F707 flash WB problems, etc.

[Andy58717]

Here are some preliminary test results for the white balance problem:

To eliminate as many variables as possible, I tested under the following conditions:
1) The F707 was mounted on a tripod and a remote control was used.
2) The room was completely dark.
3) Manual mode was used with f2 and 1/40.
4) Only the internal flash was used.
5) WB was set to auto
The results:

After taking several shots with the same settings, some had correct white balance and some had a pronounced cyan cast (or you could think of it as a lack of red). The F707 (as well as other recent Sony digicams) supposed to use a preset WB for flash and ignore the WB setting. If you set the WB before a flash picture to preset, indoor, or outdoor and look at the EXIF later, it always shows auto WB.
Some additional thoughts:

1) This appears to be a firmware bug. However, I don't want to jump to conclusions. I will do some more testing tonight.

2) All recent Sony digicams use a flash memory for their firmware. This means the firmware is upgradeable although I wouldn't know their methodology (i.e. user upgradeable or service center only).

3) Any picture with a cyan cast can be very easily fixed. Simply turn up the red in Photoshop, Paint Shop Pro, etc. Try it with one of Bryan's samples.

4) Flash photography is just not a strong point of the F707 anyway. Take a look at the HVL-F1000 (which is your only choice for an external flash). It's really not a very good system.

BTW, the flash level was set to maximum (I tried all 3 settings) for the pictures that showed the greatest variations of WB. In examining the RGB values of a white wall, only the red changes significantly from picture to picture. This means there is little (if any) variation of the flash intensity. Also, I have not tried red eye reduction flash yet.

Regarding the WB calibration:

There is calibration data stored in an EEPROM (re-writeable) memory for many parameters including the WB. There is a specific area for flash WB data. A special jig called a "flash adjustment box" is used for this calibration. However, even if the calibration data was somehow incorrect, it wouldn't explain the variations in the WB when the flash is used. That is why I believe that a firmware bug may be causing this problem.

I am not happy about this problem and I sincerely hope Sony will address it. However, this problem can only happen when the flash is used. For anybody that does post-processing of their pictures using Photoshop, etc., WB is easily corrected. This is at least some consolation. If you had a digicam with focus problems for example, that would be far worse because that cannot be corrected.

 

[Dave64480]

This is BS on the part of Sony. I just canceled my Sears order.

Here are some preliminary test results for the white balance problem:
To eliminate as many variables as possible, I tested under the
following conditions:
1) The F707 was mounted on a tripod and a remote control was used.
2) The room was completely dark.
3) Manual mode was used with f2 and 1/40.
4) Only the internal flash was used.
5) WB was set to auto
The results:
After taking several shots with the same settings, some had correct
white balance and some had a pronounced cyan cast (or you could
think of it as a lack of red). The F707 (as well as other recent
Sony digicams) supposed to use a preset WB for flash and ignore the
WB setting. If you set the WB before a flash picture to preset,
indoor, or outdoor and look at the EXIF later, it always shows auto
WB.
Some additional thoughts:
1) This appears to be a firmware bug. However, I don't want to jump
to conclusions. I will do some more testing tonight.
2) All recent Sony digicams use a flash memory for their firmware.
This means the firmware is upgradeable although I wouldn't know
their methodology (i.e. user upgradeable or service center only).
3) Any picture with a cyan cast can be very easily fixed. Simply
turn up the red in Photoshop, Paint Shop Pro, etc. Try it with one
of Bryan's samples.
4) Flash photography is just not a strong point of the F707 anyway.
Take a look at the HVL-F1000 (which is your only choice for an
external flash). It's really not a very good system.
BTW, the flash level was set to maximum (I tried all 3 settings)
for the pictures that showed the greatest variations of WB. In
examining the RGB values of a white wall, only the red changes
significantly from picture to picture. This means there is little
(if any) variation of the flash intensity. Also, I have not tried
red eye reduction flash yet.

Regarding the WB calibration:
There is calibration data stored in an EEPROM (re-writeable) memory
for many parameters including the WB. There is a specific area for
flash WB data. A special jig called a "flash adjustment box" is
used for this calibration. However, even if the calibration data
was somehow incorrect, it wouldn't explain the variations in the WB
when the flash is used. That is why I believe that a firmware bug
may be causing this problem.
I am not happy about this problem and I sincerely hope Sony will
address it. However, this problem can only happen when the flash is
used. For anybody that does post-processing of their pictures using
Photoshop, etc., WB is easily corrected. This is at least some
consolation. If you had a digicam with focus problems for example,
that would be far worse because that cannot be corrected.

 

[Frank C.]

Here are some preliminary test results for the white balance problem:
To eliminate as many variables as possible, I tested under the
following conditions:
1) The F707 was mounted on a tripod and a remote control was used.
2) The room was completely dark.
3) Manual mode was used with f2 and 1/40.
4) Only the internal flash was used.
5) WB was set to auto
The results:
After taking several shots with the same settings, some had correct
white balance and some had a pronounced cyan cast (or you could
think of it as a lack of red). The F707 (as well as other recent
Sony digicams) supposed to use a preset WB for flash and ignore the
WB setting. If you set the WB before a flash picture to preset,
indoor, or outdoor and look at the EXIF later, it always shows auto
WB.

Andy, if I'm understanding what you're saying correctly, you took
multiple pictures using the same setup each time and you obtained
varying results? This doesn't make any sense. You should be getting
identical ( or quasi identical ) results each time and if you don't,
you should return the camera immediately or or have it serviced.
This is very abnormal behaviour.

Some additional thoughts:
1) This appears to be a firmware bug. However, I don't want to jump
to conclusions. I will do some more testing tonight.
2) All recent Sony digicams use a flash memory for their firmware.
This means the firmware is upgradeable although I wouldn't know
their methodology (i.e. user upgradeable or service center only).
3) Any picture with a cyan cast can be very easily fixed. Simply
turn up the red in Photoshop, Paint Shop Pro, etc. Try it with one
of Bryan's samples.
4) Flash photography is just not a strong point of the F707 anyway.
Take a look at the HVL-F1000 (which is your only choice for an
external flash). It's really not a very good system.
BTW, the flash level was set to maximum (I tried all 3 settings)
for the pictures that showed the greatest variations of WB. In
examining the RGB values of a white wall, only the red changes
significantly from picture to picture. This means there is little
(if any) variation of the flash intensity. Also, I have not tried
red eye reduction flash yet.

Regarding the WB calibration:
There is calibration data stored in an EEPROM (re-writeable) memory
for many parameters including the WB. There is a specific area for
flash WB data. A special jig called a "flash adjustment box" is
used for this calibration. However, even if the calibration data
was somehow incorrect, it wouldn't explain the variations in the WB
when the flash is used. That is why I believe that a firmware bug
may be causing this problem.
I am not happy about this problem and I sincerely hope Sony will
address it. However, this problem can only happen when the flash is
used. For anybody that does post-processing of their pictures using
Photoshop, etc., WB is easily corrected. This is at least some
consolation. If you had a digicam with focus problems for example,
that would be far worse because that cannot be corrected.

 

[Andy58717]

You are understanding correctly. However, it is most likely that all F707's would exhibit the same behavior. I doubt there is currently a service fix for this problem. Since I don't take many flash pictures, I could probably live with it for now although I will pursue this matter with my contacts at Sony.

Andy, if I'm understanding what you're saying correctly, you took
multiple pictures using the same setup each time and you obtained
varying results? This doesn't make any sense. You should be getting
identical ( or quasi identical ) results each time and if you don't,
you should return the camera immediately or or have it serviced.
This is very abnormal behaviour.

 

[George Jensen]

Hi Andy

Did you use the white card option when using manual flash?

My 707 is on order, but since the problem is correctable in Photoshop, I'm not overly worried. Like you, most of my shots will not involve the flash.

I look forward to your findings all the same.

Regards

George

Andy, if I'm understanding what you're saying correctly, you took
multiple pictures using the same setup each time and you obtained
varying results? This doesn't make any sense. You should be getting
identical ( or quasi identical ) results each time and if you don't,
you should return the camera immediately or or have it serviced.
This is very abnormal behaviour.

 

[TraceyS]

That's pretty much my outlook. At this point i'm not worried since i can correct it in PS.

Might be a pain on huge shoots, but well, i can live with it.

That said, i haven't noticed it that much, but mainly cause i haven't taken multiple shots at a time yet. I honestly am so busy that i can't even play with the camera!

I'll have the opportunity on Sunday at a Birthday party...

Tracey

Did you use the white card option when using manual flash?

My 707 is on order, but since the problem is correctable in
Photoshop, I'm not overly worried. Like you, most of my shots will
not involve the flash.

I look forward to your findings all the same.

Regards

George

Andy, if I'm understanding what you're saying correctly, you took
multiple pictures using the same setup each time and you obtained
varying results? This doesn't make any sense. You should be getting
identical ( or quasi identical ) results each time and if you don't,
you should return the camera immediately or or have it serviced.
This is very abnormal behaviour.

 

[Nikonism]

Andy:

There are 2 light sources when doing slow sync flash works. One is the environment light, the other is the flash. The flash has a WB quite near the day light, while the environment light may vary. The camera can only measure the WB of the environment light , it has no idea what the color tempreture of the COMBINATION of the two light sources may be. Assume we are taking pictures indoor , and the light source is quite warm ( which is a typical situation) , the WB of the comination of all light sources may vary from the WB of indoor(when room lighting is dominating ) to day light(when flash is the dominating light source ). If the latter is the case , we will get cooler result(blueish ) than we like , since the camera THOUGHT the light out there is warmer .

As for the test you've done , it might be that
1. the camera tries to read the WB of the room lighting ,
2. since the room is complete dark , the reading varies.
3. the camera tries to correct the image according to the WB reading it got .

4. since the raw images it records are all the same , different WB readings lead to different results.

I suggest that you repeat the experiment with the WB set to day light(or out door ) to see what happens.

Just my thoughts.
Jeff .

Here are some preliminary test results for the white balance problem:
To eliminate as many variables as possible, I tested under the
following conditions:
1) The F707 was mounted on a tripod and a remote control was used.
2) The room was completely dark.
3) Manual mode was used with f2 and 1/40.
4) Only the internal flash was used.
5) WB was set to auto
The results:
After taking several shots with the same settings, some had correct
white balance and some had a pronounced cyan cast (or you could
think of it as a lack of red). The F707 (as well as other recent
Sony digicams) supposed to use a preset WB for flash and ignore the
WB setting. If you set the WB before a flash picture to preset,
indoor, or outdoor and look at the EXIF later, it always shows auto
WB.
Some additional thoughts:
1) This appears to be a firmware bug. However, I don't want to jump
to conclusions. I will do some more testing tonight.
2) All recent Sony digicams use a flash memory for their firmware.
This means the firmware is upgradeable although I wouldn't know
their methodology (i.e. user upgradeable or service center only).
3) Any picture with a cyan cast can be very easily fixed. Simply
turn up the red in Photoshop, Paint Shop Pro, etc. Try it with one
of Bryan's samples.
4) Flash photography is just not a strong point of the F707 anyway.
Take a look at the HVL-F1000 (which is your only choice for an
external flash). It's really not a very good system.
BTW, the flash level was set to maximum (I tried all 3 settings)
for the pictures that showed the greatest variations of WB. In
examining the RGB values of a white wall, only the red changes
significantly from picture to picture. This means there is little
(if any) variation of the flash intensity. Also, I have not tried
red eye reduction flash yet.

Regarding the WB calibration:
There is calibration data stored in an EEPROM (re-writeable) memory
for many parameters including the WB. There is a specific area for
flash WB data. A special jig called a "flash adjustment box" is
used for this calibration. However, even if the calibration data
was somehow incorrect, it wouldn't explain the variations in the WB
when the flash is used. That is why I believe that a firmware bug
may be causing this problem.
I am not happy about this problem and I sincerely hope Sony will
address it. However, this problem can only happen when the flash is
used. For anybody that does post-processing of their pictures using
Photoshop, etc., WB is easily corrected. This is at least some
consolation. If you had a digicam with focus problems for example,
that would be far worse because that cannot be corrected.

 

[Rich_1]

Andy:

There are 2 light sources when doing slow sync flash works. One is
the environment light, the other is the flash. The flash has a WB
quite near the day light, while the environment light may vary. The
camera can only measure the WB of the environment light , it has no
idea what the color tempreture of the COMBINATION of the two light
sources may be. Assume we are taking pictures indoor , and the
light source is quite warm ( which is a typical situation) , the WB
of the comination of all light sources may vary from the WB of
indoor(when room lighting is dominating ) to day light(when flash
is the dominating light source ). If the latter is the case , we
will get cooler result(blueish ) than we like , since the camera
THOUGHT the light out there is warmer .

As for the test you've done , it might be that
1. the camera tries to read the WB of the room lighting ,
2. since the room is complete dark , the reading varies.
3. the camera tries to correct the image according to the WB
reading it got .
4. since the raw images it records are all the same , different WB
readings lead to different results.

I suggest that you repeat the experiment with the WB set to day
light(or out door ) to see what happens.

Done! It's still an issue. I tried fifty in each of four WB modes with the same random results.

Anyone else?

Rich

 

[Andy58717]

Hi Jeff,

One thing I noticed about the F707 that is a little bit strange:

You can change the WB setting even in forced flash mode. However, when you view the pictures, any picture taken with the flash shows the WB set to auto. Also, I confirmed that the WB setting seems to be ignored if flash is used. I would be happy if one of the WB presets did the trick.

Regards,

Andy

There are 2 light sources when doing slow sync flash works. One is
the environment light, the other is the flash. The flash has a WB
quite near the day light, while the environment light may vary. The
camera can only measure the WB of the environment light , it has no
idea what the color tempreture of the COMBINATION of the two light
sources may be. Assume we are taking pictures indoor , and the
light source is quite warm ( which is a typical situation) , the WB
of the comination of all light sources may vary from the WB of
indoor(when room lighting is dominating ) to day light(when flash
is the dominating light source ). If the latter is the case , we
will get cooler result(blueish ) than we like , since the camera
THOUGHT the light out there is warmer .

As for the test you've done , it might be that
1. the camera tries to read the WB of the room lighting ,
2. since the room is complete dark , the reading varies.
3. the camera tries to correct the image according to the WB
reading it got .
4. since the raw images it records are all the same , different WB
readings lead to different results.

I suggest that you repeat the experiment with the WB set to day
light(or out door ) to see what happens.

Just my thoughts.
Jeff .

Here are some preliminary test results for the white balance problem:
To eliminate as many variables as possible, I tested under the
following conditions:
1) The F707 was mounted on a tripod and a remote control was used.
2) The room was completely dark.
3) Manual mode was used with f2 and 1/40.
4) Only the internal flash was used.
5) WB was set to auto
The results:
After taking several shots with the same settings, some had correct
white balance and some had a pronounced cyan cast (or you could
think of it as a lack of red). The F707 (as well as other recent
Sony digicams) supposed to use a preset WB for flash and ignore the
WB setting. If you set the WB before a flash picture to preset,
indoor, or outdoor and look at the EXIF later, it always shows auto
WB.
Some additional thoughts:
1) This appears to be a firmware bug. However, I don't want to jump
to conclusions. I will do some more testing tonight.
2) All recent Sony digicams use a flash memory for their firmware.
This means the firmware is upgradeable although I wouldn't know
their methodology (i.e. user upgradeable or service center only).
3) Any picture with a cyan cast can be very easily fixed. Simply
turn up the red in Photoshop, Paint Shop Pro, etc. Try it with one
of Bryan's samples.
4) Flash photography is just not a strong point of the F707 anyway.
Take a look at the HVL-F1000 (which is your only choice for an
external flash). It's really not a very good system.
BTW, the flash level was set to maximum (I tried all 3 settings)
for the pictures that showed the greatest variations of WB. In
examining the RGB values of a white wall, only the red changes
significantly from picture to picture. This means there is little
(if any) variation of the flash intensity. Also, I have not tried
red eye reduction flash yet.

Regarding the WB calibration:
There is calibration data stored in an EEPROM (re-writeable) memory
for many parameters including the WB. There is a specific area for
flash WB data. A special jig called a "flash adjustment box" is
used for this calibration. However, even if the calibration data
was somehow incorrect, it wouldn't explain the variations in the WB
when the flash is used. That is why I believe that a firmware bug
may be causing this problem.
I am not happy about this problem and I sincerely hope Sony will
address it. However, this problem can only happen when the flash is
used. For anybody that does post-processing of their pictures using
Photoshop, etc., WB is easily corrected. This is at least some
consolation. If you had a digicam with focus problems for example,
that would be far worse because that cannot be corrected.

 

[Andy58717]

Hi George,

The target for my test shots was the corner of a room with a (almost) white wall and a (almost) white closet door. I will post the pictures in a few minutes under a new thread.

In the test shots, most of them have good white balance (maybe 20-25% bad). I am not happy about this mostly as a matter of principle. However, a picture with the WB off sure beats an out of focus picture!

Best regards,

Andy

Did you use the white card option when using manual flash?

My 707 is on order, but since the problem is correctable in
Photoshop, I'm not overly worried. Like you, most of my shots will
not involve the flash.

I look forward to your findings all the same.

Regards

George

Andy, if I'm understanding what you're saying correctly, you took
multiple pictures using the same setup each time and you obtained
varying results? This doesn't make any sense. You should be getting
identical ( or quasi identical ) results each time and if you don't,
you should return the camera immediately or or have it serviced.
This is very abnormal behaviour.

 

[Todd Meyers]

I know Phil doesn't read all the posts, but I'm surprised he hasn't commented at all on this. The story is really taking on a life of it's own.

Are forums at other sites full of the same stories?

Todd

The target for my test shots was the corner of a room with a
(almost) white wall and a (almost) white closet door. I will post
the pictures in a few minutes under a new thread.
In the test shots, most of them have good white balance (maybe
20-25% bad). I am not happy about this mostly as a matter of
principle. However, a picture with the WB off sure beats an out of
focus picture!

Best regards,

Andy

Did you use the white card option when using manual flash?

My 707 is on order, but since the problem is correctable in
Photoshop, I'm not overly worried. Like you, most of my shots will
not involve the flash.

I look forward to your findings all the same.

Regards

George

Andy, if I'm understanding what you're saying correctly, you took
multiple pictures using the same setup each time and you obtained
varying results? This doesn't make any sense. You should be getting
identical ( or quasi identical ) results each time and if you don't,
you should return the camera immediately or or have it serviced.
This is very abnormal behaviour.

 

[Pondria]

Or, SONY is just stubborn.
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1009&message=360735

Here are some preliminary test results for the white balance problem:
To eliminate as many variables as possible, I tested under the
following conditions:
1) The F707 was mounted on a tripod and a remote control was used.
2) The room was completely dark.
3) Manual mode was used with f2 and 1/40.
4) Only the internal flash was used.
5) WB was set to auto
The results:
After taking several shots with the same settings, some had correct
white balance and some had a pronounced cyan cast (or you could
think of it as a lack of red). The F707 (as well as other recent
Sony digicams) supposed to use a preset WB for flash and ignore the
WB setting. If you set the WB before a flash picture to preset,
indoor, or outdoor and look at the EXIF later, it always shows auto
WB.
Some additional thoughts:
1) This appears to be a firmware bug. However, I don't want to jump
to conclusions. I will do some more testing tonight.
2) All recent Sony digicams use a flash memory for their firmware.
This means the firmware is upgradeable although I wouldn't know
their methodology (i.e. user upgradeable or service center only).
3) Any picture with a cyan cast can be very easily fixed. Simply
turn up the red in Photoshop, Paint Shop Pro, etc. Try it with one
of Bryan's samples.
4) Flash photography is just not a strong point of the F707 anyway.
Take a look at the HVL-F1000 (which is your only choice for an
external flash). It's really not a very good system.
BTW, the flash level was set to maximum (I tried all 3 settings)
for the pictures that showed the greatest variations of WB. In
examining the RGB values of a white wall, only the red changes
significantly from picture to picture. This means there is little
(if any) variation of the flash intensity. Also, I have not tried
red eye reduction flash yet.

Regarding the WB calibration:
There is calibration data stored in an EEPROM (re-writeable) memory
for many parameters including the WB. There is a specific area for
flash WB data. A special jig called a "flash adjustment box" is
used for this calibration. However, even if the calibration data
was somehow incorrect, it wouldn't explain the variations in the WB
when the flash is used. That is why I believe that a firmware bug
may be causing this problem.
I am not happy about this problem and I sincerely hope Sony will
address it. However, this problem can only happen when the flash is
used. For anybody that does post-processing of their pictures using
Photoshop, etc., WB is easily corrected. This is at least some
consolation. If you had a digicam with focus problems for example,
that would be far worse because that cannot be corrected.