DSLR with "Live" Histogram?

[Alpha Doug]

Does anyone know if there are any digital SLR's that have a live histogram display while setting up a shot. In other words, the output of the metering system on the LCD? I'm not sure how this could be achieved, but, while I want to move up to a DSLR, I hate to leave behind the liver histogram mode on my A1. I guess if I could have my druthers, I would like to have a camera body like the A2 with the EVF that has something like 920,000 pixels (100 percent field of view an live histogram) but be able to use removable lenses. Oh well.

 

[nerdag]

Does anyone know if there are any digital SLR's that have a live
histogram display while setting up a shot. In other words, the
output of the metering system on the LCD? I'm not sure how this
could be achieved, but,

Not yet - in current SLR Designs, the mirror is in the way of the sensor, which obviously prevents any light getting to it. Maybe somebody will design a rangefinder that has a live hisotgram. (I don't think the Epson RD-1 has one, although I could be wrong). Rangefinders don't use a mirror for the OVF.

while I want to move up to a DSLR, I hate
to leave behind the liver histogram mode on my A1. I guess if I
could have my druthers, I would like to have a camera body like the
A2 with the EVF that has something like 920,000 pixels (100 percent
field of view an live histogram) but be able to use removable
lenses. Oh well.

No EVF, irresepctive of its resolution, will ever be better than a true optical viewfinder. Apart from there being too many limitations (at least currently) to an EVF being a viable alternative to an OVF, there's no real need, because in an SLR, what you you is more or less what you get, at least in terms of perpective, composition, and framing.

I think if you try it one out while (I presume you're in the market for a lower-end model dSLR), be it from a friend, or even at the dealer, and see how you go with it. The responsiveness of most dSLRs today will blow the socks of any prosumer digicam you care to name, A2 included.

HTH,

--
nerdag

 

[riddell]

It is extremly unlikely you'll ever find a dSLR with EVF or Live histograms.
This has been discussed on here many times.

Manufactures rightly take the attitude that someone with an SLR has the decent photographic skills. Therefore a live histogram becomes less useful, and an EVF totally useless.

Does anyone know if there are any digital SLR's that have a live
histogram display while setting up a shot. In other words, the
output of the metering system on the LCD? I'm not sure how this
could be achieved, but, while I want to move up to a DSLR, I hate
to leave behind the liver histogram mode on my A1. I guess if I
could have my druthers, I would like to have a camera body like the
A2 with the EVF that has something like 920,000 pixels (100 percent
field of view an live histogram) but be able to use removable
lenses. Oh well.

 

[dcook]

My recommendation...chimp! I set my playback so I can view the histogram and get a quick read on exposure for trickier shots. It's not a live histogram, but it's darn close and works well for making quick adjustments.

I've had minoltas with live histogram feature and actually found myself too focused on the exposure and not enough on composition. Now that I don't have the live histogram, I actually prefer checking afterwards. I think my photos are better (setting aside quality differences in cameras). My two cents.

Does anyone know if there are any digital SLR's that have a live
histogram display while setting up a shot. In other words, the
output of the metering system on the LCD? I'm not sure how this
could be achieved, but, while I want to move up to a DSLR, I hate
to leave behind the liver histogram mode on my A1. I guess if I
could have my druthers, I would like to have a camera body like the
A2 with the EVF that has something like 920,000 pixels (100 percent
field of view an live histogram) but be able to use removable
lenses. Oh well.

 

[Daniel Bell]

I've had minoltas with live histogram feature and actually found
myself too focused on the exposure and not enough on composition.
Now that I don't have the live histogram, I actually prefer
checking afterwards. I think my photos are better (setting aside
quality differences in cameras). My two cents.

And I'll bet you now have a pretty good idea of what the histogram is going to tell you before you look at it. When I had a camera with a stopped-down metering system, I got pretty good at estimating what the meter was going to tell me before I turned it on. Using the histogram isn't all that different (except that you can find out right away whether or not your eyeballs got it right, instead of having to wait until you see the slides... usually after the opportunity to reshoot is gone...).

--
http://www.forgottenspaces.com

 

[barolo]

I think that the interest of having an EVF also in a DSRL is related to the possibility to compose the image with great care in situations in which it is not so easy to see through the standard optical viewfinder. For instance, i like to compose still life images using the EVF of my small Canon S50 better than using the optical viewfinder of my Contax Aria, although it is a good one. Obviously when shooting in the street i prefere by far the optical VF. Therefore, in my opinion, the possibility to have BOTH the EVF and the optical VF would be wellcome.

I also do not understand why it is SO difficult. Clearly there is the mirror, but the mirror could be lifted (as it has obviously to be done when shooting) and the image directly obtained from the sensor. I think this is the way Fuji S3 works, unfortunately with many limitations.

I hope in the (near?) future cameras will have both types of finder. I think it can be useful.

Alessandro

I've had minoltas with live histogram feature and actually found
myself too focused on the exposure and not enough on composition.
Now that I don't have the live histogram, I actually prefer
checking afterwards. I think my photos are better (setting aside
quality differences in cameras). My two cents.

And I'll bet you now have a pretty good idea of what the histogram
is going to tell you before you look at it. When I had a camera
with a stopped-down metering system, I got pretty good at
estimating what the meter was going to tell me before I turned it
on. Using the histogram isn't all that different (except that you
can find out right away whether or not your eyeballs got it right,
instead of having to wait until you see the slides... usually after
the opportunity to reshoot is gone...).

--
http://www.forgottenspaces.com

 

[Mike Fulton]

I think that the interest of having an EVF also in a DSRL is
related to the possibility to compose the image with great care in
situations in which it is not so easy to see through the standard
optical viewfinder. For instance, i like to compose still life
images using the EVF of my small Canon S50 better than using the
optical viewfinder of my Contax Aria, although it is a good one.
Obviously when shooting in the street i prefere by far the optical
VF. Therefore, in my opinion, the possibility to have BOTH the EVF
and the optical VF would be wellcome.

I think you're confused about what "EVF" means. An "EVF" is an electronic viewfinder that is otherwise similar to an optical viewfinder, where you put your eye up to it to view the image.

The LCD display on the BACK of a camera is not an EVF even when it shows a live image.

I also do not understand why it is SO difficult. Clearly there is
the mirror, but the mirror could be lifted (as it has obviously to
be done when shooting) and the image directly obtained from the
sensor. I think this is the way Fuji S3 works, unfortunately with
many limitations.

Point & shoot cameras that offer a live LCD preview typically use much less sophisticated autofocus and exposure systems than an SLR camera, and this is largely due to differences in the optical path.

With an SLR, the sensors for the autofocus system or the exposure system are typically located in the viewfinder prism. If you lift the mirror so that the image sensor will be exposed, then the optical viewfinder will no longer have an image, so the autofocus and exposure systems won't work.

The only way around this is to use a beam splitter or semi-transparent mirror instead of a reflex system, so that the optical viewfinder and image sensor BOTH get some of the incoming light. But this results in reduced viewfinder brightness and a reduction in the amount of light hitting the image sensor. There have been a few cameras that do this (i.e. Olympus E-10 & E-20) but not everybody considers it a worthwhile tradeoff.

Furthermore, this sort of system means that the image sensor must be exposed ALL the time, which is a problem if you're using a mechanical shutter because now when the trigger is pressed, you've got to close the shutter, then fire it for the exposure, then open it again. You're doing twice the amount of work, which is going to have a big impact on shutter lag.

Mike

 

[J Thompson]

Some one in the 20D forum once wrote that the reason Canon didn't provide the 20D a spot meter is because they felt that someone willing to spend the money on the 20D is probably already very good at deciding proper exposure, so there the spot meter is not needed.

The truth is, most any pro, even the best 10 pros in the world would gladly welcome a life histogram. It would be a very useful tool because it would give feeback realtime to the pro.

The creme-de-la-creme, the very best are not so arrogant as to think they're too good for such a feature.

JT

Manufactures rightly take the attitude that someone with an SLR has
the decent photographic skills. Therefore a live histogram becomes
less useful, and an EVF totally useless.

Does anyone know if there are any digital SLR's that have a live
histogram display while setting up a shot. In other words, the
output of the metering system on the LCD? I'm not sure how this
could be achieved, but, while I want to move up to a DSLR, I hate
to leave behind the liver histogram mode on my A1. I guess if I
could have my druthers, I would like to have a camera body like the
A2 with the EVF that has something like 920,000 pixels (100 percent
field of view an live histogram) but be able to use removable
lenses. Oh well.

--
To over-expose is human...

 

[barolo]

you are right about the name, i was erroneously using the name EVF for LCD preview. Nevertheless i still think that to have both the optical VF and the live LCD would be useful, if one is interested in still life photos. I do not care about the slowness of the procedure consisting in moving up and down the mirror, since the main pain is due to the difficulty of composing the image through the optical WF, specially so when the object is in an unfortunate position. Macros are another example where a live LCD would be useful.

I think that the interest of having an EVF also in a DSRL is
related to the possibility to compose the image with great care in
situations in which it is not so easy to see through the standard
optical viewfinder. For instance, i like to compose still life
images using the EVF of my small Canon S50 better than using the
optical viewfinder of my Contax Aria, although it is a good one.
Obviously when shooting in the street i prefere by far the optical
VF. Therefore, in my opinion, the possibility to have BOTH the EVF
and the optical VF would be wellcome.

I think you're confused about what "EVF" means. An "EVF" is an
electronic viewfinder that is otherwise similar to an optical
viewfinder, where you put your eye up to it to view the image.

The LCD display on the BACK of a camera is not an EVF even when
it shows a live image.

I also do not understand why it is SO difficult. Clearly there is
the mirror, but the mirror could be lifted (as it has obviously to
be done when shooting) and the image directly obtained from the
sensor. I think this is the way Fuji S3 works, unfortunately with
many limitations.

Point & shoot cameras that offer a live LCD preview typically use
much less sophisticated autofocus and exposure systems than an SLR
camera, and this is largely due to differences in the optical path.

With an SLR, the sensors for the autofocus system or the exposure
system are typically located in the viewfinder prism. If you lift
the mirror so that the image sensor will be exposed, then the
optical viewfinder will no longer have an image, so the autofocus
and exposure systems won't work.

The only way around this is to use a beam splitter or
semi-transparent mirror instead of a reflex system, so that the
optical viewfinder and image sensor BOTH get some of the incoming
light. But this results in reduced viewfinder brightness and a
reduction in the amount of light hitting the image sensor. There
have been a few cameras that do this (i.e. Olympus E-10 & E-20) but
not everybody considers it a worthwhile tradeoff.

Furthermore, this sort of system means that the image sensor must
be exposed ALL the time, which is a problem if you're using a
mechanical shutter because now when the trigger is pressed, you've
got to close the shutter, then fire it for the exposure, then open
it again. You're doing twice the amount of work, which is going to
have a big impact on shutter lag.

Mike

 

[Mike Fulton]

Some one in the 20D forum once wrote that the reason Canon didn't
provide the 20D a spot meter is because they felt that someone
willing to spend the money on the 20D is probably already very good
at deciding proper exposure, so there the spot meter is not needed.

The truth is, most any pro, even the best 10 pros in the world
would gladly welcome a life histogram. It would be a very useful
tool because it would give feeback realtime to the pro.
The creme-de-la-creme, the very best are not so arrogant as to
think they're too good for such a feature.

I don't think ANYBODY, especially pros, would turn down a live histogram feature if there were no tradeoff involved.

But the problem is that there are really, really BIG tradeoffs when you're talking about adding live preview to an SLR camera. And pros are simply NOT WILLING, in general, to give up those other features that would have to go.

Mike

 

[Mike Fulton]

you are right about the name, i was erroneously using the name EVF
for LCD preview. Nevertheless i still think that to have both the
optical VF and the live LCD would be useful, if one is interested
in still life photos. I do not care about the slowness of the
procedure consisting in moving up and down the mirror, since the
main pain is due to the difficulty of composing the image through
the optical WF, specially so when the object is in an unfortunate
position. Macros are another example where a live LCD would be
useful.

While it's true that shutter lag isn't really a major issue with shooting still lifes, it is a major issue with almost everything else.

On the other hand, if you're shooting a still life, what's the big deal about taking one shot to view the histogram, adjusting the exposure as indicated, and then taking another shot? Especially since you can delete the first shot instead of keeping it? This gives you the best of both worlds.

And while this doesn't help with composing the image, you might consider that camera makers often offer a special viewfinder attachment that makes looking through the viewfinder at odd angles easier. They typically look like a small periscope and slide onto the back of the camera over the viewfinder. They can be rotated around as needed to get the best angle.

Mike

 

[riddell]

The thing with things like EVF, LCD preview whatever, if you speak to most inexperienced people - they all want them. Speak to most professionals, and they wouldn't go near them, because they understand all the limitations.

A lot of features are like this in the photography world. This is why your marketing man influenced camera is full of junk, and your top end pro bodies are purposeful and need great skill to operate.

I know that when i was inexperienced I wanted this and that, but years later I wonder what on earth I was thinking of?

you are right about the name, i was erroneously using the name EVF
for LCD preview. Nevertheless i still think that to have both the
optical VF and the live LCD would be useful, if one is interested
in still life photos. I do not care about the slowness of the
procedure consisting in moving up and down the mirror, since the
main pain is due to the difficulty of composing the image through
the optical WF, specially so when the object is in an unfortunate
position. Macros are another example where a live LCD would be
useful.

While it's true that shutter lag isn't really a major issue with
shooting still lifes, it is a major issue with almost everything
else.

On the other hand, if you're shooting a still life, what's the big
deal about taking one shot to view the histogram, adjusting the
exposure as indicated, and then taking another shot? Especially
since you can delete the first shot instead of keeping it? This
gives you the best of both worlds.

And while this doesn't help with composing the image, you might
consider that camera makers often offer a special viewfinder
attachment that makes looking through the viewfinder at odd angles
easier. They typically look like a small periscope and slide onto
the back of the camera over the viewfinder. They can be rotated
around as needed to get the best angle.

Mike

 

[RDKirk]

I may be an old fuddy who doesn't see the light, but I'm not seeing how a live histogram would improve the process.

This is not "SLR vs EVF." If an SLR provided a live histogram, how does that improve the process over "snap and check histogram?"

Does anyone know if there are any digital SLR's that have a live
histogram display while setting up a shot. In other words, the
output of the metering system on the LCD? I'm not sure how this
could be achieved, but, while I want to move up to a DSLR, I hate
to leave behind the liver histogram mode on my A1. I guess if I
could have my druthers, I would like to have a camera body like the
A2 with the EVF that has something like 920,000 pixels (100 percent
field of view an live histogram) but be able to use removable
lenses. Oh well.

--
RDKirk
'TANSTAAFL: The only unbreakable rule in photography.'

 

[barolo]

I think that one has all simply to figure out what he/she really neads. And please, be careful before generalizing... a famous italian photographer, Pepi Merisio, who was already shooting some 50 years ago, recently declared that, concernng digital cameras, he likes what most people here would call point and shot, exactly because it is possible to compose the frame in a way not too different from MF and LF cameras... So... one should be careful before stating that certain requests come only from "illiterate" persons.

best regards. alessandro

A lot of features are like this in the photography world. This is
why your marketing man influenced camera is full of junk, and your
top end pro bodies are purposeful and need great skill to operate.

I know that when i was inexperienced I wanted this and that, but
years later I wonder what on earth I was thinking of?

you are right about the name, i was erroneously using the name EVF
for LCD preview. Nevertheless i still think that to have both the
optical VF and the live LCD would be useful, if one is interested
in still life photos. I do not care about the slowness of the
procedure consisting in moving up and down the mirror, since the
main pain is due to the difficulty of composing the image through
the optical WF, specially so when the object is in an unfortunate
position. Macros are another example where a live LCD would be
useful.

While it's true that shutter lag isn't really a major issue with
shooting still lifes, it is a major issue with almost everything
else.

On the other hand, if you're shooting a still life, what's the big
deal about taking one shot to view the histogram, adjusting the
exposure as indicated, and then taking another shot? Especially
since you can delete the first shot instead of keeping it? This
gives you the best of both worlds.

And while this doesn't help with composing the image, you might
consider that camera makers often offer a special viewfinder
attachment that makes looking through the viewfinder at odd angles
easier. They typically look like a small periscope and slide onto
the back of the camera over the viewfinder. They can be rotated
around as needed to get the best angle.

Mike

 

[Derekasaurus Rex]

I asked the same question a while ago:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=9225762

Does anyone know if there are any digital SLR's that have a live
histogram display while setting up a shot. In other words, the
output of the metering system on the LCD? I'm not sure how this
could be achieved, but, while I want to move up to a DSLR, I hate
to leave behind the liver histogram mode on my A1. I guess if I
could have my druthers, I would like to have a camera body like the
A2 with the EVF that has something like 920,000 pixels (100 percent
field of view an live histogram) but be able to use removable
lenses. Oh well.

 

[riddell]

I'm not sure if it is a mistake in your English here or not, but your arguement does not make sense. MF / LF cameras are certianly not 'point and shoot' MF and LF cameras are in general 100% manual, until very recently at least.

and an 'illreate' person is very different from an inexperienced person.

best regards. alessandro

A lot of features are like this in the photography world. This is
why your marketing man influenced camera is full of junk, and your
top end pro bodies are purposeful and need great skill to operate.

I know that when i was inexperienced I wanted this and that, but
years later I wonder what on earth I was thinking of?

you are right about the name, i was erroneously using the name EVF
for LCD preview. Nevertheless i still think that to have both the
optical VF and the live LCD would be useful, if one is interested
in still life photos. I do not care about the slowness of the
procedure consisting in moving up and down the mirror, since the
main pain is due to the difficulty of composing the image through
the optical WF, specially so when the object is in an unfortunate
position. Macros are another example where a live LCD would be
useful.

While it's true that shutter lag isn't really a major issue with
shooting still lifes, it is a major issue with almost everything
else.

On the other hand, if you're shooting a still life, what's the big
deal about taking one shot to view the histogram, adjusting the
exposure as indicated, and then taking another shot? Especially
since you can delete the first shot instead of keeping it? This
gives you the best of both worlds.

And while this doesn't help with composing the image, you might
consider that camera makers often offer a special viewfinder
attachment that makes looking through the viewfinder at odd angles
easier. They typically look like a small periscope and slide onto
the back of the camera over the viewfinder. They can be rotated
around as needed to get the best angle.

Mike

 

[barolo]

my english is certainly poor. i do not know about your italian. i do think that what i wanted to say was clear nevertheless. please write to Pepi Merisio explaining him what a view camera is, maybe he forgot.

regards. alessandro

and an 'illreate' person is very different from an inexperienced
person.

best regards. alessandro

A lot of features are like this in the photography world. This is
why your marketing man influenced camera is full of junk, and your
top end pro bodies are purposeful and need great skill to operate.

I know that when i was inexperienced I wanted this and that, but
years later I wonder what on earth I was thinking of?

you are right about the name, i was erroneously using the name EVF
for LCD preview. Nevertheless i still think that to have both the
optical VF and the live LCD would be useful, if one is interested
in still life photos. I do not care about the slowness of the
procedure consisting in moving up and down the mirror, since the
main pain is due to the difficulty of composing the image through
the optical WF, specially so when the object is in an unfortunate
position. Macros are another example where a live LCD would be
useful.

While it's true that shutter lag isn't really a major issue with
shooting still lifes, it is a major issue with almost everything
else.

On the other hand, if you're shooting a still life, what's the big
deal about taking one shot to view the histogram, adjusting the
exposure as indicated, and then taking another shot? Especially
since you can delete the first shot instead of keeping it? This
gives you the best of both worlds.

And while this doesn't help with composing the image, you might
consider that camera makers often offer a special viewfinder
attachment that makes looking through the viewfinder at odd angles
easier. They typically look like a small periscope and slide onto
the back of the camera over the viewfinder. They can be rotated
around as needed to get the best angle.

Mike

 

[Joseph S Wisniewski]

I don't think ANYBODY, especially pros, would turn down a live
histogram feature if there were no tradeoff involved.

But the problem is that there are really, really BIG tradeoffs when
you're talking about adding live preview to an SLR camera. And
pros are simply NOT WILLING, in general, to give up those other
features that would have to go.

He didn't say "preview", he said "histogram". Remember, the Nikon D1X, D1H, D2X, D2H, and D70 have 1005 zone CCDs for their metering systems, and are quite capable of producing histograms on the fly.

--
A cyberstalker told me not to post anymore...
So I'm posting even more!

Ciao!

Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com

 

[riddell]

Not with the mirror in the way they are not.

I don't think ANYBODY, especially pros, would turn down a live
histogram feature if there were no tradeoff involved.

But the problem is that there are really, really BIG tradeoffs when
you're talking about adding live preview to an SLR camera. And
pros are simply NOT WILLING, in general, to give up those other
features that would have to go.

He didn't say "preview", he said "histogram". Remember, the Nikon
D1X, D1H, D2X, D2H, and D70 have 1005 zone CCDs for their metering
systems, and are quite capable of producing histograms on the fly.

--
A cyberstalker told me not to post anymore...
So I'm posting even more!

Ciao!

Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com

 

[Dan179]

and i thing the first company who made this will be KonicaMinolta ;-)

Does anyone know if there are any digital SLR's that have a live
histogram display while setting up a shot. In other words, the
output of the metering system on the LCD? I'm not sure how this
could be achieved, but, while I want to move up to a DSLR, I hate
to leave behind the liver histogram mode on my A1. I guess if I
could have my druthers, I would like to have a camera body like the
A2 with the EVF that has something like 920,000 pixels (100 percent
field of view an live histogram) but be able to use removable
lenses. Oh well.