claim (paraphrasing) the original LUMIX S1R is unusable for sports and the m2 version is not much better……

my response to those individuals who agree:

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/68034846

Jared Polin is entitled to his opinions. But his opinions are not actual facts. He called the Nikon Df a Hipster-Matic camera. Uber expensive as it was and with 5.5fps and poor AF, not a good backup for anything else. You couldn't even do sports with it. Strange that I could easily use the Df for sports.

All taken with EV5 lighting, which several people claimed the Nikon Df wouldn't focus at all or the 5.5fps wouldn't even capture all those amazing moments.

In these situations, especially in dog agility under EV5 lighting and needing 1/2000sec and higher shutter speeds, only FF @ ISO 20,000 can give such clean and sharp images that M43 would struggle. A smaller sensor simply can't do well in these type of shooting genre. And when I was doing dog agility photography, everyone is using FF. When I was doing the Olympics and FIFA circuit a long time as a NPS photographer, those who brought in their APS-C cameras quickly take out loaners from Canon and Nikon booths for the FF setup.

 

[ikolbyi]

Completely off topic: is the OM5 about as good as the OM1 and OM2? And even a bit better than the EM1.2 that I have? These live landscape filters are so tempting...I use my EM1.2 for macro and shadow noise in raised shadows is a bit of an issue, than can be solved mostly by AI denoise, but that's slow...

image quality of the Oly/OM 20mp sensors is pretty much identical since the 20mp Pen F

The sensor may be the same but the camera processor is improving its image performance .

thats why the EM1.X has held up so well because it has two, one dedicated to the camera functions and another dedicated to the sensor. All other OM cameras have a single processor that shares managing the camera functions and sensor processing.

sorry but that's nonsense

the 2nd processor helps to give higher frame rates and faster processing, but there's no improvement in IQ. if anything, consensus is that stacked sensors have - at best - the same IQ as non stacked, and in some cases the stacked sensor has less DR

the RAW output of Oly/OM 20mp sensors is, for all intents and purposes, identical. the differences are in the jpeg output, because the OM1 applies AI NR in camera. but something like Photolab can do a better job from the RAW file

it's funny, most of this thread is m43 users claiming there's no difference between m43 and ff, or funnier still, between phones and m43

but the same users will claim clear differences between m43 cameras that output identical IQ

only on the m43 forum

Old article but it confirms my statement above:

Nikon Z6 Review - Image Quality - Imaging Resource

Nikon Z6 Review - Z6 Image Quality

www.imaging-resource.com

 

[cathal gantly]

.... but there are photos FF can get that M43 cant.

Myself (and I'm sure others) would really appreciate if you could expand on this and list some absolute examples to state your claim.

Jared Polin made the claim (paraphrasing) the original LUMIX S1R is unusable for sports and the m2 version is not much better……

my response to those individuals who agree:

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/68034846

Jared Polin is entitled to his opinions. But his opinions are not actual facts. He called the Nikon Df a Hipster-Matic camera. Uber expensive as it was and with 5.5fps and poor AF, not a good backup for anything else. You couldn't even do sports with it. Strange that I could easily use the Df for sports.

All taken with EV5 lighting, which several people claimed the Nikon Df wouldn't focus at all or the 5.5fps wouldn't even capture all those amazing moments.

In these situations, especially in dog agility under EV5 lighting and needing 1/2000sec and higher shutter speeds, only FF @ ISO 20,000 can give such clean and sharp images that M43 would struggle. A smaller sensor simply can't do well in these type of shooting genre. And when I was doing dog agility photography, everyone is using FF. When I was doing the Olympics and FIFA circuit a long time as a NPS photographer, those who brought in their APS-C cameras quickly take out loaners from Canon and Nikon booths for the FF setup.

For my sins, I have also (a long time ago) shot dog agility. None of the pictures you've posted would be impossible to get with micro four thirds.

I appreciate that you're not the person who made the claim that FF can get photos that M43 can't, but the claim is BS. There may very well be technical differences, and differences in image quality (in favour of both systems depending on criteria) but you'd still get the shot.

 

[JNK 100]

Completely off topic: is the OM5 about as good as the OM1 and OM2? And even a bit better than the EM1.2 that I have? These live landscape filters are so tempting...I use my EM1.2 for macro and shadow noise in raised shadows is a bit of an issue, than can be solved mostly by AI denoise, but that's slow...

image quality of the Oly/OM 20mp sensors is pretty much identical since the 20mp Pen F

The sensor may be the same but the camera processor is improving its image performance .

thats why the EM1.X has held up so well because it has two, one dedicated to the camera functions and another dedicated to the sensor. All other OM cameras have a single processor that shares managing the camera functions and sensor processing.

sorry but that's nonsense

the 2nd processor helps to give higher frame rates and faster processing, but there's no improvement in IQ. if anything, consensus is that stacked sensors have - at best - the same IQ as non stacked, and in some cases the stacked sensor has less DR

the RAW output of Oly/OM 20mp sensors is, for all intents and purposes, identical. the differences are in the jpeg output, because the OM1 applies AI NR in camera. but something like Photolab can do a better job from the RAW file

it's funny, most of this thread is m43 users claiming there's no difference between m43 and ff, or funnier still, between phones and m43

but the same users will claim clear differences between m43 cameras that output identical IQ

only on the m43 forum

Yes I agree - it's very defensive and at times, utterly illogical.

 

[JNK 100]

.... but there are photos FF can get that M43 cant.

Myself (and I'm sure others) would really appreciate if you could expand on this and list some absolute examples to state your claim.

Jared Polin made the claim (paraphrasing) the original LUMIX S1R is unusable for sports and the m2 version is not much better……

my response to those individuals who agree:

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/68034846

Jared Polin is entitled to his opinions. But his opinions are not actual facts. He called the Nikon Df a Hipster-Matic camera. Uber expensive as it was and with 5.5fps and poor AF, not a good backup for anything else. You couldn't even do sports with it. Strange that I could easily use the Df for sports.

All taken with EV5 lighting, which several people claimed the Nikon Df wouldn't focus at all or the 5.5fps wouldn't even capture all those amazing moments.

In these situations, especially in dog agility under EV5 lighting and needing 1/2000sec and higher shutter speeds, only FF @ ISO 20,000 can give such clean and sharp images that M43 would struggle. A smaller sensor simply can't do well in these type of shooting genre. And when I was doing dog agility photography, everyone is using FF. When I was doing the Olympics and FIFA circuit a long time as a NPS photographer, those who brought in their APS-C cameras quickly take out loaners from Canon and Nikon booths for the FF setup.

Nice shots and of course, what you say makes perfect sense.

 

[BudgetTraveller]

For my sins, I have also (a long time ago) shot dog agility. None of the pictures you've posted would be impossible to get with micro four thirds.

I welcome you to show me your indoors dog agility photographs at below EV5 that matches the IQ of a full frame camera and make me a believer. Only below EV5 please, because those shots I took were all taken above ISO 20,000 @ 1/2000sec, which is below EV5. You are telling me that MFT can NOT only rival or even exceed the IQ performance of a full frame at ISO 20,000?!? So, show me please your examples. This I really need to see.

 

[JNK 100]

For my sins, I have also (a long time ago) shot dog agility. None of the pictures you've posted would be impossible to get with micro four thirds.

I welcome you to show me your indoors dog agility photographs at below EV5 that matches the IQ of a full frame camera and make me a believer. Only below EV5 please, because those shots I took were all taken above ISO 20,000 @ 1/2000sec, which is below EV5. You are telling me that MFT can NOT only rival or even exceed the IQ performance of a full frame at ISO 20,000?!? So, show me please your examples. This I really need to see.

These shots will be most instructive - let's see.

 

[Asherax]

.... but there are photos FF can get that M43 cant.

Myself (and I'm sure others) would really appreciate if you could expand on this and list some absolute examples to state your claim.

Jared Polin made the claim (paraphrasing) the original LUMIX S1R is unusable for sports and the m2 version is not much better……

my response to those individuals who agree:

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/68034846

Jared Polin is entitled to his opinions. But his opinions are not actual facts. He called the Nikon Df a Hipster-Matic camera. Uber expensive as it was and with 5.5fps and poor AF, not a good backup for anything else. You couldn't even do sports with it. Strange that I could easily use the Df for sports.

All taken with EV5 lighting, which several people claimed the Nikon Df wouldn't focus at all or the 5.5fps wouldn't even capture all those amazing moments.

In these situations, especially in dog agility under EV5 lighting and needing 1/2000sec and higher shutter speeds, only FF @ ISO 20,000 can give such clean and sharp images that M43 would struggle. A smaller sensor simply can't do well in these type of shooting genre. And when I was doing dog agility photography, everyone is using FF. When I was doing the Olympics and FIFA circuit a long time as a NPS photographer, those who brought in their APS-C cameras quickly take out loaners from Canon and Nikon booths for the FF setup.

Nice shots and of course, what you say makes perfect sense.

OMG it's a Gotcha moment!!!.... quick everyone sell your cameras and burn your hard disks before the FF gestapo arrive at your door! LOL

--
Photography is poetry made visible; it is the art of painting with light!

 

[ikolbyi]

For my sins, I have also (a long time ago) shot dog agility. None of the pictures you've posted would be impossible to get with micro four thirds.

I welcome you to show me your indoors dog agility photographs at below EV5 that matches the IQ of a full frame camera and make me a believer. Only below EV5 please, because those shots I took were all taken above ISO 20,000 @ 1/2000sec, which is below EV5. You are telling me that MFT can NOT only rival or even exceed the IQ performance of a full frame at ISO 20,000?!? So, show me please your examples. This I really need to see.

Comes down to lens selection. If conditions are that poor, then use lower aperture lenses to compensate.

i have been in ice rinks where the lighting was so bad even the FF photographers threw in towel and conceded all of our images that game where not good. My images in comparison were equal, not worse.

 

[Cafe Racer]

.... but there are photos FF can get that M43 cant.

Myself (and I'm sure others) would really appreciate if you could expand on this and list some absolute examples to state your claim.

Jared Polin made the claim (paraphrasing) the original LUMIX S1R is unusable for sports and the m2 version is not much better……

my response to those individuals who agree:

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/68034846

Jared Polin is entitled to his opinions. But his opinions are not actual facts. He called the Nikon Df a Hipster-Matic camera. Uber expensive as it was and with 5.5fps and poor AF, not a good backup for anything else. You couldn't even do sports with it. Strange that I could easily use the Df for sports.

All taken with EV5 lighting, which several people claimed the Nikon Df wouldn't focus at all or the 5.5fps wouldn't even capture all those amazing moments.

In these situations, especially in dog agility under EV5 lighting and needing 1/2000sec and higher shutter speeds, only FF @ ISO 20,000 can give such clean and sharp images that M43 would struggle. A smaller sensor simply can't do well in these type of shooting genre. And when I was doing dog agility photography, everyone is using FF. When I was doing the Olympics and FIFA circuit a long time as a NPS photographer, those who brought in their APS-C cameras quickly take out loaners from Canon and Nikon booths for the FF setup.

Hey, you're not allowed to demonstrate full frame high ISO IQ in such a circumstance on this forum. Only static plant photos shot in daylight at low ISO are allowed!