F700 R sensor from Camera Shot FOUND!

[David314]

From camera jpeg

http://www.pbase.com/image/23281546

hold on to your hat

http://www.pbase.com/image/23281517

yep a jpeg from the camera, can you guess where it is from? Yep, extracted jpeg thumbnail from the raw file. This looks almost exactly like what the raw converter spits out.

Yes, the camera does process the R sensor to create an image! .

But..... before you get all warm and fuzzy,

This is the R sensor shot extracted from the raw file. That is right,

JUST THE R SENSOR >

http://www.pbase.com/image/23281557

So in order to get image from the camera to have the same exposure i have to shoot like this

http://www.pbase.com/image/23281614

Anyone want to figure out how much less sensitive the R is than the S sensor?

But anway, don't take my word for it, F700 owners, you can duplicate this experiment!

Overexpose, and i mean overexpose an image, and shoot it in jpeg and raw. Compare the images in the finepix viewer. That lets you see the thumbnail from the raw file.

David

 

[David314]

n/t

 

[Box Brownie]

Hi David

Sorry, I have not (yet?) tried the same test.

Just wanted to reply so that you did not feel you were shouting in the dark.

: )

 

[RMH]

according to this website

http://www.finepix.de/en/15_1100_1043667345_1_4.html

Cameras with the new Super CCD SR can achieve a contast range which lies between that of slide film (5 to 6 aperture stops) and that of negative film (7 to 9 aperture stops).

From camera jpeg

http://www.pbase.com/image/23281546

hold on to your hat

http://www.pbase.com/image/23281517

yep a jpeg from the camera, can you guess where it is from? Yep,
extracted jpeg thumbnail from the raw file. This looks almost
exactly like what the raw converter spits out.

Yes, the camera does process the R sensor to create an image! .

But..... before you get all warm and fuzzy,

This is the R sensor shot extracted from the raw file. That is right,

JUST THE R SENSOR >

http://www.pbase.com/image/23281557

So in order to get image from the camera to have the same exposure
i have to shoot like this

http://www.pbase.com/image/23281614

Anyone want to figure out how much less sensitive the R is than the
S sensor?

But anway, don't take my word for it, F700 owners, you can
duplicate this experiment!

Overexpose, and i mean overexpose an image, and shoot it in jpeg
and raw. Compare the images in the finepix viewer. That lets you
see the thumbnail from the raw file.

David

 

[David314]

unless my math or understanding are wrong (and they could be )

R sensor .77 shutter speed

is S sensor at .04 shutter speed

.77 sec iso 200
.38 sec iso 100 1 stop 1 ev
.14 sec iso 50 2 stops 2 ev
.07 sec iso 25 3 stops 3 ev
.04 sec iso 12.5 4 stops 4 ev

So to get the same R image that you get from the S sensor, decrease shutter speed by factor of approx 16 or so or open the aperture by 4 stops

So the R sensor can increase the S sensor dynamic range by 4 stops.

Please correct me if i am wrong, i do not have 20 years experience at this thing like some on this forum.

David

 

[BigWaveDave]

unless my math or understanding are wrong (and they could be )

R sensor .77 shutter speed

is S sensor at .04 shutter speed

.77 sec iso 200
.38 sec iso 100 1 stop 1 ev
.14 sec iso 50 2 stops 2 ev
.07 sec iso 25 3 stops 3 ev
.04 sec iso 12.5 4 stops 4 ev

So to get the same R image that you get from the S sensor, decrease
shutter speed by factor of approx 16 or so or open the aperture by
4 stops

So the R sensor can increase the S sensor dynamic range by 4 stops.

Please correct me if i am wrong, i do not have 20 years experience
at this thing like some on this forum.

The formula for calculating EV is:

EV = log2 ((aperture² / shutterspeed) / (ISO / 100))

so if we assume you used an aperture of f4, we'd get:

R sensor = EV 3.38
S sensor = EV 7.64

--
BigWaveDave

 

[David314]

I didn't know there was a direct relation betwen EV and shutter speed aperture, ISO.

I was tring to say, that it was a delta in the table below.

that is +1EV per 1/2 the ISO which i did know, (learned it a few hours ago

but your formula agrees about 4 stops, 4 EV's whatever unit you want to use in relative sensitivity between the S and R sensor.

That agrees with what Dave Coffin uses in his DCRAW program to normalize the R to the S, that is he multiplies the raw R value by 16.

Thanks for the info!

David

 

[Raist3d]

David314 wrote:
[del]

but your formula agrees about 4 stops, 4 EV's whatever unit you
want to use in relative sensitivity between the S and R sensor.

That agrees with what Dave Coffin uses in his DCRAW program to
normalize the R to the S, that is he multiplies the raw R value by
16.

Thanks for the info!

David

The biggest irony in all this is that I was always mad at Fuji's marketing deparmtent for hyping the Super CCD SR results so much, and now with all this investigation you have done it's clear to me that marketing was actually doing their job! How ironic, that it all seems to move now back to the engineers (or the firmware writters to be more specific).

• Raist

 

[David314]

Raist,

Did you repeat any of my experiments? I was hoping that someone would do this and tell me i am not crazy. It is still amazing to me.

This last tidbit of info, the R sensor in the thumbnail tells me one thing.

The camera has the stuff to put the R sensor into the image at least as well as the included raw converter program but......

it was not turned on,

blame it on firmware, hardware, etc. I suspect that somewhere in the Fuji complex there are some cameras that work properly, (engineering probabaly with a few extra wires) and that on the way to production, something slipped

So, the production cameras go out and the Fuji says to the reviewers, you are not reviewing them properly, our cameras back in the lab work fine!

I am guessing by now, Fuji realizes that there is a problem. I was guessing the new HSV2 software would really start people going, but wait, my camera doesn't look anything like that?

The question what will Fuji do about it?

Will we quietly see some new F700 cameras slip into production that miraculously have the R sensor turned on?

Will they recall the camera?

Will they deny everything and write off the whole sensor?

Theories abound in my mind.....but before i alert the tabloids, please please someone confirm my experiments.

The last thing i want to do is say something to the world that isn't true because i made a mistake writing software at 2am in the morning.

David

 

[Raist3d]

David,

I'll take time to do testing tomorrow then. Sorry for all delays but I have been "busy" playing Legacy Of Kain: Defiance, which I just finished (Ps2).

I also thought about the possibility of a whole batch of F700's - the first ones - not having/using the R sensor given your observations, but later models doing so.

If that's the case, really, Fuji should just recall them and replace them. The least they can do. If I find out this is the problem, you bet I am "fixing it" under warranty.

Not to mention a potential lawsuit if this is all true of course (no, not necessarily me, but I can see it)

• Raist

 

[George Chen]

Yep, when I first saw some split images from marf's program a few months ago, the picture from the R sensor looked 3-4 stops darker.

From camera jpeg

http://www.pbase.com/image/23281546

hold on to your hat

http://www.pbase.com/image/23281517

yep a jpeg from the camera, can you guess where it is from? Yep,
extracted jpeg thumbnail from the raw file. This looks almost
exactly like what the raw converter spits out.

Yes, the camera does process the R sensor to create an image! .

But..... before you get all warm and fuzzy,

This is the R sensor shot extracted from the raw file. That is right,

JUST THE R SENSOR >

http://www.pbase.com/image/23281557

So in order to get image from the camera to have the same exposure
i have to shoot like this

http://www.pbase.com/image/23281614

Anyone want to figure out how much less sensitive the R is than the
S sensor?

But anway, don't take my word for it, F700 owners, you can
duplicate this experiment!

Overexpose, and i mean overexpose an image, and shoot it in jpeg
and raw. Compare the images in the finepix viewer. That lets you
see the thumbnail from the raw file.

David

 

[David314]

Yes George, those original split images were amazaing.

Marf was working with one hand behind his back, he didn't have the camera.

same old stuff, different conclusions, some saw R sensor in the images, shoot i bought one,

but now i see that as noise and no R sensor - because i have seen the R sensor in raw converted and on its own with lots of light, and it needs lots of light and this sensor is amazing.

also, i am very close to having a usable raw converter,

it was Marf's and Dave Coffins programs that started me on my odyssey, neither interpolated completely and neither combined the images, ok DCRAW does a very lame attempt.

but now Fer (working S5000/7000) and i have a good interpolation algorithm and we are both coming to the same conclusion, we are going to need white balance data and better yet, gray scale curves.

so look tomorrow or the next day for F700RAW4, it will have 48 bit PSD output raw interpolated nothing else files, the price will be sending back gray scale and/or white shots information in varying light along with what wb setting your camera thought it was in.

David

 

[Airscape]

but your formula agrees about 4 stops, 4 EV's whatever unit you
want to use in relative sensitivity between the S and R sensor.

That agrees with what Dave Coffin uses in his DCRAW program to
normalize the R to the S, that is he multiplies the raw R value by
16.

Thanks for the info!

David

The biggest irony in all this is that I was always mad at Fuji's
marketing deparmtent for hyping the Super CCD SR results so much,
and now with all this investigation you have done it's clear to me
that marketing was actually doing their job! How ironic, that it
all seems to move now back to the engineers (or the firmware
writters to be more specific).

• Raist

Raist amigo soy Jordi desde España se comenta en el foro sobrel aversion del firmware de la f700 como se puede saber q verison es?Si lo sabes dime la manera.Sabes si se vende bastante esta camara?Gracias.Un saludo.

 

[Raist3d]

but your formula agrees about 4 stops, 4 EV's whatever unit you
want to use in relative sensitivity between the S and R sensor.

That agrees with what Dave Coffin uses in his DCRAW program to
normalize the R to the S, that is he multiplies the raw R value by
16.

Thanks for the info!

David

The biggest irony in all this is that I was always mad at Fuji's
marketing deparmtent for hyping the Super CCD SR results so much,
and now with all this investigation you have done it's clear to me
that marketing was actually doing their job! How ironic, that it
all seems to move now back to the engineers (or the firmware
writters to be more specific).

• Raist

Raist amigo soy Jordi desde España se comenta en el foro sobrel
aversion del firmware de la f700 como se puede saber q verison
es?Si lo sabes dime la manera.Sabes si se vende bastante esta
camara?Gracias.Un saludo.

Hola Jordi.

Pues fíjate que no sé... Es que por lo visto Fuji tampoco hace firmware upgrades... hmmmm..

Si se vende bastante o no tampoco lo sé... yo supongo que con el nuevo precio definitivamente se debe vender más, pero sinceramente no utilices esto de criterio si la vas a comprar o no. Lo mejor que puedes hacer es mira las fotos, y ve a un sitio que la tenga y úsala, a ver como te parece.

( estoy asumiendo que estas en la decisión de comprar una, en la cual puedo estar completamente equivocado )

• Raist

 

[Airscape]

but your formula agrees about 4 stops, 4 EV's whatever unit you
want to use in relative sensitivity between the S and R sensor.

That agrees with what Dave Coffin uses in his DCRAW program to
normalize the R to the S, that is he multiplies the raw R value by
16.

Thanks for the info!

David

The biggest irony in all this is that I was always mad at Fuji's
marketing deparmtent for hyping the Super CCD SR results so much,
and now with all this investigation you have done it's clear to me
that marketing was actually doing their job! How ironic, that it
all seems to move now back to the engineers (or the firmware
writters to be more specific).

• Raist

Raist amigo soy Jordi desde España se comenta en el foro sobrel
aversion del firmware de la f700 como se puede saber q verison
es?Si lo sabes dime la manera.Sabes si se vende bastante esta
camara?Gracias.Un saludo.

Hola Jordi.

Pues fíjate que no sé... Es que por lo visto Fuji tampoco hace
firmware upgrades... hmmmm..

Si se vende bastante o no tampoco lo sé... yo supongo que con el
nuevo precio definitivamente se debe vender más, pero sinceramente
no utilices esto de criterio si la vas a comprar o no. Lo mejor
que puedes hacer es mira las fotos, y ve a un sitio que la tenga y
úsala, a ver como te parece.

( estoy asumiendo que estas en la decisión de comprar una, en la
cual puedo estar completamente equivocado )

• Raist

Ya la tengye en la ultima opinion dela f700 en el paartado camaras hay unlink: ese exe va bien? Para q es? Por lo he bajado,le dado al exe pero no hace nada.Comentame algo gracias.

--
Jordi Puig