Foveon X3: Larger image samples

[Ulysses]

These are NOT at 100% size. They've been resized, and who knows what else has been done to them. But if you're following the Foveon Entertainment Channel, this will be of interest to you guys:

Samples are near the bottom of the page in JPEG format:
http://www.foveon.com/news_pressroom.html

Enjoy. --

Ulysses

 

[David (r00t)]

Here are the one's I was looking at. Click on the B/W thumbnails.

http://www.foveon.com/X3_images_boxer.html

These are NOT at 100% size. They've been resized, and who knows
what else has been done to them. But if you're following the Foveon
Entertainment Channel, this will be of interest to you guys:

Samples are near the bottom of the page in JPEG format:
http://www.foveon.com/news_pressroom.html

Enjoy.
--

Ulysses

--DavidMy galleries http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4292111925http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4292056545 'What we have here is a failure to communicate' - Cool Hand Luke

 

[Ulysses]

Too bad they don't provide the larger versions (100% would be even BETTER) of all of those small images in their gallery.

Even so, the images are promising, although they certainly seem like they might be more processed than Phil's thumbnail samples (?).

Here are the one's I was looking at. Click on the B/W thumbnails.

http://www.foveon.com/X3_images_boxer.html-- Ulysses

 

[Shay Stephens]

I checked the cat photo, and it looks like it is not sharpend with unsharp mask at least, so I wonder if much has been done to them. Also it looks like levels have not been applied either...--Shay - My Sony F707 Gallery: http://shaystephens.com/portfolio.asp

 

[Peter G]

Phils crops are 100% and presumably unprocessed. The results look pretty good. With that kind of quality is pre-production sensor, we can only wait in anticipation for the production review.

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0202/02021103foveonx3preview.asp

While this is something of a revolutionary breakthrough, it should be noted that Bayer interpolation isn't doing all that badly these days. Artifacts are really few and far between and resolution is quite high.

So we don't have to give up on Mosaic cameras just yet. I plan on getting a new camera in the next 6 months and it looks like unless I want the Sigma DSLR (out of my price range), I will end up with a mosaic based camera. That is just fine with me.

This sensor looks like it will yield an incremental improvement, not an order of magnitude. Very, very cool technology, but it doesn't obsolete everything else.

Peter

Even so, the images are promising, although they certainly seem
like they might be more processed than Phil's thumbnail samples (?).

Here are the one's I was looking at. Click on the B/W thumbnails.

http://www.foveon.com/X3_images_boxer.html

--

Ulysses

 

[Ulysses]

Hey there Peter. I see you've experienced the largely fruitlessness of your efforts an 'another' forum. For what it's worth, I followed what you were saying, but that wouldn't have helped to say so either.

Anyway, back to Foveon!

Phils crops are 100% and presumably unprocessed. The results look
pretty good. With that kind of quality is pre-production sensor, we
can only wait in anticipation for the production review.

Yep. Saw 'em. Want to see the whole thing. Phil's word is nearly good enough for me, and he's excited. But I still want to see 100%, unretouched, all the way, all the pixels, all of 'em, pitchas.

While this is something of a revolutionary breakthrough, it should
be noted that Bayer interpolation isn't doing all that badly these
days. Artifacts are really few and far between and resolution is
quite high.

I think it depends upon the filters used, the NR methods adopted, etc. But this chip in its first-generation introduction seems like the real macoy in terms of introducing largely noise-free images to consumer-grade cameras.

If Sony Semi. is following (and they certainly are), then perhaps good times are coming for all, regardless of chip used.

So we don't have to give up on Mosaic cameras just yet. I plan on
getting a new camera in the next 6 months and it looks like unless
I want the Sigma DSLR (out of my price range), I will end up with a
mosaic based camera. That is just fine with me.

Bahahahahahahahahahahahahah!!©

I'm sorry, Peter. You KNOW that I like you and all of that, but I'm starting to think after the past year of getting to know you that you're NEVER going to get a camera. )

Seems like only yesteryear we were laughing about the same thing.

Definitely let ME know when you pick one up.

This sensor looks like it will yield an incremental improvement,
not an order of magnitude. Very, very cool technology, but it
doesn't obsolete everything else.

Mmmm... I'd say maybe the truth is somewhere in-between incremental and a magnitude leap. -- Ulysses

 

[John T68485]

I was looking at the pictures earlier, and I am very impressed. When I first saw the links, I thought the pictures couldn't be much better than with today's technology. I was wrong. These pictures live up to the hype. They have very little to no noise, and the colors look great. I was most impressed by the absence of shadow noise.

I was going to wait until the next generation DSC-S85 came out. However, it looks like my wait will be longer. Which will be until an afforderable X3 camera is released.

John-- http://www.pbase.com/jmaxima

 

[Peter G]

Hey there Peter. I see you've experienced the largely fruitlessness
of your efforts an 'another' forum. For what it's worth, I followed
what you were saying, but that wouldn't have helped to say so
either.

Well I learned something, so it wasn't entirely fruitless. Unfortunately I learn best by debating, which tends to upset some people. I get bored with just reading. I started with assumptions and the debating forced me to dig into the material more and refine my thinking. My opinions on the matter haven't changed, but I feel I now better understand the technical reasons behind it. Claims of Magic always irk me.

Anyway, back to Foveon!

Yes...

Phils crops are 100% and presumably unprocessed. The results look
pretty good. With that kind of quality is pre-production sensor, we
can only wait in anticipation for the production review.

Yep. Saw 'em. Want to see the whole thing. Phil's word is nearly
good enough for me, and he's excited. But I still want to see 100%,
unretouched, all the way, all the pixels, all of 'em, pitchas.

Me too, but essentially I think will have to wait for the Sigma. Which essentially is like reading reviews of exotic sports cars when I have to scrape together cash to afford an escort.

I think it depends upon the filters used, the NR methods adopted,
etc. But this chip in its first-generation introduction seems like
the real macoy in terms of introducing largely noise-free images to
consumer-grade cameras.

We have really only seen the output of the pro chip thus far (I am assuming). The pixel size is around D30 size, so low noise is expected. But I was a bit concerned about ISO topping out at iso400 on the sigma. There is a load of promise in this technology.

If Sony Semi. is following (and they certainly are), then perhaps
good times are coming for all, regardless of chip used.

They are probably sweating a bit today, I think. . They own the market right now and this upstart comes along with some very impressive technology (no doubt with a lot patents around it).

Bahahahahahahahahahahahahah!!©

I'm sorry, Peter. You KNOW that I like you and all of that, but I'm
starting to think after the past year of getting to know you that
you're NEVER going to get a camera. )

Well I almost added (didn't I say that 6months ago .

I think it has been about 8 months (snow was melted) since I sold my Nikon CP950. I actually expected faster progress in some areas, and then got into waiting for PMA mode. Once winter sets in my desire for a camera drops off. But I would really like to have one by spring. The Fuji 602 is a contender, but after looking at the output of the 601 it shows quite a bit of sky noise (red channel?), which I really don't like.

Definitely let ME know when you pick one up.

Oh yeah, if nothing shows up at PMA, I think I will just get a Canon S30 and settle in to wait for really affordable DSLRs.

This sensor looks like it will yield an incremental improvement,
not an order of magnitude. Very, very cool technology, but it
doesn't obsolete everything else.

Mmmm... I'd say maybe the truth is somewhere in-between incremental
and a magnitude leap.

2004 will probably be the year of Foveon.

Here is an interesting X3 link:

http://www.business2.com/articles/web/print/0,1650,37797,FF.html

Cheers,

Peter

 

[Ulysses]

To be fair, these images are not true originals either. So I'm reluctant to just jump wholesale about the imager's noise or lack of it one way or the other. I need to see the whole image, and I'd like access to the EXIF data, too.

Having said that, I'm glad we had a look at these larger shots. They hold... promise.

I was looking at the pictures earlier, and I am very impressed.
When I first saw the links, I thought the pictures couldn't be much
better than with today's technology. I was wrong. These pictures
live up to the hype. They have very little to no noise, and the
colors look great. I was most impressed by the absence of shadow
noise.

I was going to wait until the next generation DSC-S85 came out.
However, it looks like my wait will be longer. Which will be until
an afforderable X3 camera is released.

John
--
http://www.pbase.com/jmaxima

-- Ulysses

 

[Eric Lamont]

Maybe I am just ignorant, but I don't see a huge leap in image quality from the 707. I mean the pics are certainly clear, but if you know how to use your 707 well (and many people on this forum do) you can obtain similar results. The boxer is really sharp and clear, maybe more so than a 707 could do, but Iwas not that impressed with the kitty pic, or the pool picture. Nice shots, but not undoable with the 707.

of course this just could be my way of rationalizing....... its hard to admire a new camera when I just spent a large sum on the 707. I can't afford to upgrade all the time.

These are NOT at 100% size. They've been resized, and who knows
what else has been done to them. But if you're following the Foveon
Entertainment Channel, this will be of interest to you guys:

Samples are near the bottom of the page in JPEG format:
http://www.foveon.com/news_pressroom.html

Enjoy.
--

Ulysses

--Eric http://www.pbase.com/elamont/myf707

 

[Frank C.]

hope this'll shakedown the other manufacturers. New technology
is always good for the consumer. I wonder who'll dump Sony's
ccds first..... heh

These are NOT at 100% size. They've been resized, and who knows
what else has been done to them. But if you're following the Foveon
Entertainment Channel, this will be of interest to you guys:

Samples are near the bottom of the page in JPEG format:
http://www.foveon.com/news_pressroom.html

Enjoy.
--

Ulysses

 

[Ulysses]

hope this'll shakedown the other manufacturers. New technology
is always good for the consumer. I wonder who'll dump Sony's
ccds first..... heh

I'm thinking it will be one of the smaller players, the ones who have a LOT more to gain in market share in order for buyers and investors to sit up and notice.

Let's see who's in the market right now in terms of producing decent cameras:
Canon
Casio
Epson
Fuji
HP
Kodak
Minolta
Nikon
Olympus
Ricoh
Sony
Toshiba

These are some of the major players. Now, which ones would you put an asterisk next to, signifying that they'd take the Foveon Flying Leap of Faith in order to increase their product awareness, while at the same time heightening their quality?

Looks interesting, now, doesn't it?
-- Ulysses

 

[Ulysses]

The biggest difference is expected to be in noise levels. As to sharpness, we'll have to wait and see. The F707 simply has so many pixels, that even when we reduce the image size, we can automatically improve noise levels. But the Foveon may intrinsically be --- correction, is almost guaranteed to be better in this area, due largely to the photosite. It's 9 microns, which is nearly 3x the size of that of our own sensor's photosites. That's a significant advantage that I'm sure we'll see right away in the resultant images.

Another is that they claim that the sensor is virtually blooming free. I guess it would be, especially since this sensor is designed totally differently than the conventional CCD, which relies upon a microlens sitting atop the sensor array. It's this microlens that partly contributes to the blooming and purple fringing. That and the way that the sensors themselves are arranged in the array, and the size of the "wells" between photosites have a lot to do with this problem. So 'bye-bye' purple fringing.

Of these problems, some are more subtle than others. But it all adds up to a better image if you can eliminate them.

I'd like to know how bright the images are natively off the camera, too.

Maybe I am just ignorant, but I don't see a huge leap in image
quality from the 707. I mean the pics are certainly clear, but if
you know how to use your 707 well (and many people on this forum
do) you can obtain similar results. The boxer is really sharp and
clear, maybe more so than a 707 could do, but Iwas not that
impressed with the kitty pic, or the pool picture. Nice shots, but
not undoable with the 707.

-- Ulysses

 

[Peter G]

I think the main problem will be lack of a suitable sensor. The 4/3" sensor may be great for the Oly/Kodak alliance, but the 1/2" consumer sensor may prove a hard sell at only 1.3MP (1344 x 1024). This is only showing up in the 3rd quarter. Are there any cameras currently using a 1/2" sensor?

Peter

Let's see who's in the market right now in terms of producing
decent cameras:
Canon
Casio *
Epson *
Fuji
HP *
Kodak *
Minolta *
Nikon
Olympus *
Ricoh *
Sony
Toshiba

These are some of the major players. Now, which ones would you put
an asterisk next to, signifying that they'd take the Foveon Flying
Leap of Faith in order to increase their product awareness, while
at the same time heightening their quality?

Looks interesting, now, doesn't it?

--

Ulysses

 

[Ulysses]

I think the main problem will be lack of a suitable sensor. The
4/3" sensor may be great for the Oly/Kodak alliance, but the 1/2"
consumer sensor may prove a hard sell at only 1.3MP (1344 x 1024).
This is only showing up in the 3rd quarter. Are there any cameras
currently using a 1/2" sensor?

Some of the smaller players (won't name names here...) would probably be glad to release what might at first be perceived as a relatively lower-end camera with the Foveon chip. It's cheaper than having the CCD from Sony as their only option, offers potentially greater rewards in image quality, and gets them a foothold (for both camera maker as well as Foveon) in the minds and wallets of consumers.

Some on that list of manufacturers would probably love to get a 1.2Mp sensor in their camera.

And no body said that Sigma would be the only ones using their released 3.4Mp chip. They're just the "first". -- Ulysses

 

[Ron Parr]

I don't think a 707 could do these shots. The colors are so real and the shadows are soooo clean. The boxer and the pool table have this incredible three dimensional feel on my monitor. I feel like I could just reach out and touch them. I'm stunned.

--Ron ParrFAQ: http://www.cs.duke.edu/~parr/photography/faq.htmlGallery: http://www.pbase.com/parr/

 

[TurboTed]

I'd be very curious how their sensor responds when shooting directly at colored lights such as Christmas lights or neon signs.

I would think it might do a better job keeping pure colors rather than blowing out into a white highlight.

These are NOT at 100% size. They've been resized, and who knows
what else has been done to them. But if you're following the Foveon
Entertainment Channel, this will be of interest to you guys:

Samples are near the bottom of the page in JPEG format:
http://www.foveon.com/news_pressroom.html

Enjoy.
--

Ulysses

 

[Frank C.]

I believe this Foveon sensor may accelerate Canon's move
to ( finally ) introduce their CMOS sensor to the masses
just so they can maintain their high market share ( maybe
in the G3 ? ). AFA as who'll adopt the Foveon chip first or
among the first, expect a major player who's fed up with
having to ask Sony for their ccds. Foveon will price their sensors
much the same way AMD prices their cpus and they'll probably
post the greatest gains in market share while doing so.

AFA early adopters, my bet would go to Nikon or Olympus,
probably the latter as they're a bit more "desperate"
and have stated a need to change things around for 2002.
What better way to refreshen their line-up then by equipping
some of their upcoming digicams with the 'latest and greatest'
sensor around.

Hats off to Foveon for making a lot of ppl sweat and opening
up a lot of eyes at the same time. Hope they're here to stay
and become an important player in the digicam industry.

I think the main problem will be lack of a suitable sensor. The
4/3" sensor may be great for the Oly/Kodak alliance, but the 1/2"
consumer sensor may prove a hard sell at only 1.3MP (1344 x 1024).
This is only showing up in the 3rd quarter. Are there any cameras
currently using a 1/2" sensor?

Some of the smaller players (won't name names here...) would
probably be glad to release what might at first be perceived as a
relatively lower-end camera with the Foveon chip. It's cheaper than
having the CCD from Sony as their only option, offers potentially
greater rewards in image quality, and gets them a foothold (for
both camera maker as well as Foveon) in the minds and wallets of
consumers.

Some on that list of manufacturers would probably love to get a
1.2Mp sensor in their camera.

And no body said that Sigma would be the only ones using their
released 3.4Mp chip. They're just the "first".
--

Ulysses

 

[Ulysses]

OK, I'm going to start naming names after all. I just didn't want to be the first to do it. )

Here's my prediction: None of the The Big Five will use the chip, at least not at first (Sony, Canon, Nikon, Olympus, or Fuji). But I fully expect someone like Kodak, Casio or possibly HP to use their chip. The latter two would start with the lower end chip to come out in the fall. Kodak might start with the higher end chip so as to put out a higher-end camera. They need the 'exposure', and they need it more desperately than ANYONE right now. It may be their last hope for a digital handhold.

Heheheheh.... )

AFA early adopters, my bet would go to Nikon or Olympus,
probably the latter as they're a bit more "desperate"
and have stated a need to change things around for 2002.
What better way to refreshen their line-up then by equipping
some of their upcoming digicams with the 'latest and greatest'
sensor around.

Hats off to Foveon for making a lot of ppl sweat and opening
up a lot of eyes at the same time. Hope they're here to stay
and become an important player in the digicam industry.-- Ulysses

 

[Ulysses]

Well, their press material says it will offer a "very high dynamic range". Hopefully that will keep those highlights in check, along with their 12-bit processing.

I'd be very curious how their sensor responds when shooting
directly at colored lights such as Christmas lights or neon signs.

I would think it might do a better job keeping pure colors rather
than blowing out into a white highlight.-- Ulysses