F70EXR ... interesting feature twist ...

Kim Letkeman

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I just finished building the Neat Image profiles for this cam and I noticed something peculiar. Neat Image says that the jpeg compression in HR mode is more severe than in SN mode ... 3bpp versus 4bpp.

Sure enough, it is true. The average 6mp image from the cam is around 2.3MB, while the average 10mp image is around 3.75MB.

WHich is 6:1 and 8:1 compression respectively. Both set to FINE compression and confirmed in OPANDA.

So there you go ... more tricks from Fuji ... how wude ...

--
http://letkeman.net/Photos
http://kimletkeman.blogspot.com
 
I just finished building the Neat Image profiles for this cam and I noticed something peculiar. Neat Image says that the jpeg compression in HR mode is more severe than in SN mode ... 3bpp versus 4bpp.

Sure enough, it is true. The average 6mp image from the cam is around 2.3MB, while the average 10mp image is around 3.75MB.

WHich is 6:1 and 8:1 compression respectively. Both set to FINE compression and confirmed in OPANDA.

So there you go ... more tricks from Fuji ... how wude ...
Hmmm, in that case it really seems that Fuji crippled this cam either intentionally or unintentionally at full resolution.

What would be interesting is to see direct comparisons of the F200 at 12mp vs the F70 at 5mp in good light with both cams at max zoom. One has the larger file magnification and the other has the greater optical magnification. Should be interesting to see if the F200 can make up for its lesser 5x zoom with its slightly better sensor/jpeg processing.

Maybe when the F70 comes out to the local cam stores, I'll bring along my F200 and shoot both at the store under the same conditions.
 
Hmmm, in that case it really seems that Fuji crippled this cam either intentionally or unintentionally at full resolution.
Guess what ... the F200EXR and S200EXR suffer the same fate ... I checked.

In fact, it is a bit worse ... the timings and sizes on the DPR review of the F200EXR show 9:1 and 7.5:1 instead of 8:1 and 6:1 ... but these are all averages, so they change with subject.

But the fact that the compression goes up in HR size is undeniable ...
What would be interesting is to see direct comparisons of the F200 at 12mp vs the F70 at 5mp in good light with both cams at max zoom. One has the larger file magnification and the other has the greater optical magnification. Should be interesting to see if the F200 can make up for its lesser 5x zoom with its slightly better sensor/jpeg processing.
Maybe at 100ISO ... maybe. At 400 and above ... the smoothing effect should wipe away any difference.
Maybe when the F70 comes out to the local cam stores, I'll bring along my F200 and shoot both at the store under the same conditions.
--
http://letkeman.net/Photos
http://kimletkeman.blogspot.com
 
So there you go ... more tricks from Fuji ... how wude ...
That´s not a "trick" or something, but HR-mode simply has much less information per pixel, so you naturally will end up with less bits per pixel with the same compression-level.

JPEG is not a compression with a fixed ratio, so it depends on the content of the image how many bits per pixel you need for a chosen compression-level.

Even if the lens/sensor-combination could provide the same per pixel detail in HR-mode as it can in DR/SN (which is not possible) you would end up with less bpp in almost every case, as big files are easier to compress (large uniform areas cover more pixels without containing any additional information)

The increased NR in HR-mode smooths the picture even more, so another hit on the informations per pixel.
 
That´s not a "trick" or something, but HR-mode simply has much less information per pixel, so you naturally will end up with less bits per pixel with the same compression-level.
I don't understand what you mean by less info per pixel. Can you explain?

I took what Kim said to mean that in HR mode, a higher level of compression is used. Is this so or not? If so, then it is a bit of a trick, swindle, whatever you want to call it. But it reduces quality in any case.
 
I don't understand what you mean by less info per pixel. Can you explain?
Hard to do if you never heard anything about information theory ;)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_theory

I try it with an example: Lets imagine the extremes. If you have just 1 pixel, which can have every color there is simply no way to compress this.

On the other hand lets say we have a really big image which has just a pure color. You can create this image just by storing its size and the color. The compression-ratio would be really great, and it would be even lossless. Additionally you will need less bpp the bigger the image gets, because we don´t need more memory and just store the new size of the image.

In reality of course we don´t have any of this extremes.

Greatly simplified compression works because adjacent pixels tend to have similar colors. If the image is softer the probability of similar colored "clusters" of pixels rises, therefore you can store more pixels in the same amount of memory.

JPEG uses 6 steps to reduce the reduce the needed memory to store the information needed to recreate the image. Only 2 of this steps are lossy, the other 4 are lossless. They will benefit from less detail per pixel and recreate the image with less amount of memory.
I took what Kim said to mean that in HR mode, a higher level of compression is used. Is this so or not?
I don´t know, but it is not possible to conclude the compression level from the filesize (or especially from the bpp)

The only way to compare the compression levels is to compare the quantization tables, which are stored in the JPEG header.

You can also play around a bit with images. Just take an image and store it as a JPEG. Then reduce it´s filesize and store it with the same JPEG-settings. Then upscale it and store it again with the same settings. Then compare the bpp, you will see that they will differ, and usually bigger images have less bpp even with the same JPEG-settings.

You can also try to store a noisy image, and than use some NR and store this. You will see that the image after NR is smaller, as noise is due to it´s random appearance very hard to compress.
 
Ah I understand. What I think you are saying is that the compression level is the same in both cases and that you can't say from the filesize otherwise; is that correct?
The term info per pixel confused me.

Well you may be right. But could it explain the lower quality of the HR pic? In that a higher level of compression is used on it? I think this maybe is what Kim is alluding to.
 
Getting off subject very slightly - in HR mode is the NR fixed or is it dynamic. In other words on a nice bright sunny day with little or no shadows in shot would NR switch off in HR mode or is there always some being applied irrespective ? I've tried various test shots on my F200 but the results vary somewhat and it's difficult to tell. On screen (PC) magnification initially gives the impression of more detail due to the higher file size (as opposed to 6 mp) but prior to pixellation when magnifying the detail seems dirty and full of aberations.

Dave. (UK)
 
Ah I understand. What I think you are saying is that the compression level is the same in both cases and that you can't say from the filesize otherwise; is that correct?
No ... the compression ratio changes because you are now dividing the same image into more pixels. I.e. half the pixels are going to be effectively redundant.

However, since detail moving down to the resolution limit of sensor does, in fact, change (i.e. we can theoretically capture twice as much fine detail) Fuji are actually throwing away some of that detail by not adjusting the jpeg target quality to maintain the same 6:1 average compression ratio, which is determined form the file sizes ...
The term info per pixel confused me.
Yeah ... the explanation did not seem particularly clear to me. The problem is that we are talking about two levels of quantization of the same image ... but we also have the fact that adjacent pixels are of the same color, which makes them almost redundant ... but not quite.
Well you may be right. But could it explain the lower quality of the HR pic? In that a higher level of compression is used on it? I think this maybe is what Kim is alluding to.
The higher compression ratio is putting very fine details at risk, and the NR is having its way with them ... possibly as a direct consequence.

--
http://letkeman.net/Photos
http://kimletkeman.blogspot.com
 
Getting off subject very slightly - in HR mode is the NR fixed or is it dynamic. In other words on a nice bright sunny day with little or no shadows in shot would NR switch off in HR mode or is there always some being applied irrespective ?
DPR showed that it is always active ... this is necessary because 12mp is too many for a sensor that size. However, Fuji go very heavy handed on distant foliage and grass, and hair in shadow, and so on ...
I've tried various test shots on my F200 but the results vary somewhat and it's difficult to tell. On screen (PC) magnification initially gives the impression of more detail due to the higher file size (as opposed to 6 mp) but prior to pixellation when magnifying the detail seems dirty and full of aberations.
It is definitely smeared and the edges are full of artifacts. I find that equivalent 5mp images always look cleaner. I suppose more testing is required for a definitive opinion, but HR never really looks good on the F70 ...

Some say it is great on the F200 ... but DPR were clear that 6mp was the better mode.

--
http://letkeman.net/Photos
http://kimletkeman.blogspot.com
 
Ah I understand. What I think you are saying is that the compression level is the same in both cases and that you can't say from the filesize otherwise; is that correct?
No ... the compression ratio changes because you are now dividing the same image into more pixels. I.e. half the pixels are going to be effectively redundant.

However, since detail moving down to the resolution limit of sensor does, in fact, change (i.e. we can theoretically capture twice as much fine detail) Fuji are actually throwing away some of that detail by not adjusting the jpeg target quality to maintain the same 6:1 average compression ratio, which is determined form the file sizes ...
Now that is what I thought you meant to begin with, which I believe is at odds with what EXR says.
The term info per pixel confused me.
Yeah ... the explanation did not seem particularly clear to me. The problem is that we are talking about two levels of quantization of the same image ... but we also have the fact that adjacent pixels are of the same color, which makes them almost redundant ... but not quite.
I suppose if the pic to be taken had large areas of very similar detail then it can be compressed very well (similar to adpcm coding with sound). But, all that aside, are you saying that the compression is more lossy in HR mode?
Well you may be right. But could it explain the lower quality of the HR pic? In that a higher level of compression is used on it? I think this maybe is what Kim is alluding to.
The higher compression ratio is putting very fine details at risk, and the NR is having its way with them ... possibly as a direct consequence.
Ah, higher ratio, more lossy, yes?
 
Ah I understand. What I think you are saying is that the compression level is the same in both cases and that you can't say from the filesize otherwise; is that correct?
No ... the compression ratio changes because you are now dividing the same image into more pixels. I.e. half the pixels are going to be effectively redundant.

However, since detail moving down to the resolution limit of sensor does, in fact, change (i.e. we can theoretically capture twice as much fine detail) Fuji are actually throwing away some of that detail by not adjusting the jpeg target quality to maintain the same 6:1 average compression ratio, which is determined form the file sizes ...
Now that is what I thought you meant to begin with, which I believe is at odds with what EXR says.
I think he was saying that the same image shot in two resolutions will be compressed more easily in the larger size because there is more redundant data. For simple subjects, that is entirely true. For very complex and detailed subjects, that is not true. Assuming, of course, that the lense can resolve the extra detail in the first place.
I suppose if the pic to be taken had large areas of very similar detail then it can be compressed very well (similar to adpcm coding with sound). But, all that aside, are you saying that the compression is more lossy in HR mode?
Well ... it might not be. Perhaps what EXR is really saying is that the compression ratio will in fact come up when shooting a complex subject. I.e. they algorithm does not change, just the view on the complexity of the subject. So testing would be needed on a subject of sufficient complexity to drive the algorithm back to 6:1 compression.

That would be an interesting test ...

Of course, if we find that Fuji really are compressing even complex subjects more at HR mode, then I would not be all that pleased ... HR mode has enough issues already with the NR ...
The higher compression ratio is putting very fine details at risk, and the NR is having its way with them ... possibly as a direct consequence.
Ah, higher ratio, more lossy, yes?
Yes ... 10:1 is more lossy than 6:1 ... in fact, FINE is 6:1 in the F11 and NORMAL is 12:1 ... so if HR were to suddenly average 10:1 in FINE, that would be pretty close to the old NORMAL.

I suppose we need to see some heavy testing now :-)

--
http://letkeman.net/Photos
http://kimletkeman.blogspot.com
 
with F30 are very pleased that after more than 1 years use and now are looking for a camera that has a more wide angle, and my indecisone is among TZ7 Panasonic or Fuji F70EXR, which of the two cameras could be the ideal companion for Fuji F30?
Thanks to all
--
Sony P200 - Fuji F30
 
Ah I understand. What I think you are saying is that the compression level is the same in both cases and that you can't say from the filesize otherwise; is that correct?
Basically a softer image will (usually) lead to less bpp with the same JPEG-compression-factor used.

As the HR-image is visibly softer per pixel it´s clear that filesize couldn´t be twice as much as DR/HR. If the filesize would be twice as high, they in fact would have decreased the lossy compression in HR-mode.
Well you may be right. But could it explain the lower quality of the HR pic?
There are several reasons why HR-mode can´t deliver the per pixel detail of the 6MP-mode.

The first, and I guess especially with the F70 most significant reason is the lens which simply isn´t sharp enough to project a clear image on the tiny photosites. That´s quite common with almost all tiny superzooms, most of them are put into shame even by the old S6500, even in their lowest sensitivity, although they have much higher nominal resolutions.

From what I have seen there seems to be hardly any more detail available on the F70 in HR-mode.

The F200 is a bit different, as the lens is capable to deliver more than the sensor can capture in 6MP-mode. There is visilby more detail in HR-mode, especially in ISO100-200 and high contrast detail stays more defined up the ISO-range (low-contrast detail is being eaten up by NR after ISO400), but the F200 also can´t deliver as much detail as the double resolution would be able to do theoretically.

Next thing is the low pass filter, which of course stays the same. Therefore in HR-mode it is stronger "per pixel" (1 "pixel" in the binning-modes is the area of 2 photosites)

Also NR is stronger in HR-mode, but this shouldn´t affect high contrast detail much, only low contrast detail is blurred away. But of course this improves compression a lot, as the uniform areas the NR produces are much easier to compress.

In situations where mainly one primary color is involved HR-mode can´t add any real resolution, as 2 same colored photosites are always next to each other and the distance to the next pair in the same color is quite big.

The cause and effect chain is somewhat backwards.

It´s not the higher compression, which causes soft images and less per pixel detail.

It´s the missing per pixel detail which causes a higher compression ratio even at the same compression level.

You can also try to use Normal instead of fine compression. Although the compression is much higher you will struggle to see any difference. So it´s not the compression eating details away.
 
Basically a softer image will (usually) lead to less bpp with the same JPEG-compression-factor used.

As the HR-image is visibly softer per pixel it´s clear that filesize couldn´t be twice as much as DR/HR. If the filesize would be twice as high, they in fact would have decreased the lossy compression in HR-mode.
Ah but is it softer because of the lens? Or is the compression higher (which would be nuts on the part of Fuji, so something they might do)? Because I'm sure you could pick the right kind of scene to push the compression to its limit in both 10M & 5M to compare. As Kim says, it needs some testing.
It´s not the higher compression, which causes soft images and less per pixel detail.

It´s the missing per pixel detail which causes a higher compression ratio even at the same compression level.

You can also try to use Normal instead of fine compression. Although the compression is much higher you will struggle to see any difference. So it´s not the compression eating details away.
You're probably right but it would be interesting to find out for sure.
 
Ah but is it softer because of the lens?
It´s softer because of the lens, the higher NR and the EXR-pattern which isn´t optimal for HR-shooting.
Because I'm sure you could pick the right kind of scene to push the compression to its limit in both 10M & 5M to compare.
If could be possible if you could disable NR, as the random noise-patterns are like an enemy for compression algorithms, but as you can´t do this I highly doubt that you can find a scene where a 12MP image really takes twice as much space.
You're probably right but it would be interesting to find out for sure.
Just shoot with normal compression instead of fine. If the theory is right, that the soft image is a result of the (very slightly) higher compression, another doubling of the compression ratio would make the image really awful.

Actually you can hardly spot a difference between fine and normal even in 100% and have to zoom in even further to really see the difference.

Besides: To high JPEG-compression doesn´t result in a soft image but rather a tiled image.
 

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