DxOmark -- why "only" 71 points?

Of course we can compare at the same DoF rather than at the same f-stop Jim. But be aware that MFT then has an advantage rather than a disadvantage when it comes to image noise. You can't eat the cake and have it too.
I am afraid you are wrong, the extra detail of the D800 allows for the use of NR which results in a lower noise file that has at least as much detail as an E-M5 with a clear 2 stop difference. Or alternatively when the E-M5 is upsized to the same dimensions of the D800 you can have two stops more detail. I am interested in final output results and this reflects the reality of the end result. Not that I have any great need for high ISO now.

And your lens claim is only relevant in circumstances where in order to achieve an appropriate shutter speed you have to up the ISO on the FF camera rather than simply changing shutter speed by adjusting aperture while using the same ISO. There is no magic in mFT lenses though a few are excellent ,many are relatively poor, the consequences of this are of course reduced by software correction, using a small sensor and probably the most helpful factor is using a 4x3 ratio.

In fact every single lens made even the truly poor options can be drastically improved by simply choosing a 4x3 ratio. Have a wee look at this it is amazing how significant the lens performance is improved by using a 4x3 ratio as you simply do not use as much of the extremes edges of the image circle. With my D800 I can get a maximum 4x3 ratio of just over 32mp and effectively remove any corner issues when using F1.4 lenses { 0.7 equiv in mFT}

Jim
 
Of course we can compare at the same DoF rather than at the same f-stop Jim. But be aware that MFT then has an advantage rather than a disadvantage when it comes to image noise. You can't eat the cake and have it too.
I am afraid you are wrong, the extra detail of the D800 allows for the use of NR which results in a lower noise file that has at least as much detail as an E-M5 with a clear 2 stop difference. Or alternatively when the E-M5 is upsized to the same dimensions of the D800 you can have two stops more detail. I am interested in final output results and this reflects the reality of the end result. Not that I have any great need for high ISO now.
As I said, the extra detail of the D800 has already been taken into account in the comparison I made, showing that the E-M5 at 1600 is superior to the D800 at 6400.
And your lens claim is only relevant in circumstances where in order to achieve an appropriate shutter speed you have to up the ISO on the FF camera rather than simply changing shutter speed by adjusting aperture while using the same ISO.
Yes, as long as you are at base ISO, Nikon FF has an advantage and Canon FF a disadvantage relative to the E-M5. In either case, the difference won't be noticeable unless you do very serious shadow pushing, more serious than this:




There is no magic in mFT lenses though a few are excellent ,many are relatively poor,
Which are the many poor ones? And what would be the FF equivalents of these lenses be? Do they exist and what's their price?
the consequences of this are of course reduced by software correction
If that's so, they are not poor. It's the end result that counts, right?
using a small sensor and probably the most helpful factor is using a 4x3 ratio.
The aspect ratio is of little consequence here. The MFT lenses are designed for an image circle with a diameter of 21.6 mm. Those for FF are designed for a diamter twice as long. That's all. Which aspect ratio you use doesn't matter much as long as the diagonal remains what it should be, as it does for MFT and FF alike.
In fact every single lens made even the truly poor options can be drastically improved by simply choosing a 4x3 ratio. Have a wee look at this it is amazing how significant the lens performance is improved by using a 4x3 ratio as you simply do not use as much of the extremes edges of the image circle. With my D800 I can get a maximum 4x3 ratio of just over 32mp and effectively remove any corner issues when using F1.4 lenses { 0.7 equiv in mFT}
Yes, of course you can crop. This is likely to improve things only for lenses that are really poor in the extreme corners and only there (which ones are you thinking of?). In all other cases, it will result in a loss of resolution, loss of FoV for WAs, and increased noise.
 
I hope everyone realises that sensor manufacturing is very capital-intensive, really very with fabs costing usd 1 billion and more

as a result, a relatively small company like Nikon, just cannot enter that field - it's a much more logical decision to leave it to someone else to make the sensors (and earn a low economic return doing that), and earn a higher economic return by adding value on top of the sensor, typically (1) via image processing, and (2) by wrapping the sensor in a very competent camera body.
  • until recently anyone that took a Nikon DSLR apart, saw "Sony" printed on the sensor
  • more recently, some sensors have shown up with "Nikon" printed on them. Which simply means that Nikon as a customer, asked Sony to please print "Nikon" on the Sony chips
The m43 sensors tend to earn lower markss with DxO because, among other things:
  • their IQ at higher ISOs while good, is still behind best practice, and so they get penalised
  • the black box used by DxO seems to award a fairly high weight to the number of pixels, but m43 sensors still have fairly low pixel counts
At the end of the day, who cares? DxO is just a black box tool to grade sensors, and history have shown the limits of that black box (the first time they graded mid-frame sensors those came out very low, so every serious photographer made fun of DxO, so they modified the black box...).

What matters is not the DxO score: it's whether the photographer likes the IQ from a given camera and its lens or lenses; and whether the photographer likes the overall package including size, weight, user-friendliness. And you also have to factor in how much it costs.
 
Oops, my fault. Well, the difference is not 2stops exactly because there's the "shoulder" in the OMD graph, which is also present in the 5N graph. The D800 and the D600 show a very linear decay, +- measurement margins of error.

Perceptually, yes, the D600 is about 1.3-1.5 stop better than the D7000:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/rhlpedrosa/8020832810/sizes/o/in/photostream/

--
Renato.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rhlpedrosa/
OnExposure member
http://www.onexposure.net/

Good shooting and good luck
(after Ed Murrow)
 
Oops, my fault. Well, the difference is not 2stops exactly because there's the "shoulder" in the OMD graph, which is also present in the 5N graph. The D800 and the D600 show a very linear decay, +- measurement margins of error.
Sorry, but I am not sure I follow you here. Exactly which 2-stop difference between which cameras are you talking about here? I think I understand what you mean by "shoulder" in the E-M5 and 5N graphs, but I am still not sure exactly what you have in mind.
Perceptually, yes, the D600 is about 1.3-1.5 stop better than the D7000:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/rhlpedrosa/8020832810/sizes/o/in/photostream/
I am not sure with which jpeg settings these were shot. In order to see what the sensor, as opposed to in-camera jpeg processing, is really good for we need to look at identically processed RAWs from the cameras in question, like those offered by DPR.
 
... "Sony to become Olympus' biggest shareholder with $650m investment. - dpreview news.

In few years it will adopt Sony philosophy - do the best to make money and may also look like m4/3 Sony brothers and sisters. Now Sony may be winning in the FF. APS-c and m4/3 - very smart to dominate the digital imaging market.
Leo
 
People read too much into this fact. Sony's investment arm is in business of making profits from investments, and Olympus is cheap now because of all the accounting scandals. If Sony wanted Olympus' technology, they would have acquired it or came up with some technology exchange, etc. -- they gain nothing from investment, other than money.
... "Sony to become Olympus' biggest shareholder with $650m investment. - dpreview news.

In few years it will adopt Sony philosophy - do the best to make money and may also look like m4/3 Sony brothers and sisters. Now Sony may be winning in the FF. APS-c and m4/3 - very smart to dominate the digital imaging market.
Leo
 
I hope everyone realises that sensor manufacturing is very capital-intensive, really very with fabs costing usd 1 billion and more

as a result, a relatively small company like Nikon, just cannot enter that field - it's a much more logical decision to leave it to someone else to make the sensors (and earn a low economic return doing that), and earn a higher economic return by adding value on top of the sensor, typically (1) via image processing, and (2) by wrapping the sensor in a very competent camera body.
  • until recently anyone that took a Nikon DSLR apart, saw "Sony" printed on the sensor
  • more recently, some sensors have shown up with "Nikon" printed on them. Which simply means that Nikon as a customer, asked Sony to please print "Nikon" on the Sony chips
The m43 sensors tend to earn lower markss with DxO because, among other things:
  • their IQ at higher ISOs while good, is still behind best practice, and so they get penalised
  • the black box used by DxO seems to award a fairly high weight to the number of pixels, but m43 sensors still have fairly low pixel counts
At the end of the day, who cares? DxO is just a black box tool to grade sensors, and history have shown the limits of that black box (the first time they graded mid-frame sensors those came out very low, so every serious photographer made fun of DxO, so they modified the black box...).

What matters is not the DxO score: it's whether the photographer likes the IQ from a given camera and its lens or lenses; and whether the photographer likes the overall package including size, weight, user-friendliness. And you also have to factor in how much it costs.
It is dark in that DXO black box and we cannot see clearly, but it's not only the DXO black box that is dark. The way they behave is even darker, if you consider the timing of the release of the scores for E-M5. This is the most significant and interesting camera that numerous people have wanted to get scored by DXO and openly and repeatedly requested that. Yet DXO only released the scores months later after measurements were taken and known, after all the new cameras have been announced in Photokina, and after the scores for much later released cameras were published. And most intriguing, if not frustrating, is the fact that those results show nothing really unexpected or unacceptable to warrant such a unreasonable delay!!!

Could it be that DXO had little care for consumers who have come to trust and rely on DXO for confirmation of quality, little attention and priority to their own blog members who repeatedly asked for the E-M5 rating, and even no concern for their own growing reputation as a trusted provider of sensor quality information? I think not. There is obviously considerable procrastination and consideration of what their action in this case is doing. Something is very wrong, particularly as no explanation was given. Even when they decided to take a month off and announced that, they would still not bother to release the scores already in their hands.

It is not unreasonable to think that something very secretive has been going on. I think they fully realise they could be influencing buying decisions, which can have very significant financial consequences for Olympus as well as its competitors. I also think that it is not just a co-incidence that those scores are so reasonable as published. Could the scores be very different when measured, since it makes no sense for the to be delayed for so long otherwise? It is unthinkable but then it is not impossible, given what transpired, that there might have been adjustments to the black box, i.e. these scores were cooked. If there is any doubt, then can we trust DXO any more? If not, then there is an even more serious possbility/effect, i.e. the delay could be helping some other brands whether done intentionally or unintentionally. Without a proper explanation, is it unreasonable for us to doubt the integrity of this company and its credibilty?
 
Correction below in bold
I hope everyone realises that sensor manufacturing is very capital-intensive, really very with fabs costing usd 1 billion and more

as a result, a relatively small company like Nikon, just cannot enter that field - it's a much more logical decision to leave it to someone else to make the sensors (and earn a low economic return doing that), and earn a higher economic return by adding value on top of the sensor, typically (1) via image processing, and (2) by wrapping the sensor in a very competent camera body.
  • until recently anyone that took a Nikon DSLR apart, saw "Sony" printed on the sensor
  • more recently, some sensors have shown up with "Nikon" printed on them. Which simply means that Nikon as a customer, asked Sony to please print "Nikon" on the Sony chips
The m43 sensors tend to earn lower markss with DxO because, among other things:
  • their IQ at higher ISOs while good, is still behind best practice, and so they get penalised
  • the black box used by DxO seems to award a fairly high weight to the number of pixels, but m43 sensors still have fairly low pixel counts
At the end of the day, who cares? DxO is just a black box tool to grade sensors, and history have shown the limits of that black box (the first time they graded mid-frame sensors those came out very low, so every serious photographer made fun of DxO, so they modified the black box...).

What matters is not the DxO score: it's whether the photographer likes the IQ from a given camera and its lens or lenses; and whether the photographer likes the overall package including size, weight, user-friendliness. And you also have to factor in how much it costs.
It is dark in that DXO black box and we cannot see clearly, but it's not only the DXO black box that is dark. The way they behave is even darker, if you consider the timing of the release of the scores for E-M5. This is the most significant and interesting camera that numerous people have wanted to get scored by DXO and openly and repeatedly requested that. Yet DXO only released the scores months later after measurements were taken and known, after all the new cameras have been announced in Photokina, and after the scores for much later released cameras were published. And most intriguing, if not frustrating, is the fact that those results show nothing really unexpected or unacceptable to warrant such a unreasonable delay!!!

Could it be that DXO had little care for consumers who have come to trust and rely on DXO for confirmation of quality, little attention and priority to their own blog members who repeatedly asked for the E-M5 rating, and even no concern for their own growing reputation as a trusted provider of sensor quality information? I think not. There is obviously considerable procrastination and consideration of what their action in this case is doing. Something is very wrong, particularly as no explanation was given. Even when they decided to take a month off and announced that, they would still not bother to release the scores already in their hands.

It is not unreasonable to think that something very secretive has been going on. I think they fully realise they could be influencing buying decisions, which can have very significant financial consequences for Olympus as well as its competitors. I also think that it is not just a co-incidence that those scores are so reasonable as published. Could the scores be very different when measured, since it makes no sense for the to be delayed for so long otherwise? It is unthinkable but then it is not impossible, given what transpired, that there might have been adjustments to the black box, i.e. these scores were cooked. If there is any doubt, then can we trust DXO any more if scores can be cooked, or measuring methods changed without explanation or notification ? If not cooked , then there is an even more serious possbility/effect, i.e. the delay could be helping some other brands whether done intentionally or unintentionally. Without a proper explanation, is it unreasonable for us to doubt the integrity of this company and its credibility?
 
We're talking about sensors, not lenses. Do you have a pathological need to twist every discussion to fit your pet viewpoints? What I really don't understand, though, is why, since you appear to dislike m43 so much, you bother to post here at all.

Ignoring, for the moment, your continued obnoxious attempts to steal every thread, my argument holds true for lenses, too. The lenses available for m43 are much better than necessary to make photographs that are good enough for anything below about 20x30 prints. I'd argue the 7-14 is as good as all but hte Nikon 14-24, which is more than double the price. The 25 PL, while pricy, is on par with pretty much any FF 50. The 12mm is also stellar, from what I've seen and read.

Even with "lesser" m43 lenses, if you can't make "professional" quality images with any of the 16MP m43 cameras (and even the 12MP ones in many cases), the problem is not the hardware. It's the wetware behind the camera.
My purpose in owning a camera is to make photographs. Preferably good photographs, that capture what I saw, or wanted to capture (not necessarily the same thing).

Regardless of how much higher the DXOMark score might be for a FF camera, the OMD and GH2 are both good enough to meet my creative vision. But for those who like numbers, here's an interesting comparison. When the EOS 5D was introduced, its IQ wowed everyone. It was widely held to be acceptable for any professional use, except maybe sports. How does the OMD compare?

Overall score: OMD 71, EOS 5D 71

Portrait: OMD 22.8, EOS 22.9

DR: OMD 12.3, EOS 11.1

Only in low-light, high-iso shooting does the OMD fall behind, at 826 vs. 1368.

Unless you like to shoot the proverbial "black cat in a coal bin," the OM-D is more than capable of professional quality results.
Except, there is nothing in the m43 lineup that matches most of the pro lenses: e.g. 85/1.4, 100/2, 70-200/2.8, etc, etc... and, no, you wont convince me that the 45/1.8 is the same as the 85/1.4 (or 1.8). I suspect most people shooting FF arent convinced either.
--

I've stopped thinking in terms of "equivalent" focal lengths on m43. 25mm is what it is, and what it might be similar to on some other format doesn't matter to me any more. We need to learn what to expect from our current equipment, not keep mapping it to the old. No one refers to their 50mm FF lens as "equivalent to 80mm on MF."
--

I've stopped thinking in terms of "equivalent" focal lengths on m43. 25mm is what it is, and what it might be similar to on some other format doesn't matter to me any more. We need to learn what to expect from our current equipment, not keep mapping it to the old. No one refers to their 50mm FF lens as "equivalent to 80mm on MF."
 
Even if this does happen (and it's not confirmed or final at the moment), Sony's investment amounts to 10% of Olympus. That's hardly a controlling interest, and hardly a sign that Sony will control Olympus' direction.
--

I've stopped thinking in terms of "equivalent" focal lengths on m43. 25mm is what it is, and what it might be similar to on some other format doesn't matter to me any more. We need to learn what to expect from our current equipment, not keep mapping it to the old. No one refers to their 50mm FF lens as "equivalent to 80mm on MF."
 
First, I'd be interested in taking a second look at the images where you had color shift in the corners with the G1 (using the 14-45 if I recall correctly).
I will have to dig those up at some point. Don't have a pro flickr account, so those got nuked the last time I went through to clear out space.
You have all three, so would you be willing to take some simple test shots, similar to those last posted by me in that thread, using for example your 45/1.8, preferably wide open.
Actually, I "only" have the GF1/GF2/G1/GH2 on hand... the EM5 is camera I am all but sold on, but will probably wait until the snow season starts (after the new year) and getting RRS brackets / spare batteries is something I still have to tackle (not that easy from Japan).

--
-CW
 
well check those technical measurement .. the OM-D had a good sensor, yes but the sensor is not up to the latest of FF but almost matching the APS-C. I wonder what would be the latest reading Dxo would get from this newer slew of 16MP Sony ( NEX-5R, NEX-6 , K-5IIs )

--
  • Franka -
 
you know, you never win in front of a lady , any lady ( and especially not your other half ) .... LOL
--
  • Franka -
 
Oops, my fault. Well, the difference is not 2stops exactly because there's the "shoulder" in the OMD graph, which is also present in the 5N graph. The D800 and the D600 show a very linear decay, +- measurement margins of error.
Sorry, but I am not sure I follow you here. Exactly which 2-stop difference between which cameras are you talking about here? I think I understand what you mean by "shoulder" in the E-M5 and 5N graphs, but I am still not sure exactly what you have in mind.
D800 x OMD, your images, which show the difference is less than 2 stops. W/o the shoulder, you'd probably get the 2 stop expected difference because of area.

The point is: technology advances, but for everybody. The 4x area difference will carry a typical 2stop/2EV difference FT to FF, in most IQ areas. Now and then you have a discompass, a slight difference in RAw treatment, etc, that may change that slightly, but it's basic Physics at work. Same for the 2.25x larger area from APS-C to FF, about 1.3stop/EV difference.

Now that Oly have used Sony, that will be even more evident compared to Sony/Nikon/Pentax, all using Sony as well. And Sony just got 10% stock in Oly.
Perceptually, yes, the D600 is about 1.3-1.5 stop better than the D7000:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/rhlpedrosa/8020832810/sizes/o/in/photostream/
I am not sure with which jpeg settings these were shot. In order to see what the sensor, as opposed to in-camera jpeg processing, is really good for we need to look at identically processed RAWs from the cameras in question, like those offered by DPR.
These were converted in CNX2, same settings, chroma NR sett to off (just like ACR/LR, CNX2 has default chroma NR applied). Same camera profiles (Standard). Given tests done with D800 and D7000 (similar to these in results), using ACR, and tests D800 x D600 with CNX2 (about same results), it's fair to conlcude the 1.3-1.5 stop advantage is there. As expected, actually, 2.25x more area.
--
Renato.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rhlpedrosa/
OnExposure member
http://www.onexposure.net/

Good shooting and good luck
(after Ed Murrow)
 
From Bill Claff's measurements, it seems the OMD's sensor/ADC uses a more updated tech, since DR seems to be almost at the ideal level for FT sensor size. I'd like to hear from Bob Newman, and your view on that.
--
Renato.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rhlpedrosa/
OnExposure member
http://www.onexposure.net/

Good shooting and good luck
(after Ed Murrow)
 
From Bill Claff's measurements, it seems the OMD's sensor/ADC uses a more updated tech, since DR seems to be almost at the ideal level for FT sensor size. I'd like to hear from Bob Newman, and your view on that.
I think you already got the most important part of the explanation in another thread, but let me know if there is still something you want me to comment on.
 
I rushed that post and gave some inaccurate FWC data. Generally I don't care about FWC.
Probably the numbers in this post
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1041&message=42602910
that I just made fit better with your expectations.

As I said in that post, values derived from DxOLabs, such as those reported by Sensorgen, need further refinement to be truly useful.
Thanks Bill. Yes, the data you posted in that other thread seem reasonable enough.
 
Oops, my fault. Well, the difference is not 2stops exactly because there's the "shoulder" in the OMD graph, which is also present in the 5N graph. The D800 and the D600 show a very linear decay, +- measurement margins of error.
Sorry, but I am not sure I follow you here. Exactly which 2-stop difference between which cameras are you talking about here? I think I understand what you mean by "shoulder" in the E-M5 and 5N graphs, but I am still not sure exactly what you have in mind.
D800 x OMD, your images, which show the difference is less than 2 stops. W/o the shoulder, you'd probably get the 2 stop expected difference because of area.
But the images I showed are from a part of the graph (ISO 1600 and ISO 6400) where the DR slopes linearly downwards by roughly the same amount (one EV loss of DR per ISO doubling). So how could straigthening out the "shoulder" at low ISOs for the E-M5 change anything here? It would just make the low-ISO difference less pronounced than it now is.
The point is: technology advances, but for everybody. The 4x area difference will carry a typical 2stop/2EV difference FT to FF, in most IQ areas. Now and then you have a discompass, a slight difference in RAw treatment, etc, that may change that slightly, but it's basic Physics at work. Same for the 2.25x larger area from APS-C to FF, about 1.3stop/EV difference.
No. The point I am trying to make is that while the area difference have implications of exactly the kind you indicate for photon noise, it does not have such implications when it comes to read noise and thus DR and shadow noise. This is an important point since it is usually missing in standard dicussions involving cross-format comparisons.

I fully accept that FF differs from MFT by two stops when it comes to DoF, diffraction, and light accumulation/photon noise and it happens rather frequently that I take issue with people here who do not accept that claim. But, as indicated, read noise does not follow the same rules and this has important implications for image quality that reduces, and in some situations, reverses the general advantage that the larger format enjoys.
Now that Oly have used Sony, that will be even more evident compared to Sony/Nikon/Pentax, all using Sony as well. And Sony just got 10% stock in Oly.
Perceptually, yes, the D600 is about 1.3-1.5 stop better than the D7000:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/rhlpedrosa/8020832810/sizes/o/in/photostream/
I am not sure with which jpeg settings these were shot. In order to see what the sensor, as opposed to in-camera jpeg processing, is really good for we need to look at identically processed RAWs from the cameras in question, like those offered by DPR.
These were converted in CNX2, same settings, chroma NR sett to off (just like ACR/LR, CNX2 has default chroma NR applied). Same camera profiles (Standard). Given tests done with D800 and D7000 (similar to these in results), using ACR, and tests D800 x D600 with CNX2 (about same results), it's fair to conlcude the 1.3-1.5 stop advantage is there. As expected, actually, 2.25x more area.
--
Renato.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rhlpedrosa/
OnExposure member
http://www.onexposure.net/

Good shooting and good luck
(after Ed Murrow)
 

Keyboard shortcuts

Back
Top