Flash Issue Survey

[Mark VB]

Reading the recent thread on Sony's answer (actually non-answer) to flash compatibility questions, and some posts there noting that some, but not all people have experienced flash exposure issues (but without stating how they use their flash), and knowing my own experiences, I thought it might be interesting to do a little survey.

Basically, here are the questions:

Have you experienced flash exposure inconsistencies with a 7D/5D and an external flash?

If so, what are the general conditions (e.g., distance to subject, maximum aperture of lens(es) used, focal length of lens(es), indoor or outdoor, camera mode - e.g., P, A, S or M, other that you think relevant)?

Was your camera/flash re-calibrated by KM?

If you are experiencing inconsistencies, is it with straight ahead direct flash or with some kind of light modification (including bounce flash or attachments to the flash head such as diffusers, bouncers, etc.)?

What is the tonality of your subjects where you experience the problem (e.g., light, middle or dark toned)?

I ask these questions because in my experience they generally relate to the situations that can give rise to problems that most people are experiencing.

My own experiences, with a recalibrated camera/flash, are that the primary exposure inconsistencies occur in two situations (the operating mode of the camera - P, A, S or M - does not matter):

(1) With dark toned subjects (like a groom and groomsmen at a wedding all wearing black suits), which usually can be corrected by dialing in minus flash exposure compensation. This is basically like normal exposure, where the camera sees a dark toned subject and adds more light to make it a neutral middle tone. Thus, to retain the dark tonality, some amount of underexposure compensation is needed.

(2) With light modifiers and/or bounce flash, when the pre-flash is weakened to the point the camera can't read it and therefore puts out a full power burst resulting in overexposure. Dialing in minus flash exposure compensation cannot correct this because the camera is unable to use the pre-flash for a correct flash meter reading. One solution is to stop the lens down further until you get a "correct" flash exposure with the full power burst. But this is trial and error. One partial solution I have found that maintains flash metering is to put the flash head zoom in the manual mode and at a longer focal length (e.g., 50-85mm). This will effectively strengthen the pre-flash increasing the chance that the camera will be able to "read it," while using the flash bounced or with the light modifier provides full flash coverage of your scene even shooting with wide angle lenses (the 1.5x crop factor also probably helps in this regard). A second partial solution is to use a lens with a faster maximum aperture (if you have one). The wider maximum aperture allows more light into the camera including, presumably, the pre-flash. At a recent wedding, while having some problems with a bounced 5600HS flash and 24-85/3.5-4.5 lens, I obtained better results when I switched to my 28-75/2.8 lens (I was using the 24-85 for the great focal length range). These partial solutions will not always work, but will increase the success rate.

--
Mark Van Bergh

 

[andrewD2]

Not a big issue but try this...

Inside, 50cm away, f2, ISO400, 1/125s
Overexposed? The minimum the flash can fire can be too high, afaiks.

Also, can you confirm manual flash still uses the flash comp dial.

ie. set it on 1/8 power and +1FEC will give you 1/4, +2FEC 1/2 power, -1 will give you 1/16th power.
Save me putting batteries in the 3600HS

I get the most inconsistent flash metering with the 16mm fisheye but this is not suprising and I accept that anything from -2 to +2 might be required.

Andrew

 

[gz927]

There were many threads concerning the problems with the 7D and 5D with the various Minolta flashes-5600 etc.
An expensive but easy solution was to buy a Metz flash for the 7D.

I did and it works great. This was shot with 7D on program and Metz on Automatic- No touchups-right out of the 7D using a 24-105D lens.
Shot yesterday 7/18



--
Shoot first-ask questions later.

 

[Mark VB]

Not a big issue but try this...

Inside, 50cm away, f2, ISO400, 1/125s
Overexposed? The minimum the flash can fire can be too high, afaiks.

Yes, at very close distances you may get overexposure as the flash simply cannot cut off fast enough, based on your ISO and shooting aperture. If you are experiencing the problem at ISO 400, you should try lowering the ISO to 200 or 100. If that does not work, try using a polarizing filter or neutral density filter (if you have one), which cuts down the amount of light entering the lens, or putting a white tissue or cloth over the front of the lens to reduce the light coming from the flash.

Also, can you confirm manual flash still uses the flash comp dial.
ie. set it on 1/8 power and +1FEC will give you 1/4, +2FEC 1/2
power, -1 will give you 1/16th power.
Save me putting batteries in the 3600HS

If you are shooting with the flash in manual mode (as opposed to the camera being in manual exposure mode), the flash comp dial should have no effect. In manual flash mode you are telling the flash to fire with a fixed amount of light (1/8 power in your example). You also are telling the camera not to use its TTL metering system (that is why on the flash you set it to "M" rather than "TTL"). Thus, each time the camera/flash fires, the flash will fire at 1/8 power. On the back of the flash you can see the distance you should be at for proper exposure depending on your chosen aperture (as you change your aperture, the distance also will change).

If, however, you mean keeping the flash in TTL mode (as set on the flash) and putting the camera in "M" mode (meaning manual exposure), then the camera will continue to use TTL flash metering, and the flash compensation dial will work. In that situation, by setting the flash at 1/8 power you are essentially setting the maximum amount of power the flash will use, but it still will use less power as is required to provide what it thinks is the proper flash exposure (in your example, this could be 1/16th, or whatever other lower power level is appropriate for proper exposure). In this example, and with the flash pointed directly at the subject, the back of the flash will tell you the effective working distances at which the flash can provide proper exposure based on the chosen lens aperture (this assumes you are not adding any sort of light modifier to the flash) (when you move the flash head, i.e. for bounce, it will no longer show you the effective working distance because it has no idea what sort of surface you are bouncing the light from).

I get the most inconsistent flash metering with the 16mm fisheye
but this is not suprising and I accept that anything from -2 to +2
might be required.

As you say, not a big surprise given the extreme wide view of the lens. One of the "problems" I have found with the 5600HS flash is that as you go to a wider lens, and the flash head zooms back to the wider setting, the effective reduction in the pre-flash power limits your effective working distance, particularly if you are bouncing the flash (although I assume you are simply using the wide-angle panel/diffuser on the flash with the 16mm lens). Also, you need to keep in mind the tonality of the subjects you are photographing and how it may impact the flash metering.

--
Mark Van Bergh

 

[Mark VB]

There were many threads concerning the problems with the 7D and 5D
with the various Minolta flashes-5600 etc.

Indeed there have been. My intent is not to start that all over again, but rather to try to get a clarification from folks about the actual shooting circumstances in which they are encountering a problem, or not. I think that would help people get a better grasp on the when they are likely to encounter a problem, and possible ways of dealing with it (such as the suggestions in my original post).

An expensive but easy solution was to buy a Metz flash for the 7D.
I did and it works great. This was shot with 7D on program and Metz
on Automatic- No touchups-right out of the 7D using a 24-105D lens.

Nice shot. This is not the type of situation that should cause problems for the flash/camera metering (though the "lazy eye" issue that some have encountered is a different story).

Yes, the Metz is a possible solution, but it is not always the answer. Shooting a wedding a couple of weeks ago, and again encountering some issues with the flash and my 24-85/3.5-4.5 lens, I switched to my Metz 40MZi flash with its built-in sensor. While many shots came out fine, others did not (burned out whites being the major problem). The sensor on the flash has a fixed field of view, and if what it sees is significantly different than what the lens you are using provides, and if the sensor is seeing a subject of different tonality than what you are shooting (e.g., it sees dark tones but there are many more lighter tones in the actual frame), it can have an adverse effect on exposure, as it did for me. Similarly, if you are shooting with a longer telephoto (like a 70-200), the sensor on the flash will see a wider field of view and if there are subjects within that field closer than what you actually are shooting, the flash will cut off early (for the closer subjects) and your more distant subject will be underexposed. If the lens you are using has a field of view that closely matches what the flash sees, or if your subjects will always, or almost always, be within the flash sensor's field of view, then the Metz is a quite viable alternative.

I ultimately switched back to the 5600HS flash and switched to a faster lens, which solved most of the problems. Perhaps the Metz 54 series flash that many are recommending is a bit better in this regard than the 40MZ series that I have. But, people should be aware of its possible drawbacks as compared to TTL flash metering (when it works right).
--
Mark Van Bergh

 

[bedammit]

Very informative post.

Just htis past weekend I shot some portraits outdoors and want to use my 5600 to fill.

I used a light meter to meter the amount of light recieved near the subject(s). I consistenly got a slower aperature than what was needed to adequately fill my subjects eyes.

I shot only manual (both camera and flash)

I made adjustments, but never really got the exposure I think I could have for the photos.

I think that this would be even worse on TTL or ADI as it might be too bright for the camera to read the preflash.

Any thoughts?

--
KM A2
KM 7Hi
KM 7D

28-70mm
70-300mm
300mm f4
HS 5600 D

 

[andrewD2]

Save me putting batteries in the 3600HS

If you are shooting with the flash in manual mode (as opposed to
the camera being in manual exposure mode), the flash comp dial
should have no effect. In manual flash mode you are telling the
flash to fire with a fixed amount of light (1/8 power in your
example). You also are telling the camera not to use its TTL
metering system (that is why on the flash you set it to "M" rather
than "TTL"). Thus, each time the camera/flash fires, the flash
will fire at 1/8 power. On the back of the flash you can see the
distance you should be at for proper exposure depending on your
chosen aperture (as you change your aperture, the distance also
will change).

Just test it Mark, I think you will be suprised.
I know how it works here. I thought you might want to see it with your own eyes.

It does NOT fire at 1/8th power if the flash is set to manual 1/8th power in the menu and you use flash exposure comp.
You could have saved me putting the batteries in

How good is this? Well, no preflash and an easy way to vary flash power and reliable shot to shot power.

Andrew

 

[andrewD2]

http://www.photoluminaire.co.uk/photos/10160718/

All M mode (remove ambient as a variable) AND manual flash set to 1/4th. One is with the flash comp dial on -1, one on 0 and one on +1.

1/4 power is quite a good choice in that you can get full, 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/16 power using the flash comp dial (and half stops in between of course).

Andrew

 

[meanstreak]

My 5600 works perfectly with the 7D. As I understand it the newer 7Ds don't have a problem with the flash. If you received one from the factory with the 1.10 firmware version, it should work OK. They made some engineering changes and changes via the firmware that corrected the problem. Unfortunatly, simply upgrading the firmware on your existing 7D isn't enough.

 

[Biu]

Have the 3600Hs which works beautifully with the 7D. Exposure was reliable and as expected on every shot. No problem at all.

Also has a Metz 54MZ3 with original M adaptor. Also works beautifully with 7D in Auto, manual and stroke mode.

Biu

 

[Mark VB]

Save me putting batteries in the 3600HS

If you are shooting with the flash in manual mode (as opposed to
the camera being in manual exposure mode), the flash comp dial
should have no effect. In manual flash mode you are telling the
flash to fire with a fixed amount of light (1/8 power in your
example). You also are telling the camera not to use its TTL
metering system (that is why on the flash you set it to "M" rather
than "TTL"). Thus, each time the camera/flash fires, the flash
will fire at 1/8 power. On the back of the flash you can see the
distance you should be at for proper exposure depending on your
chosen aperture (as you change your aperture, the distance also
will change).

Just test it Mark, I think you will be suprised.
I know how it works here. I thought you might want to see it with
your own eyes.
It does NOT fire at 1/8th power if the flash is set to manual 1/8th
power in the menu and you use flash exposure comp.
You could have saved me putting the batteries in

The point of manual flash (as opposed to manual metering on the camera), is to have the flash go off at a fixed power level, independent of the flash metering system. The 5600HS instruction manual states: "Manual flash provides a fixed flash intensity irrespective of the brightness of the subject and the camera setting." (p. 36) Thus, the flash compensation dial should have no effect. HOWEVER, the 5600HS manual also states: "Manual flash operates in the camera's M (manual) mode only. TTL measuring is selected automatically in other modes." (p. 36) Thus, if you did your tests with the camera in any exposure mode other than M (manual), you were not actually using the flash in manual mode, but rather in TTL mode, and the flash compensation dial will work as it normally does.

(While I wish I could confirm this with my camera and flash, right now I can't. Unfortunately, I just dropped off my 5600HS at a local repair facility. A couple of months ago I had to have the shoe/foot of my flash replaced due to an unfortunate event. When I got the flash back, I discovered that it would not go into HSS mode with the flash aimed straight-ahead, as it should, but only with the flash head aimed down. It did not do this before the shoe/foot replacement. I don't know if it was due to a problem with the repair work (the flash otherwise works as it should) or a result of the accident that broke the shoe/foot somehow misaligning the internal switch that allows the flash to go into HSS mode.)

How good is this? Well, no preflash and an easy way to vary flash
power and reliable shot to shot power.

As noted above, if the flash cannot work in manual mode because of your camera setting, then you are using TTL flash, which necessarily means you are getting the pre-flash. If this were not the case, the camera could not properly adjust the flash exposures because it would have no way of knowing what the proper flash exposure is, either with or without flash compensation.

--
Mark Van Bergh

 

[Mark VB]

http://www.photoluminaire.co.uk/photos/10160718/

All M mode (remove ambient as a variable) AND manual flash set to
1/4th. One is with the flash comp dial on -1, one on 0 and one on
+1.

1/4 power is quite a good choice in that you can get full, 1/2,
1/4, 1/8, 1/16 power using the flash comp dial (and half stops in
between of course).

This is an interesting result, particularly in light of my just sent reply to your other message. As noted therein, I cannot do any tests to confirm your results. But, assuming the camera was indeed in manual exposure mode, and the flash in M mode, your results suggest that use of the flash compensation dial will change the power settings on the flash (did you happen to watch the back of your flash as you did this to see if the power levels indicated there actually changed as you adjusted the flash compensation dial?). If this is the case, it is a feature (if you can call it that) that is not described in the camera or flash instruction manuals (nor one that I have ever tried using).

--
Mark Van Bergh

 

[andrewD2]

Basically manual flash mode does not work at all for the 3600HS.
Setting it has no effect and it still uses TTL metering and a preflash.
The FEC dial was just working as normal.
It is confusing to be able to set a manual power when it does not work.
The option should be greyed out with a 3600HS attached.
It would be a nice manual flash mode if it worked as I had thought.

Andrew

 

[andrewD2]

Also see my reply below, sorry for the confusion.
What was I to think of such results

The 3600HS has no screen, only indicator lights and none of them are a manual power setting. Its a pretty basic flash IMO if you can't set a manual power.

Andrew

 

[Mark VB]

Very informative post.

Just htis past weekend I shot some portraits outdoors and want to
use my 5600 to fill.

I used a light meter to meter the amount of light recieved near the
subject(s). I consistenly got a slower aperature than what was
needed to adequately fill my subjects eyes.

Not sure what you mean here. What exposure mode was your camera set to? I assume you were using the separate light meter to measure only the ambient light level. I think what you are saying is that you had too small an aperture set for the flash to be able to provide enough light to get the results you wanted (lighter eyes, or shadows). You don't give enough information about your shooting parameters (ISO, shutter speed, aperture, distance to the subject) to give specific advice, but if you were at the highest shutter speed possible for flash sync (not including HSS mode), you could try lowering your ISO to get a wider aperture. If you were not in HSS mode, you could try doing that which would allow a faster shutter speed and wider aperture for the ambient light, it it would significantly reduce the effective power of the flash and the available working distance at which the flash would have some effect.

I also would note that in the situation you describe I don't really see the need for use of a separate meter. The camera has a fairly sophisticated meter and, if the situation is within the capabilities of the camera/flash, you may find that the camera left to its own operating parameters (perhaps with a bit of flash compensation added) will give you what you are looking for (for outdoor fill flash, many people prefer setting the flash exposure compensation to anywhere from -1 to -2 to get a more "natural" looking image, but your tastes may vary). But, it is important to remember that there are certain limitations that your system may have and you need to work within those limitations (including the effective power of the flash).

I shot only manual (both camera and flash)
I made adjustments, but never really got the exposure I think I
could have for the photos.

I think that this would be even worse on TTL or ADI as it might be
too bright for the camera to read the preflash.

You won't know unless you try it. See above.

--
Mark Van Bergh

 

[Mark VB]

Basically manual flash mode does not work at all for the 3600HS.
Setting it has no effect and it still uses TTL metering and a
preflash.
The FEC dial was just working as normal.
It is confusing to be able to set a manual power when it does not
work.
The option should be greyed out with a 3600HS attached.
It would be a nice manual flash mode if it worked as I had thought.

I gather then that you were using the manual power settings on the camera, not on the flash. Unfortunately, this controls only the power of the built-in flash, not an external flash. You are right, it would be nice if the camera did not let you make such an adjustment if you have an external flash attached that has no manually adjustable power levels (like the 3600), but I guess the designers never thought of this issue.

--
Mark Van Bergh

 

[Mark VB]

Also see my reply below, sorry for the confusion.
What was I to think of such results
The 3600HS has no screen, only indicator lights and none of them
are a manual power setting. Its a pretty basic flash IMO if you
can't set a manual power.

No problem. Yes, the 3600HS is a fairly basic flash (not including its ability to do wireless flash). It might be nice if Minolta/Sony offered a flash in between the 5600 and 3600, with some of the features of the 5600 and less power. But, I doubt that will ever happen.

--
Mark Van Bergh

 

[bedammit]

Hello,

I apologize for not givng more details.

I was shooting a large group of people (29) and wanted to make sure that their faces were illuminated well. The group was in a partially tree shaded area at approximately 6PM. So the sun had not set but in this area some sunlight was still coming through the trees.

I wanted to use the 5600 on a tripod with the appropriate setting to spread across the entire group and fill in their eyes.

You really can't use the meter in the camera unless you are measuring ambient light. (unless there is something I don't know .. which is entirely possible).

Using the light meter set at ISO 200 1/60th second and tripping the flash at 1/2 power consistently gave me an f/8 reading.
I realize there are three main factors here.

Flash distance, height/placement and power.
Given that..

The flash was approximately 15 feet away and just above eye level of the tallest row of people in the group.

In the end I ended up moving the flash closer and making other adjustments via trial and error.
Which is time consuming.

In the end I got the shot.
However...
There must be something I'm missing as it should have been easier..

Oh!
I dont use TTL or ADI

its garunteed to get a blink with one of my models and with 29 people I prefer to not have to do 10 eye transplants in Photoshop.

BeDammit
--
KM A2
KM 7Hi
KM 7D

28-70mm
70-300mm
300mm f4
HS 5600 D

 

[MikeKeyW]

I have not used the 3600HS D enough to extrapolate any concrete data but have noticed what seems to be a consistent pattern emerging from a small data set. When using my older glass (late 80's through early 00's) there is a consistent tendency towards underexposure. I haven't delved deeper since it's a simple matter to adjust ev or use post processing to compensate (and have too much "Margaritaville" laid backness in me), though if it went the other way and blew out my highlights I'd be screaming bloody murder. All post digital glass on the other hand seems right on the money. If my casual observations proves valid it would appear that should Sony provide firmware updates for the KM 5 & 7d's, the necessary adjustments could be automated and applied as the lens-body-flash dialog establishes ("who's on first?") what's hanging off the body. Then again, the lens problems that some Sigma glass displayed had to be addressed at the hardware level with re-chipping.

I love what today's technology provides us with but kinda miss the days when you had to use what mother nature provided to get that shot you wanted with what you had hanging around you neck at the time. It was amazing, looking back now, on what I used to be able to do with my Nikon SP, one lens and a Gossen Pilot, no zooms, af, ae, md, lsmft. Zooming consisted of getting closer or stepping back, climbing up, down or over, I kept in better shape then too.
--
Mike Mosher, Native Conch

 

[Mark VB]

Hello,

I apologize for not givng more details.

I was shooting a large group of people (29) and wanted to make
sure that their faces were illuminated well. The group was in a
partially tree shaded area at approximately 6PM. So the sun had
not set but in this area some sunlight was still coming through the
trees.

I wanted to use the 5600 on a tripod with the appropriate setting
to spread across the entire group and fill in their eyes.

You really can't use the meter in the camera unless you are
measuring ambient light. (unless there is something I don't know ..
which is entirely possible).

You don't say if the flash was set for wireless mode or was attached via a cable to the hot shoe. I will assume a cable attachment. Using wireless reduces the effective output of the flash.

I disagree with you here about the uselessness of the camera's meter. In fact, you do want to use it for metering the ambient light and then also controlling the flash exposure. For outdoor fill-flash the Minolta/KM system works fairly well, assuming you are within the effective working distance of the flash/camera combination (largely based on the ISO and aperture used, and distance to the subject). You likely would find it far easier to let the camera control everything within the parameters you set, making adjustments as necessary to achieve the desired results. But, as you say, you may get someone blinking from the pre-flash, for which reason you say you don't want to use this method (although you can always get someone blinking, and outdoors the effect of the pre-flash is likely not to cause anyone to blink, as opposed to working indoors, where the pre-flash is noticeably brighter than the surroundings and people's eyes are used to the darker setting, which is why the "bright" pre-flash causes some to blink).

Using the light meter set at ISO 200 1/60th second and tripping the
flash at 1/2 power consistently gave me an f/8 reading.
I realize there are three main factors here.

Doe your light meter have the capability to determine a flash reading separate from an ambient light reading? You need to be sure that what the meter was reading was the flash, and not just the ambient light.

Flash distance, height/placement and power.
Given that..

The flash was approximately 15 feet away and just above eye level
of the tallest row of people in the group.
In the end I ended up moving the flash closer and making other
adjustments via trial and error.
Which is time consuming.

In the end I got the shot.
However...
There must be something I'm missing as it should have been easier..

It sounds like there just was not sufficient flash power for the distance and aperture you were using (you say, flash at half power, f:8, distance to subject 15 feet, ISO 200, but you don't say at what focal length setting on the flash - the wider the focal length the weaker the effective output of the flash), which is why you had to move the flash closer to get the effect you desired. Going to full power might have provided what you wanted without having to move the flash.

Another quick way to figure this out could have been to mount the flash temporarily on the camera with the lens at the aperture and focal length setting you want to use. With both the flash and camera in the manual mode, the back of the flash will give you the working distance for the flash to provide proper exposure. You can then take the flash off the camera, put it on the tripod (making sure to manually set the same zoom setting on the flash head), and then take your picture.

Nonetheless, I do think that for the outdoor situation you describe the chance for getting pre-flash related blinks is not high and you would be better off using the camera's built-in capabilities.

Oh!
I dont use TTL or ADI
its garunteed to get a blink with one of my models and with 29
people I prefer to not have to do 10 eye transplants in Photoshop.

--
Mark Van Bergh