Expanding home network. Questions

[Craig Gillette]

Moved my desktop to a new room. I have Frontier FIOS service to ONY in garage, then using cable tv cable from garage to living room (and a separate set top box in master bedroom so tv streaming over wifi not really an issue), cable splitter to set top box and MOCA to ethernet adapter and a provided "Gateway" (combined modem/router. I don't want to interfere with current service, it works quite well for my wife's WFH office needs and Frontier charges a fee if you move to your own router, etc. .

The new location is weaker than the old (which was right next to the gateway) and there is no convenient outlet for a midpoint extender, repeater, etc. I can raise a device to the second floor level over the current service point which would give even better {almost) line of site to her office door and reduce the amount of structure to my "office" door, too. We're on a slab and have high ceilings, the living room area is open upwards so a higher device would be even closer to unobstructed line of site to her office door and reduce, a lot, obstructing structure to my "office." Also with slab and no attic, there's no convenient or esthetically pleasing way to "simply" run ethernet to the front of the house. Nor is their an outlet that would work for an extender. Raising the current gateway is impractical, it would require a power lead, coax and several ethernet cables, as well as adding a swicth, etc., for temporary or permanent ethernet access at a useful point.

So thinking of adding a router (I have an Asus RT-AC3200) or mesh network downstream of the current gateway. this could be set higher with only a power lead and one ethernet cable. An option I haven't looked too closely at is using ethernet over powerline.

The router I have, mesh is current tech? Not sure which might be better?

 

[NickZ2016]

TPlink (I assume others) make powerline (A/C) network devices. You plug one into a power outlet near your router. Plug the ethernet into that . Plug a second one near the computer or other device you want to connect. Then connect to the second one with either a Ethernet cable or Wifi depending on which unit you bought.

Around here the whole house is often wired on one big circuit and it works fairly well. Not sure how it would work for you but it's a lot easier than many of the other options.

 

[Craig Gillette]

I've been looking at that approach. Not sure if the spots I need are on the same circuit, nor how to tell, really. I'd guess one way to tell would be to see how it performs on a try out. My daughter's boy friend does a lot of low voltage wiring for networks, etc., and would likely know. I may need to run this by him anyways.

 

[NickZ2016]

The one I'm using is just normal household voltage.

The simple way to tell if it's the same circuit is to turn off the breaker. If the outlet stops working you know. Plug a radio in

 

[Craig Gillette]

If talking on the same circuit breaker, that's fairly straight forward. I'm thinking the locations needed are on different breakers (downstairs vs upstairs, opposite ends of the house, etc.). Haven't explored that far yet. Yet the discussions on the powerline ethernet are don't seem consistent, then there are things like this:

Loading…

weakwifisolutions.com

 

[jboyer]

Moved my desktop to a new room. I have Frontier FIOS service to ONY in garage, then using cable tv cable from garage to living room (and a separate set top box in master bedroom so tv streaming over wifi not really an issue), cable splitter to set top box and MOCA to ethernet adapter and a provided "Gateway" (combined modem/router. I don't want to interfere with current service, it works quite well for my wife's WFH office needs and Frontier charges a fee if you move to your own router, etc. .

The new location is weaker than the old (which was right next to the gateway) and there is no convenient outlet for a midpoint extender, repeater, etc. I can raise a device to the second floor level over the current service point which would give even better {almost) line of site to her office door and reduce the amount of structure to my "office" door, too. We're on a slab and have high ceilings, the living room area is open upwards so a higher device would be even closer to unobstructed line of site to her office door and reduce, a lot, obstructing structure to my "office." Also with slab and no attic, there's no convenient or esthetically pleasing way to "simply" run ethernet to the front of the house. Nor is their an outlet that would work for an extender. Raising the current gateway is impractical, it would require a power lead, coax and several ethernet cables, as well as adding a swicth, etc., for temporary or permanent ethernet access at a useful point.

So thinking of adding a router (I have an Asus RT-AC3200) or mesh network downstream of the current gateway. this could be set higher with only a power lead and one ethernet cable. An option I haven't looked too closely at is using ethernet over powerline.

The router I have, mesh is current tech? Not sure which might be better?

Can you share the network speed you see when connected to the Asus router through Wi-Fi? Are you on the 2.4 or 5 MHz band?

Does your system supports Wi-Fi 6?

There are a few apps that could help you figure the signal strength and possible congestion.

You have powerful router. Using power lines is a hit and miss solution. One issue was the actual thruput. It used to be pretty low.

In a larger home, I used PoE to drive a Ubiquity access point with great success. Their AP seemed to be going through walls and had excellent thruput. Expensive and not simple to install.

 

[NickZ2016]

I've got different generations mixed. I think the latest version claims 800Mb/s speed but since virtually everything else in the house is slower that's not something I could test.

 

[Craig Gillette]

Moved my desktop to a new room. I have Frontier FIOS service to ONY in garage, then using cable tv cable from garage to living room (and a separate set top box in master bedroom so tv streaming over wifi not really an issue), cable splitter to set top box and MOCA to ethernet adapter and a provided "Gateway" (combined modem/router. I don't want to interfere with current service, it works quite well for my wife's WFH office needs and Frontier charges a fee if you move to your own router, etc. .

The new location is weaker than the old (which was right next to the gateway) and there is no convenient outlet for a midpoint extender, repeater, etc. I can raise a device to the second floor level over the current service point which would give even better {almost) line of site to her office door and reduce the amount of structure to my "office" door, too. We're on a slab and have high ceilings, the living room area is open upwards so a higher device would be even closer to unobstructed line of site to her office door and reduce, a lot, obstructing structure to my "office." Also with slab and no attic, there's no convenient or esthetically pleasing way to "simply" run ethernet to the front of the house. Nor is their an outlet that would work for an extender. Raising the current gateway is impractical, it would require a power lead, coax and several ethernet cables, as well as adding a swicth, etc., for temporary or permanent ethernet access at a useful point.

So thinking of adding a router (I have an Asus RT-AC3200) or mesh network downstream of the current gateway. this could be set higher with only a power lead and one ethernet cable. An option I haven't looked too closely at is using ethernet over powerline.

The router I have, mesh is current tech? Not sure which might be better?

Can you share the network speed you see when connected to the Asus router through Wi-Fi? Are you on the 2.4 or 5 MHz band?

No clue. It's an older router, 802.11ac. I haven't used it recently, I've been working in other part of the house, much closer to the gateway.. I've just recently (this week) moved the computer so have lost the 2.4 GHz network side, and shows low strength when connected to the 5 GHz side. My phone and tablet? One picks up the 2.4 GHz side of things in the new room, right next to the desktop, the other shows both but has stronger signal and connects to the 5 GHz network.

Does your system supports Wi-Fi 6?

My laptop does, the other stuff is ac.

There are a few apps that could help you figure the signal strength and possible congestion.

You have powerful router. Using power lines is a hit and miss solution. One issue was the actual thruput. It used to be pretty low.

The reviews still seem to suggest that in testing but that seems pretty dependent on actual conditions, wiring, etc., and congestion, interference nd obstructions for WiFi. When searching for WiFi, I get stronger indicators from a neighbor's (?) network at the front of the house and lose it at the back- assuming they are up the street some with little obstructng structure. I'll try the router first, thinking as an access point, and placed higher. that's free, just need some time to set up. What I don't want to do is blunder into change that impacts my wife's work connections.

In a larger home, I used PoE to drive a Ubiquity access point with great success. Their AP seemed to be going through walls and had excellent thruput. Expensive and not simple to install.

 

[jboyer]

Craig,

My first step would be using the router as a router (not an access point) connecting it to the Frontier router with an Ethernet cable -- in the garage, or, if possible, in the house, close to the garage. It may be enough to solve your problems.

This way, nothing will be disturbing your wife's set up.

If your laptop has good Wi-Fi connectivity the Asus router should work fine and go through walls...sort of.

 

[Craig Gillette]

Just checked and apparently as this desktop was made and files brought forward from previous computers, the earlier Asus network names are still stored. So those passwords should be available. That may come in handy.

If I just add the "old" Asus to the Gateway via ethernet cable, should it be ethernet from the gateway to the WAN terminal or to just a free ethernet/LAN terminal? If it's already set for it's own (the old ones) network, then it's just finding the SSID and logging in to the "new" network with the existing (old) password?

 

[jboyer]

Just checked and apparently as this desktop was made and files brought forward from previous computers, the earlier Asus network names are still stored. So those passwords should be available. That may come in handy.

If I just add the "old" Asus to the Gateway via ethernet cable, should it be ethernet from the gateway to the WAN terminal or to just a free ethernet/LAN terminal? If it's already set for it's own (the old ones) network, then it's just finding the SSID and logging in to the "new" network with the existing (old) password?

Ethernet from the main router to the Wan on Asus blue connection?

And you should be in business.

 

[vett93]

I used to be in home networking equipment development business. Let me first state how I set up my home network and then suggest a few things for you to consider. My wife and I both WFH. Her office is on the first floor and mine is on the 2nd floor.

We have Comcast/Xfinity Internet services, as opposed to FIOS or VDSL. So I have an Arris S33 cable modem with a 2.5Gbps Ethernet output. Then I have an Ubiquiti Dream Machine Pro as the main router. The distribution of data is through MoCA via the coaxial cable in the house. Then we have MoCA-to-Ethernet adapters for our desktop computers. We also have two Ubiquiti WiFi6 APs for our mobile devices. We get stable 950Mbps down and 40 Mbps up for our devices.

Now comes my suggestions.

1. You want only 1 router in the house. In other words, you don't want to add another router behind your current router. You can get Ethernet switches to add more devices though.

2. There are a few ways of distributing data throughout the house. Here are my opinions of them.

2.1: Wired Ethernet: This is a good option, but labor intensive. I don't want to put active electronics in the attic either. So one would need a data rack in the house to deal with the wiring and equipment.

2.2: MoCA: Most houses in North America have coaxial cable throughput the house already. With the latest MoCA standard, you can achieve 2.5Gbps throughput. Note that with the FIOS deployment, it has WAN MoCA and LAN MoCA. WAN MoCA is used between the router and the ONU in your garage. LAN MoCA is used to distribute data in the house.

2.3 WiFi or Meshed WiFi: Personally, I don't like strong RF in the house. So I adjusted down the signal strength of my WiFi6 APs. For some houses, it may not be the most reliable method due to interferences.

2.4 Powerline data: Personally, I don't like it either. IMO, powerline should be clean. I put filters on the AC outlets to reduce power noises. I am a self-claimed audiophile (aka audiofool). The last thing I want is to inject more noises to the powerline.

If I were you, I would consider extending LAN MoCA from your router. The FIOS router already has LAN MoCA interface. So it is easy to add a LAN MoCA device to the home network. There are a few options here:

1. You can get a MoCA-to-Ethernet adapter and connect your computer through Ethernet.

2. You can get a MoCA-to-Ethernet adapter and connect a WiFi AP to the Ethernet jack.

3. Combination of 1 and 2.

4. You can get a WiFi AP with MoCA interface.

 

[Craig Gillette]

I'd be interested in reasoning why a second router shouldn't/couldn't be used. There are several ways that it seems possible. Since I an working off a combined modem/router, adding a router or a mesh network, etc., seem to have similar set up/connection issues. A second network would be fine - if we don't end up paying Frontier more.

The system, as is, is functional. "We" got the desktop, printer, scanner and "work" area stuff out of the living room/entertaining area. I'm just looking to potential expansion possibilities. Like streaming 4k hdtv in the "office" (cave), added "smart" devices to connect/control. Perhaps also more mutual interference like issues as more in the neighborhood add streaming, etc. So "cheap" is good. I don't really need this expansion at this point, just exploring possibilities. If "interference"impacts the wife's work at home set up, then we'd approach it more seriously.

 

[vett93]

I'd be interested in reasoning why a second router shouldn't/couldn't be used.

There are several reasons. But the most important one is that it would create a double NAT configuration and certain applications won't be able to go through. NAT stands for network address translation. Your router has a WAN side that uses a public IP address and a LAN side which has a private IP address (e.g., 192.168.1.1). NAT translates the private addresses for the devices in the LAN side to the public network so that data are routable to them. If you have a double NAT configuration (i.e., by adding another router), some applications won't work reliably.

There are several ways that it seems possible. Since I an working off a combined modem/router, adding a router or a mesh network, etc., seem to have similar set up/connection issues. A second network would be fine - if we don't end up paying Frontier more.

Well, you don't really have a combined modem/router. Your router interfaces with the ONT/ONU in your garage. A modem usually interfaces a headend equipment over a longer distance.

The system, as is, is functional. "We" got the desktop, printer, scanner and "work" area stuff out of the living room/entertaining area.

How are your desktops connected to the network currently?

I'm just looking to potential expansion possibilities. Like streaming 4k hdtv in the "office" (cave), added "smart" devices to connect/control. Perhaps also more mutual interference like issues as more in the neighborhood add streaming, etc. So "cheap" is good. I don't really need this expansion at this point, just exploring possibilities. If "interference"impacts the wife's work at home set up, then we'd approach it more seriously.

 

[Billiam29]

Do you happen to have an Android phone or tablet available? If so, I would suggest using the app ‘WiFi Analyzer’ to walk around your house and get some objective readings on what your situation is. Possibly also whether your envisioned “structure interference” actually is or isn’t an issue.

BTW, don’t forget that WiFi is a two-way street. You can have the strongest signal imaginable from your router, but if your computer has a weak signal “talking back” to your router from its location then you could still have issues for uploading files or other upload-heavy workiloads.

 

[Craig Gillette]

Do you happen to have an Android phone or tablet available? If so, I would suggest using the app ‘WiFi Analyzer’ to walk around your house and get some objective readings on what your situation is. Possibly also whether your envisioned “structure interference” actually is or isn’t an issue.

I could try this. I have both tablet and phone.

BTW, don’t forget that WiFi is a two-way street. You can have the strongest signal imaginable from your router, but if your computer has a weak signal “talking back” to your router from its location then you could still have issues for uploading files or other upload-heavy workiloads.

I haven't tried any serious uploads although I seldom upload full sized files. sometimes web sized files to Facebook. I use a card reader for downloads from the camera direct to the pc.

 

[Craig Gillette]

Do you happen to have an Android phone or tablet available? If so, I would suggest using the app ‘WiFi Analyzer’ to walk around your house and get some objective readings on what your situation is. Possibly also whether your envisioned “structure interference” actually is or isn’t an issue.

It seems to vary some (without analyzer), the desktop was not showing the 2.4 GHz available, today it does intermittently, other "available" networks seem to come and go, vary in "bars," too. My phone, has been connected to the 2.4 GHz network pretty much all along, but I do little on-line with it. Walking in with the tablet, the 5GHz shows strongest indicators all the way in, the 2.4 GHz drops bars as I come around the corner into this room.

BTW, don’t forget that WiFi is a two-way street. You can have the strongest signal imaginable from your router, but if your computer has a weak signal “talking back” to your router from its location then you could still have issues for uploading files or other upload-heavy workiloads.

 

[Craig Gillette]

I'd be interested in reasoning why a second router shouldn't/couldn't be used.

There are several reasons. But the most important one is that it would create a double NAT configuration and certain applications won't be able to go through. NAT stands for network address translation. Your router has a WAN side that uses a public IP address and a LAN side which has a private IP address (e.g., 192.168.1.1). NAT translates the private addresses for the devices in the LAN side to the public network so that data are routable to them. If you have a double NAT configuration (i.e., by adding another router), some applications won't work reliably.

That seems to be the same issues could arise with adding a mesh network.

There are several ways that it seems possible. Since I an working off a combined modem/router, adding a router or a mesh network, etc., seem to have similar set up/connection issues. A second network would be fine - if we don't end up paying Frontier more.

Well, you don't really have a combined modem/router. Your router interfaces with the ONT/ONU in your garage. A modem usually interfaces a headend equipment over a longer distance.

From the ONT, coax and traditional phone line goes to the wall behind the existing cable tv and phone boxes on the exterior wall, connecting to the two coax runs and the telephone lines. One coax goes to the bedroom and a set top box. The other goes to the living room where a splitter sends coax to the other set top box, the Arris MEB 1100 MOCA to Ethernet device and coax direct to the Arris NVG468MQ gateway. The MEB 1100 uses it's usb for power and is connected by ethernet cable to the gateway.

The system, as is, is functional. "We" got the desktop, printer, scanner and "work" area stuff out of the living room/entertaining area.

How are your desktops connected to the network currently?

The wife's is via the 5GHz network. As is mine, now. Before it was direct connected via ethernet cable. (it was about 3 feet away).

I'm just looking to potential expansion possibilities. Like streaming 4k hdtv in the "office" (cave), added "smart" devices to connect/control. Perhaps also more mutual interference like issues as more in the neighborhood add streaming, etc. So "cheap" is good. I don't really need this expansion at this point, just exploring possibilities. If "interference"impacts the wife's work at home set up, then we'd approach it more seriously.

 

[vett93]

I'd be interested in reasoning why a second router shouldn't/couldn't be used.

There are several reasons. But the most important one is that it would create a double NAT configuration and certain applications won't be able to go through. NAT stands for network address translation. Your router has a WAN side that uses a public IP address and a LAN side which has a private IP address (e.g., 192.168.1.1). NAT translates the private addresses for the devices in the LAN side to the public network so that data are routable to them. If you have a double NAT configuration (i.e., by adding another router), some applications won't work reliably.

That seems to be the same issues could arise with adding a mesh network.

Mesh networks are different. They do not perform NAT. You won't have such issues with them. The issues you may have with Mesh networks are interferences. If your neighbors blast their WiFi power, it may impact the performance.

There are several ways that it seems possible. Since I an working off a combined modem/router, adding a router or a mesh network, etc., seem to have similar set up/connection issues. A second network would be fine - if we don't end up paying Frontier more.

Well, you don't really have a combined modem/router. Your router interfaces with the ONT/ONU in your garage. A modem usually interfaces a headend equipment over a longer distance.

From the ONT, coax and traditional phone line goes to the wall behind the existing cable tv and phone boxes on the exterior wall, connecting to the two coax runs and the telephone lines. One coax goes to the bedroom and a set top box. The other goes to the living room where a splitter sends coax to the other set top box, the Arris MEB 1100 MOCA to Ethernet device and coax direct to the Arris NVG468MQ gateway. The MEB 1100 uses it's usb for power and is connected by ethernet cable to the gateway.

Do you have coax cable throughout the house? If you do, MoCA is the best way for extending your network coverage.



This is what I use in my house: Amazon.com: Motorola MOCA Adapter for Ethernet Over Coax, 1,000 Mbps Bonded 2.0 MoCA (Model MM1000) : Electronics

I think one can connect up to 15 MoCA adapters to the same coax wiring. I think your router has a built-in MoCA adapter already.

The system, as is, is functional. "We" got the desktop, printer, scanner and "work" area stuff out of the living room/entertaining area.

How are your desktops connected to the network currently?

The wife's is via the 5GHz network. As is mine, now. Before it was direct connected via ethernet cable. (it was about 3 feet away).

I'm just looking to potential expansion possibilities. Like streaming 4k hdtv in the "office" (cave), added "smart" devices to connect/control. Perhaps also more mutual interference like issues as more in the neighborhood add streaming, etc. So "cheap" is good. I don't really need this expansion at this point, just exploring possibilities. If "interference"impacts the wife's work at home set up, then we'd approach it more seriously.

--
"Keep calm and take photos"
Photography enthusiast, from 12mm to 600mm

 

[vett93]

Do you happen to have an Android phone or tablet available? If so, I would suggest using the app ‘WiFi Analyzer’ to walk around your house and get some objective readings on what your situation is. Possibly also whether your envisioned “structure interference” actually is or isn’t an issue.

It seems to vary some (without analyzer), the desktop was not showing the 2.4 GHz available, today it does intermittently, other "available" networks seem to come and go, vary in "bars," too. My phone, has been connected to the 2.4 GHz network pretty much all along, but I do little on-line with it. Walking in with the tablet, the 5GHz shows strongest indicators all the way in, the 2.4 GHz drops bars as I come around the corner into this room.

5GHz band has faster drops in signal strength than 2.4GHz. You may want to check the power levels of the WiFi router. Most WiFi routers allow one to adjust the power levels for the 2.4GHz and 5GHz WiFi independently.

There may be interferences too. Three common kinds of interferences are: (1) interference from other WiFi APs, (2) interferences from your other electronics, and (3) interference from nearby electric/electronic devices outside your house. 2.5GHz and 5GHz bands are NOT licensed. So others can generate signals in these bands too.

There are regulations on how much powerful WiFi APs can generate. But some people may be ignorant of them and crank up the power.