Dpreview G1 Preview Revisited

Robert Deutsch wrote:
[snip]
weight. I like the idea of body-based IS myself, and this has been a
major part of Olympus' claim to fame, so if they did not incorporate
it into the design of the G1 then I suspect they had good technical
reasons for that decision. (Canon and Nikon have both rejected
body-based IS as being less effective then lens-based, but, arguably,
they have a history of lens design that they may be unwilling to
abandon for marketing reasons.)
Exactly. Plus, at least in Nikon's case, they STILL manufacture film cameras. In-lens stabilization may be more effective but having 2-stops' worth of stabilization is better than none at all.

larsbc
 
I still think you are making unwarranted assumptions.

The 14-50 is small enough, but not the 50-200, which looks enormous, thus defeating µ4/3 purpose.

Moreover in-body S. has reached 5 stops, according to Oly, in the E-3. So, no advantage there.

I like the G1, but OIS is still a mistake in µ4/3 purposes. Now let's see if DR and high ISO are competitive in the new sensor with APS, which is even more important.

Am.
--
Photostream: http://www.flickr.com/photos/7689141@N06/
 
Greg, that's slightly pessimistic IMHO.

Sunny sixteen recommends f/16, 1/100 ISO 100, or f/11, 1/800 ISO 400.

I've been shooting birds with the FZ5+c210 teleconverter at
432 x 1.9 = 821mm equiv. at f/3.3. ISO 80 IIRC, here in Sweden in the
afternoon. The c210 vignettes badly so I'd say the effective f-stop
(T-stop) is probably more like f/4.5. The OIS is only correcting half
the
shake since it thinks the FL is 432mm. Yet I'm getting usable
shutter speeds. It's not camera shake that is the limiting factor
for the results, it's that the FZ5+tcon combo isn't too fantastic
optically.
AF struggles too, but I use the focus lock button and OIS mode 1 to help
focus.
Erik there's a huge difference between what one can expect from your €350-400 pocketable setup, and a G1 + 45-200 + 2xTC = € 1000 - 1200 setup... If people pay DSLR kind of money, they want matching results. Almost all DSLR lenses have to be stopped down one or two stops the get good results, and then you are already around ISO 800-1600 if you need a fast shutter. You are right, it can be done, but I would say people would be disappointed with the results considering the cost.
The redeeming feature is that the combo still fits in the pocket of
one of
my jackets!

With more than two stops better ISO and one stop better OIS, I think
f/11 could give usable shutter speeds even here, in the summer.
Remains to see if they make a 2.0x and if it gives good results together
with the 45-200, and how the AF works.
Yes, in the summer when there's a clear blue sky, preferable bright feathered birds etc. etc... I don't think people would put up with limitations like this for top dollar.
Pany wants to sell faster long FL lenses for the birders.
Something like a 400/7.1 or 350/6.3 would be comparably
lightweight and affordable, I think.
400/7.1 would be interesting, if they can keep it light, but I doubt the G1 audience would give up too much versatility by buying 'dedicated' primes. A 20/1.7 is different, since it's a 'generic' FL. I think something like a 130-400/f6.3 would be more easy on the marketing department...
Is there anything in the lens map that would help with macros? I'd
like to be able to get a reasonably close shot of at least a flower...
The 45-200 with an achromatic macro lens. Those of various brands
that we use on the FZ cameras are often originally made for DSLR lenses,
I believe.
Why not a macro tube? Do you think an additional achromat would be better than simply a (wired) macro tube?
Lack of mirror vibrations should make the G1 easier to use for macro
than DSLRs. Not to mention the vari-angle LCD.
Yup, and 1:1 readout on the LCD for focusing, 'sticky' focus point etc...

--

 
Some wanted in body Image Stabization without realizing that the E210
already was reportedly too small to incorporate the same and also the
fact that in lens IS is essential for video unless you like to watch
the jiggles at high zoom ranges. I don't know of any camcorder that
doesn't use in lens optical IS system as a result.
Why do you say that G1 is too small to support in-body image
stabilization, and why do you think optical stabilization is required
for video?
It's an urban legend spreading from the Canikon camp faster than can be eradicated. As long as somebody doesn't explain why the STABILIZED live view feed from the E520 & E3 cannot be recorded to a flash card, it remains an urban legend.

There was a side by side pic of a E520 and E420 clearly showing the 'added' thickness of the SSIS. It's LESS than 5mm...

--

 
At first when I saw the G1 I was a bit disappointed that they'd chosen such an SLR like body. However, the more I have thought about it the more I think Panasonic got the compromise right for their first m4/3 camera. It has to appeal to the maximum amount of people so they want for the best compromise and a shape that would be familiar and appeal to a lot of people. In the future Panasonic will have plenty of time to come up with new camera shapes and styles to appeal to niche markets. There first aim is just to get a camera that works well and appeals to the maximum amount of people. When it is established, then is the time to push the boat out a bit more.
 
Sunny sixteen recommends f/16, 1/100 ISO 100, or f/11, 1/800 ISO 400.

I've been shooting birds with the FZ5+c210 teleconverter ...
Erik there's a huge difference between what one can expect from your
€350-400 pocketable setup, and a G1 + 45-200 + 2xTC = € 1000 - 1200
setup... If people pay DSLR kind of money, they want matching
results. Almost all DSLR lenses have to be stopped down one or two
stops the get good results
People using 4/3rds and another system often say that one advantage with
their Zuiko glass is that they don't have to remember which apertures to
avoid, getting good results already wide open. I think Panasonic's optics can
be on the same level, whether that's the case for their 45-200 remains to be
seen. There's no 2.0X tcon either so all this is very hypothetical anyway. :-)

If you need to stop down, the usufullness of the discussed combo is
limited to the very best light, of course.
400/7.1 would be interesting, if they can keep it light, but I doubt
the G1 audience would give up too much versatility by buying
'dedicated' primes.
You are probably right.
I think something like a 130-400/f6.3 would be more easy on the
marketing department...
And it could probably be 130-400/5-6.3 or so without stretching the design
effort much at all.

Still... I'm hesitating in getting the 400/5.6L (non-IS) for my Canon DSLR
because it's big and heavy at 1250g and 257mm (10"). And expensive
at €1150. A 400/6.3 or my suggested 400/7.1 would be lighter and the
latter maybe even cheaper, but add OIS and zoom and I think it gets
up to that weight again, and the price surpasses it.
Is there anything in the lens map that would help with macros? I'd
like to be able to get a reasonably close shot of at least a flower...
The 45-200 with an achromatic macro lens. Those of various brands
that we use on the FZ cameras are often originally made for DSLR lenses,
I believe.
Why not a macro tube? Do you think an additional achromat would be
better than simply a (wired) macro tube?
The question was limited to what was on the lens map and there is no
tube announced for µ4/3. Now I realise it would be possible to use the
4/3 adapter and the 25mm 4/3 tube and a 4/3rds lens. The viewfinder
getting darker is probably not an issue with the gain-up EVF, so it's
probably preferable to my suggestion (expect you need to buy three
extra accessories ...).

Just my two oere
Erik from Sweden
 
That means
that I should stop hoping that Panasonic will bring out an EVIL with
sensor IS
No you shouldn't:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEcJsksxsOo&feature=user

Skip to 2:35
Ok. I seem to recall a recommendation not to use that for a sustained
length of time, but maybe I'm mixing things up.
Not to mention, for motion pictures,
'stacking' the pics also offers a very effective software alternative
for OIS.
Yeah, I've got it on my Panny camcorder from 2002.
It actually works, but the downs side is the pictures have
to be cropped somewhat, so you'll loose a bit of the WA.
Yes, and each frame will suffer from the handshake during that frame.
AND not to forget, nobody says an SSIS body shouldn't be able to
accept an OIS lens for the long end or filming...
Yes, my ideal DSLR system would have sensor IS, but then OIS on long
lenses for AF stabilisation. But with EVIL we get a stabilised viewfinder and
AF also with sensor IS.
We have to see about the DR, but the E-510 had way too much read noise,
making it more DR-limited than a 4/3rds camera would have to be (giving
4/3rds an undeservedly bad reputation for DR), so there is a lot of
room for improvement.
That's what John S. calls "sloppy electronics"?
Yes, particularly regarding pattern noise, aka "banding", I think.

Most people blame the sensor for noise and limited DR, but DR (and shadow
noise) is mostly limited by the electronics downstream the sensor, at base ISO
at least.
Hop Pany does better this time...
With what they wrote about the LX3's improved electronics, I'm cautiously
optimistic.

Just my two oere
Erik from Sweden
 
If you need to stop down, the usufullness of the discussed combo is
limited to the very best light, of course.
400/7.1 would be interesting, if they can keep it light, but I doubt
the G1 audience would give up too much versatility by buying
'dedicated' primes.
You are probably right.
I think something like a 130-400/f6.3 would be more easy on the
marketing department...
And it could probably be 130-400/5-6.3 or so without stretching the
design
effort much at all.

Still... I'm hesitating in getting the 400/5.6L (non-IS) for my Canon
DSLR
because it's big and heavy at 1250g and 257mm (10"). And expensive
at €1150. A 400/6.3 or my suggested 400/7.1 would be lighter and the
latter maybe even cheaper, but add OIS and zoom and I think it gets
up to that weight again, and the price surpasses it.
In general, I would hesitate to buy a G1 for birding... With today's EVF technology, the m43 system excels in most respect, but the extreme long end for max DR and incredibly fast moving subjects not being one of them. It would still be a lot better than any FZ, but at the foreseeable pricepoint it better be right up there with the DSLR counterparts.
The question was limited to what was on the lens map and there is no
tube announced for µ4/3. Now I realise it would be possible to use the
4/3 adapter and the 25mm 4/3 tube and a 4/3rds lens. The viewfinder
getting darker is probably not an issue with the gain-up EVF, so it's
probably preferable to my suggestion (expect you need to buy three
extra accessories ...).
It depends on the price of course... This is the area where 3rd party vendors come into the picture. Get the m43 => 4/3" adapter + a 4/3" => PK or 42mm adapter, and use your favorite piece of legacy glass :)

I think it would take less than an afternoon for the Pany R&D department to design a macro tube. Basically it's two mounts and some wire.

--

 
I am interested but the lack of in-body IS is a big no-no. Just look
how big is the tele compared to the G1 body.
Remember it's 200mm.
The reason that the telephoto is big compared to the G1 body is
because it's a telephoto, not because it has IS. The Canon 70-200
f/4IS weighs 760g and non-IS weighs 705g. The length and diameter of
the two lenses are identical.
That could be because the non-IS version is, I assume, an older design. If
a new non-IS version were made, it could probably be shorter and lighter.

The Nikkor 55-200/4-5.6 is 79mm long in its non-VR version, but 99.5mm
in its VR version.

Just my two oere
Erik from Sweden
 
Ok. I seem to recall a recommendation not to use that for a sustained
length of time, but maybe I'm mixing things up.
Might be true, maybe it's not built to last hours and hours but this could probably we solved, but it could simply be a battery life issue.
Not to mention, for motion pictures,
'stacking' the pics also offers a very effective software alternative
for OIS.
Yeah, I've got it on my Panny camcorder from 2002.
And my JVCs (also Matsushita).
It actually works, but the downs side is the pictures have
to be cropped somewhat, so you'll loose a bit of the WA.
Yes, and each frame will suffer from the handshake during that frame.
Yes, but the shutter could be quite fast with 5micron pixels, I don't think the IQ would suffer too much, at normal FLs at least.
Yes, my ideal DSLR system would have sensor IS, but then OIS on long
lenses for AF stabilisation. But with EVIL we get a stabilised
viewfinder and
AF also with sensor IS.
Exactly, unlike another urban legend claiming the opposite.
Yes, particularly regarding pattern noise, aka "banding", I think.

Most people blame the sensor for noise and limited DR, but DR (and
shadow
noise) is mostly limited by the electronics downstream the sensor, at
base ISO
at least.
Seems logical, OTOH Pentax and Sony don't seem to have problems in this regard. I don't think this consideration should decide the LSIS and SSIS discussion. At least not before the development team hits a wall.
Hop Pany does better this time...
With what they wrote about the LX3's improved electronics, I'm
cautiously
optimistic.
Yup, so am I, and I'll probably get an LX3 when the price drops sufficiently, unless the G10 reviews better. Or it's gonna be the FZ28, I haven't decided yet.

--

 
As long as you are willing to do without the AF and IS the Olympus macros would be okay. Whilst I'm mainly using a Canon system now I've still got my 4/3 system. I am particularly interested in m4/3 for a walkabout camera when I don't want to cart a whole DSLR system around with me. I mainly shoot macros and other natural history stuff. The Olympus ZD 35mm is a lovely little lens and pretty cheap as well - not much more than an extension tube. Its not a huge problem to me because I rarely use AF with macros - but it does limit it as a general purpose lens. Its a pity there wasn't better AF compatibility with more 4/3 lenses.
 
If Panasonic is aiming the G1 - as their biggest market- the P&S market upgrading to a DSLR, having a camera that costs near twice the price of an e-420 system or Nikon D40x is very hard to justify in this economy.

And those two cameras are also easy to use.

--
Raist3d (Photographer & Tools/Systems/Gui Games Developer)
Andreas Feininger (1906-1999) 'Photographers — idiots, of which there are
so many — say, “Oh, if only I had a Nikon or a Leica, I could make great
photographs.” That’s the dumbest thing I ever heard in my life. It’s
nothing but a matter of seeing, and thinking, and interest. That’s what
makes a good photograph.'
 
In general, I would hesitate to buy a G1 for birding... With today's
EVF technology, the m43 system excels in most respect, but the
extreme long end for max DR and incredibly fast moving subjects not
being one of them. It would still be a lot better than any FZ, but at
the foreseeable pricepoint it better be right up there with the DSLR
counterparts.
One advantage of 4/3rds is the higher pixel density (if they keep the
Mp count up to match the 15Mp of the Canon 50D), which gives more
tele reach. So I think they should try to capitalise on this inherent
advantage.

For my personal need, "incredibly fast moving subjects" isn't mandatory.

If they make something that's smaller and lighter, but with same or better
reach than a Rebel + 400/5.6L, I will take notice. If it needs a stop more
light to work, that's a fair compromise for me.
it would be possible to use the
4/3 adapter and the 25mm 4/3 tube and a 4/3rds lens. ... it's
probably preferable to my suggestion (expect you need to buy three
extra accessories ...).
It depends on the price of course...
The EX25 is like €150-160. Pretty much for, as you say, two mounts and some
wire. Getting a good 4/3rds lens is not cheap either. Hopefully the
4/3rds adapter will sell for less than the OM adapter at €80.

If it were me, I'd probably try with an achromat first (since I already have a

few f those) and see if I get satisfactory results, before buying all that stuff.
I think it would take less than an afternoon for the Pany R&D
department to design a macro tube. Basically it's two mounts and some
wire.
Sure, but that does not equate to it being made soon. :-)

Just my two oere
Erik from Sweden
 
If Panasonic is aiming the G1 - as their biggest market- the P&S
market upgrading to a DSLR, having a camera that costs near twice the
price of an e-420 system or Nikon D40x is very hard to justify in
this economy.

And those two cameras are also easy to use.
Still looking for the swivel LCD and FF sized VF on those, and the E420 doesn't have any kind of IS... In this respect, the G1 compares to the E3, maybe the Tweener if the VF greatly improved.

There will be more m43 bodies, smaller, lighter etc. The G1 is the full extras version, it's only one body of a coming system, LUCKILY it cannot please all.
 
One advantage of 4/3rds is the higher pixel density (if they keep the
Mp count up to match the 15Mp of the Canon 50D), which gives more
tele reach. So I think they should try to capitalise on this inherent
advantage.
Yup, but people have focused on the 'noise' and now the 'DR-deficit' of the Pany sensors. I think they are trying to right these wrongs before they commence the MP war, which I do not mind if the IQ is anywhere as good as the G1 samples. What I didn't understand about these were the f-stop used, like f13. Could that be an exif-bug, or was it indeed a medium format Hasselblad they used ;)
For my personal need, "incredibly fast moving subjects" isn't mandatory.
BIF, in general. I wanted to shoot a pelican with my (ex)FZ8 and it proved to be more than a challenge without the RDS.
If they make something that's smaller and lighter, but with same or
better
reach than a Rebel + 400/5.6L, I will take notice. If it needs a stop
more
light to work, that's a fair compromise for me.
Fair enough, but that goes given the price segment?
The EX25 is like €150-160. Pretty much for, as you say, two mounts
and some
wire. Getting a good 4/3rds lens is not cheap either. Hopefully the
4/3rds adapter will sell for less than the OM adapter at €80.
Ouch! But sooner or later the 3rd parties will "do something terrible"... :) Eg. I fixed one of the Canon cripples of the Drebel with a Russian made chipped mount ring. Now I have AF confirm on legacy lenses. I think an adapter tube with some wire is just a question of time...
If it were me, I'd probably try with an achromat first (since I
already have a
few f those) and see if I get satisfactory results, before buying all
that stuff.
Of course, since you already have that stuff. I suppose the lenses have IF, would be easy to try my Canon 250d (58mm) which is an overkill for the FZs, but could become handy for a DSLR.
Sure, but that does not equate to it being made soon. :-)
I have faith in the Russians and the Chinese, or even Pemaraal. ;)

--

 
Yes, particularly regarding pattern noise, aka "banding", I think.

Most people blame the sensor for noise and limited DR, but DR (and
shadow
noise) is mostly limited by the electronics downstream the sensor, at
base ISO
at least.
Seems logical, OTOH Pentax and Sony don't seem to have problems in
this regard.
Not sure what you refer to, hopefully not DPR's "DR tests." :-)

Except for the industry-leading K10D with its amplifyer-free readout,
I don't think Pentax and Sony are known for low read noise performance
either. Data is scarce, but I'd say they are closer to 4/3rds performance,
particularly normalised to sensor area, than they are to the best APS-C
cameras, 40D and D300, in this regard.
I don't think this consideration should decide the LSIS
and SSIS discussion. At least not before the development team hits a
wall.
Now I'm not following you at all. I was talking about DR and read noise.
Yes I agree it has very little to do with stabilisation. :-)
Yup, so am I, and I'll probably get an LX3 when the price drops
sufficiently, unless the G10 reviews better. Or it's gonna be the
FZ28, I haven't decided yet.
The G10 is not so interesting to me because of 28mm and its weight.
The FZ28 not so interesting because of size. The LX3 is interesting
but the number of copies with a soft left side is disturbing me.

Just my two oere
Erik from Sweden
 
In general, I would hesitate to buy a G1 for birding... With today's
EVF technology, the m43 system excels in most respect, but the
extreme long end for max DR and incredibly fast moving subjects not
being one of them. It would still be a lot better than any FZ, but at
the foreseeable pricepoint it better be right up there with the DSLR
counterparts.
I am interested in the G1 specifically for birding. No vibration from the shutter is a big plus when mounted on a tripod and shooting low shutter speeds. It may not be such a great option for birds in flight though.
I think it would take less than an afternoon for the Pany R&D
department to design a macro tube. Basically it's two mounts and some
wire.
It might be more than that if you do it "right." The tube changes the effective f-numbers of the lens. But you are correct that it should be trivial for Panasonic to design an extension tube. Further, I see no reason not to use one of the two Olympus macros. A lot of macro work is done using manual focus, not AF. In fact, a lot of the focus fine-tuning is done by moving the camera back and forth a tiny bit.

--
Jay Turberville
http://www.jayandwanda.com
 
Still looking for the swivel LCD and FF sized VF on those, and the
E420 doesn't have any kind of IS... In this respect, the G1 compares
to the E3, maybe the Tweener if the VF greatly improved.
The G1 does not compare well to the E3. It is much more appropriately compared to cameras like the DMC-L10, E420 and E520 - perhaps also the upcoming E-A1

And the E-420 does IS if you simply purchase a Panasonic IS lens for it.

BTW, I understand the the G1 will be sold body only in the U.S. Depending on how they price it, that could be very good news for me. I'd have bought a DMC-L10 if they would have sold it body only.

--
Jay Turberville
http://www.jayandwanda.com
 

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