EOS R horizon level

[Ed Rizk]

I remember from the manual that it goes off in some shooting modes, I believe face detect.

I set it to off all the time, and have it on the right button of the touch bar.

Thanks for your reply. By assigning the level to the touch bar, can you have the camera display the electronic level when face-detect auto-focus is enabled? Or is that not possible?

No.

Can you get the camera to display the electronic level when recording a video?

No.

Sorry. I just tried it. When I hit the button, it says, "not available".

Thanks very much for checking.

I’m surprised that the electronic level is disabled under these circumstances. Can’t be a feature...

There are a lot of things the R doesn't do at the same time it does other things. Dual pixel RAW doesn't work with Eye focus or a number of other features. That was more disappointing to me than the level.

The problem is throughput. The sensor read out speed and/or the processing speed is too slow for a lot of advanced features to work at the same time.

Nothing's perfect.

Yes, it’s a real shame about these seemingly arbitrary restrictions/limitations.

It seems that with EOS M cameras you can keep the electronic level if face-detect AF is enabled. Not sure why this is not allowed with the EOS R. A very strange limitation, IMO.

Full disclosure, I don't have the M, but I'm always one to speculate.

With fewer MP, lower MP VF and LCD, and less capable focus, etc, the M has less processing to do, therefore can use more features simultaneously.

Being ultra conservative, when it comes to reliability, Canon will not permit two things to work at once if they might crash the system one in a thousand times. Or certain combinations could crash the system in extreme conditions, like low light or slower lenses that make the AF and therefore make the sensor/processor work harder, could crash the system.

They have announced an upcoming firmware fix for some of these issues, so better software might be able to solve more issues over time.

Good speculation. I believe that data processing limitations has a major impact on the R. From FPS, to live view update (lack of it) during bursts, no tracking at 120 fps in 720 mode. The level not always being available (not a big deal for most), no histogram during video capture (I think this has a bigger impact on video shooters), etc etc.
I feel they released the R with the timing to have it there before December, while the software wasn't yet fully optimized or completed. So continuous silent shooting, continuous eye AF in servo mode etc etc all were intended but didn't make it upon release.
A FW update should not only bring these features, but may improve efficiency with regards to various things. Hopefully this histogram and level thing can be added.

All these seemingly arbitrary restrictions/limitations are such a turn-off for me. I can’t reward this effort with my hard-earned cash, honestly. When and if they are remedied, I may reconsider.

Agreed. One should only ever buy products with absolutely no limitations.

“Absolutely no limitations?” Did I say anything like that? I’m afraid you are erecting a strawman, and your sarcasm is unwarranted. My issue is with the seeming arbitrariness of some of these restrictions, which smack of sloppiness to me. For example, having the electronic level disappear when face-detect auto-focus is enabled is an arbitrary limitation that dings ergonomics and shouldn’t be there on a $2300 body. Canon’s own lowly G7X, which I own, does not have that issue with the electronic level.

A little hyperbolic, I admit.

 

[lawny13]

I remember from the manual that it goes off in some shooting modes, I believe face detect.

I set it to off all the time, and have it on the right button of the touch bar.

Thanks for your reply. By assigning the level to the touch bar, can you have the camera display the electronic level when face-detect auto-focus is enabled? Or is that not possible?

No.

Can you get the camera to display the electronic level when recording a video?

No.

Sorry. I just tried it. When I hit the button, it says, "not available".

Thanks very much for checking.

I’m surprised that the electronic level is disabled under these circumstances. Can’t be a feature...

There are a lot of things the R doesn't do at the same time it does other things. Dual pixel RAW doesn't work with Eye focus or a number of other features. That was more disappointing to me than the level.

The problem is throughput. The sensor read out speed and/or the processing speed is too slow for a lot of advanced features to work at the same time.

Nothing's perfect.

Yes, it’s a real shame about these seemingly arbitrary restrictions/limitations.

It seems that with EOS M cameras you can keep the electronic level if face-detect AF is enabled. Not sure why this is not allowed with the EOS R. A very strange limitation, IMO.

Full disclosure, I don't have the M, but I'm always one to speculate.

With fewer MP, lower MP VF and LCD, and less capable focus, etc, the M has less processing to do, therefore can use more features simultaneously.

Being ultra conservative, when it comes to reliability, Canon will not permit two things to work at once if they might crash the system one in a thousand times. Or certain combinations could crash the system in extreme conditions, like low light or slower lenses that make the AF and therefore make the sensor/processor work harder, could crash the system.

They have announced an upcoming firmware fix for some of these issues, so better software might be able to solve more issues over time.

Good speculation. I believe that data processing limitations has a major impact on the R. From FPS, to live view update (lack of it) during bursts, no tracking at 120 fps in 720 mode. The level not always being available (not a big deal for most), no histogram during video capture (I think this has a bigger impact on video shooters), etc etc.
I feel they released the R with the timing to have it there before December, while the software wasn't yet fully optimized or completed. So continuous silent shooting, continuous eye AF in servo mode etc etc all were intended but didn't make it upon release.
A FW update should not only bring these features, but may improve efficiency with regards to various things. Hopefully this histogram and level thing can be added.

All these seemingly arbitrary restrictions/limitations are such a turn-off for me. I can’t reward this effort with my hard-earned cash, honestly. When and if they are remedied, I may reconsider.

Agreed. One should only ever buy products with absolutely no limitations.

“Absolutely no limitations?” Did I say anything like that? I’m afraid you are erecting a strawman, and your sarcasm is unwarranted. My issue is with the seeming arbitrariness of some of these restrictions, which smack of sloppiness to me. For example, having the electronic level disappear when face-detect auto-focus is enabled is an arbitrary limitation that dings ergonomics and shouldn’t be there on a $2300 body. Canon’s own lowly G7X, which I own, does not have that issue with the electronic level.

Again... a comment from someone who is not an engineer, programming or designer in anyway. Arbitrary is a word you are using to make it seem that canon randomly hobbles the camera for no good reason.

There is only one reason. The R’s Achilles heel is processing-power/readout-speed. That is the “desease” and the rest that people complain about are the symptoms. From the FPS, to levels and historgrams not being present at certain times. The lowly G7X has considerably less data to push and manage, so it isn’t about that. We all know by that a phone can do more than a larger sensor camera in this respect.

Photography is about the vision of the photographer, light, optics and the. The camera body. Canon has no choice but to improve on these things. As such for those who understand this and want canon optics, ergonomics and the system as a whole are willing to overlook a little thing such as the level.

Your alternative is to complain about it and look down on the R and but one of the alternatives. You can go for Sony and pay more for the lenses and other flaws with the system or Nikon with its flaws. They all have flaws by the way... from the forced stopped down focus to the iffy AF system of the Z bodies. But... I don’t see why we can’t expect the next RF camera to have better performance in terms of data management. If canon will release a pro level body then they will address this.

 

[dpr4bb]

I remember from the manual that it goes off in some shooting modes, I believe face detect.

I set it to off all the time, and have it on the right button of the touch bar.

Thanks for your reply. By assigning the level to the touch bar, can you have the camera display the electronic level when face-detect auto-focus is enabled? Or is that not possible?

No.

Can you get the camera to display the electronic level when recording a video?

No.

Sorry. I just tried it. When I hit the button, it says, "not available".

Thanks very much for checking.

I’m surprised that the electronic level is disabled under these circumstances. Can’t be a feature...

There are a lot of things the R doesn't do at the same time it does other things. Dual pixel RAW doesn't work with Eye focus or a number of other features. That was more disappointing to me than the level.

The problem is throughput. The sensor read out speed and/or the processing speed is too slow for a lot of advanced features to work at the same time.

Nothing's perfect.

Yes, it’s a real shame about these seemingly arbitrary restrictions/limitations.

It seems that with EOS M cameras you can keep the electronic level if face-detect AF is enabled. Not sure why this is not allowed with the EOS R. A very strange limitation, IMO.

Full disclosure, I don't have the M, but I'm always one to speculate.

With fewer MP, lower MP VF and LCD, and less capable focus, etc, the M has less processing to do, therefore can use more features simultaneously.

Being ultra conservative, when it comes to reliability, Canon will not permit two things to work at once if they might crash the system one in a thousand times. Or certain combinations could crash the system in extreme conditions, like low light or slower lenses that make the AF and therefore make the sensor/processor work harder, could crash the system.

They have announced an upcoming firmware fix for some of these issues, so better software might be able to solve more issues over time.

Good speculation. I believe that data processing limitations has a major impact on the R. From FPS, to live view update (lack of it) during bursts, no tracking at 120 fps in 720 mode. The level not always being available (not a big deal for most), no histogram during video capture (I think this has a bigger impact on video shooters), etc etc.
I feel they released the R with the timing to have it there before December, while the software wasn't yet fully optimized or completed. So continuous silent shooting, continuous eye AF in servo mode etc etc all were intended but didn't make it upon release.
A FW update should not only bring these features, but may improve efficiency with regards to various things. Hopefully this histogram and level thing can be added.

All these seemingly arbitrary restrictions/limitations are such a turn-off for me. I can’t reward this effort with my hard-earned cash, honestly. When and if they are remedied, I may reconsider.

Agreed. One should only ever buy products with absolutely no limitations.

“Absolutely no limitations?” Did I say anything like that? I’m afraid you are erecting a strawman, and your sarcasm is unwarranted. My issue is with the seeming arbitrariness of some of these restrictions, which smack of sloppiness to me. For example, having the electronic level disappear when face-detect auto-focus is enabled is an arbitrary limitation that dings ergonomics and shouldn’t be there on a $2300 body. Canon’s own lowly G7X, which I own, does not have that issue with the electronic level.

Again... a comment from someone who is not an engineer, programming or designer in anyway. Arbitrary is a word you are using to make it seem that canon randomly hobbles the camera for no good reason.

The underlying causes or shortcomings are irrelevant. From a user experience point of view, having the electronic level disappear just because face detection is enabled is arbitrary and a ding against good ergonomics. By the way, models from other manufacturers don’t seem to have this problem, so there is no excuse for the leading manufacturer not getting these details right. Might it be that they just don’t care?

There is only one reason. The R’s Achilles heel is processing-power/readout-speed. That is the “desease” and the rest that people complain about are the symptoms. From the FPS, to levels and historgrams not being present at certain times. The lowly G7X has considerably less data to push and manage, so it isn’t about that. We all know by that a phone can do more than a larger sensor camera in this respect.

Photography is about the vision of the photographer, light, optics and the. The camera body. Canon has no choice but to improve on these things. As such for those who understand this and want canon optics, ergonomics and the system as a whole are willing to overlook a little thing such as the level.

Some will, some won’t. Bear in mind, this is a $2300 body.

Your alternative is to complain about it and look down on the R and but one of the alternatives. You can go for Sony and pay more for the lenses and other flaws with the system or Nikon with its flaws. They all have flaws by the way... from the forced stopped down focus to the iffy AF system of the Z bodies. But... I don’t see why we can’t expect the next RF camera to have better performance in terms of data management. If canon will release a pro level body then they will address this.

 

[lawny13]

I remember from the manual that it goes off in some shooting modes, I believe face detect.

I set it to off all the time, and have it on the right button of the touch bar.

Thanks for your reply. By assigning the level to the touch bar, can you have the camera display the electronic level when face-detect auto-focus is enabled? Or is that not possible?

No.

Can you get the camera to display the electronic level when recording a video?

No.

Sorry. I just tried it. When I hit the button, it says, "not available".

Thanks very much for checking.

I’m surprised that the electronic level is disabled under these circumstances. Can’t be a feature...

There are a lot of things the R doesn't do at the same time it does other things. Dual pixel RAW doesn't work with Eye focus or a number of other features. That was more disappointing to me than the level.

The problem is throughput. The sensor read out speed and/or the processing speed is too slow for a lot of advanced features to work at the same time.

Nothing's perfect.

Yes, it’s a real shame about these seemingly arbitrary restrictions/limitations.

It seems that with EOS M cameras you can keep the electronic level if face-detect AF is enabled. Not sure why this is not allowed with the EOS R. A very strange limitation, IMO.

Full disclosure, I don't have the M, but I'm always one to speculate.

With fewer MP, lower MP VF and LCD, and less capable focus, etc, the M has less processing to do, therefore can use more features simultaneously.

Being ultra conservative, when it comes to reliability, Canon will not permit two things to work at once if they might crash the system one in a thousand times. Or certain combinations could crash the system in extreme conditions, like low light or slower lenses that make the AF and therefore make the sensor/processor work harder, could crash the system.

They have announced an upcoming firmware fix for some of these issues, so better software might be able to solve more issues over time.

Good speculation. I believe that data processing limitations has a major impact on the R. From FPS, to live view update (lack of it) during bursts, no tracking at 120 fps in 720 mode. The level not always being available (not a big deal for most), no histogram during video capture (I think this has a bigger impact on video shooters), etc etc.
I feel they released the R with the timing to have it there before December, while the software wasn't yet fully optimized or completed. So continuous silent shooting, continuous eye AF in servo mode etc etc all were intended but didn't make it upon release.
A FW update should not only bring these features, but may improve efficiency with regards to various things. Hopefully this histogram and level thing can be added.

All these seemingly arbitrary restrictions/limitations are such a turn-off for me. I can’t reward this effort with my hard-earned cash, honestly. When and if they are remedied, I may reconsider.

Agreed. One should only ever buy products with absolutely no limitations.

“Absolutely no limitations?” Did I say anything like that? I’m afraid you are erecting a strawman, and your sarcasm is unwarranted. My issue is with the seeming arbitrariness of some of these restrictions, which smack of sloppiness to me. For example, having the electronic level disappear when face-detect auto-focus is enabled is an arbitrary limitation that dings ergonomics and shouldn’t be there on a $2300 body. Canon’s own lowly G7X, which I own, does not have that issue with the electronic level.

Again... a comment from someone who is not an engineer, programming or designer in anyway. Arbitrary is a word you are using to make it seem that canon randomly hobbles the camera for no good reason.

The underlying causes or shortcomings are irrelevant. From a user experience point of view, having the electronic level disappear just because face detection is enabled is arbitrary and a ding against good ergonomics. By the way, models from other manufacturers don’t seem to have this problem, so there is no excuse for the leading manufacturer not getting these details right. Might it be that they just don’t care?

My comment about looking at it from an engineer's perspective still applies. It isn't that they don't care. There is a technical limitation that bottlenecks/explains all of the R's issues/shortcomings. You say that other manufacturer's don't seem to have that issue and thus canon shouldn't. Well all other manufacturers are on the same tech... sony sensors with OSPDAF. Canon is the odd man out with DPAF. At most sony sensors have 700 or so PDAF points to process and the rest of the pixels for image capture. Canon has all their DPAF subpixels (60 MP worth) to process and switch back and to from etc etc. Its a whole different animal. I am generalizing a bit since I don't know or really care about the details on how they need to deal with it all. But DPAF is a double edged sword... with it being their biggest asset and their current limiter in terms of performance.

Level/histogram disappearing, FPS, no live view update during continuous shooting, cropped 4k, no AF during 720 120fps, etc.

There is only one reason. The R’s Achilles heel is processing-power/readout-speed. That is the “desease” and the rest that people complain about are the symptoms. From the FPS, to levels and historgrams not being present at certain times. The lowly G7X has considerably less data to push and manage, so it isn’t about that. We all know by that a phone can do more than a larger sensor camera in this respect.

Photography is about the vision of the photographer, light, optics and the. The camera body. Canon has no choice but to improve on these things. As such for those who understand this and want canon optics, ergonomics and the system as a whole are willing to overlook a little thing such as the level.

Some will, some won’t. Bear in mind, this is a $2300 body.

Yes... see last part of my comment above. DPAF makes it a different system completely compared to the competition, and that brings its own costs and complexity into the mix. It is something that canon HAS to address. I got rid of my A7III (though that is a great camera) because I am betting on the RF mount. Is the R short of the A7III in certain ways?? Heck ya. But it is far ahead of the A7II I owned before the A7III. End of the day I evaluated how I use the A7III, and found that the R would still meet my expectations for the most part. For me the biggest negative is the lack of live view update during shooting, the joystick, and the EVF sensor not deactivating when the LCD is flipped out.

Looking at it from an engineering view point again, I understand how the R ended up as it did with the 5DIV sensor used as a design baseline. As such the performance limitations from that sensor came along including the lack of IBIS. Couple that with canon's insistence that this is not a pro body...

But ask yourself... do you switch systems constantly, or do you buy into one? The XT2 for example was an ok camera, and I pointed out that it was quite a ways behind the sony A7III in terms of tracking and eye AF. Then out comes the XT3. So... I will accept the R and use it for the next 2-3 years and expect that canon will come out with a better iteration when they design a sensor specifically made for ML. I am also betting they will following the pricing and release strategies they have applied for their EF lenses for decades, which means a large spread of lens designs for various price points rather than the high cost of sony glass.

Of course... if the R is not for you, and you can't wait till canon announces a more pro body, then you have a choice of other manufacturers to go with last I checked.

Cheers

Your alternative is to complain about it and look down on the R and but one of the alternatives. You can go for Sony and pay more for the lenses and other flaws with the system or Nikon with its flaws. They all have flaws by the way... from the forced stopped down focus to the iffy AF system of the Z bodies. But... I don’t see why we can’t expect the next RF camera to have better performance in terms of data management. If canon will release a pro level body then they will address this.