Does “Color Science” even matter?

[TechTalk2]

Color science is a foundation encompassing everything required in understanding the: creation, control, reproduction, metrology (measurement), characteristics, properties, and perception of color and color stimuli. It's the growing body of knowledge which informs research and advances development of color technologies, systems, and applications in a variety of diverse fields. If you work in a field involving color— color science matters a great deal.

Color science is an interdisciplinary science which is not narrowly confined as a branch of one science, but is interwoven with many fields of science. Color science incorporates: physics, chemistry, physiology, and psychology and intersects with specialized scientific fields ranging from spectroscopy to neuroscience and numerous others. Fields of endeavor utilizing color science are very broad in art, industry, and scientific research.

Knowledge and application of color science is fundamental to the design and function of components and systems in your color digital camera, display, printer and other color imaging systems. It is at the core of devices and applications used to measure, manage, and control color production, reproduction, and recording.

 

[yogi4fitness]

I understand that. All I was questioning was where does color science fall in the scheme of things when choosing a system? Whats the order of priority when someone chooses a camera system?

1) Brand appeal

2) Ergonomics and UI: handling and usability

3) Work flow: from the RAW file from camera to printing/displaying final image

4) Color science: accuracy/pleasing colors

5) Feature set

6) Lens selection

7) Fidelity of reproduction: MTF, uniformity, flare, ghosting, CA etc

8) Reliability:

Etc…

Seems like this calls for another poll

 

[JimKasson]

Color science is a foundation encompassing everything required in understanding the: creation, control, reproduction, metrology (measurement), characteristics, properties, and perception of color and color stimuli. It's the growing body of knowledge which informs research and advances development of color technologies, systems, and applications in a variety of diverse fields. If you work in a field involving color— color science matters a great deal.

Color science is an interdisciplinary science which is not narrowly confined as a branch of one science, but is interwoven with many fields of science. Color science incorporates: physics, chemistry, physiology, and psychology and intersects with specialized scientific fields ranging from spectroscopy to neuroscience and numerous others. Fields of endeavor utilizing color science are very broad in art, industry, and scientific research.

Knowledge and application of color science is fundamental to the design and function of components and systems in your color digital camera, display, printer and other color imaging systems. It is at the core of devices and applications used to measure, manage, and control color production, reproduction, and recording.

As indicated earlier in this thread, as someone who was called a color scientist and drew a paycheck from IBM based on that, I find descriptions like the above overly broad.

Unfortunately, I think called color science a growing body of knowledge, while not actually technically wrong, gives a false impression of the field as it relates to photography. The pace of color engineering, which would fall under the description above, has slowed considerably in the last 20 years, and techniques invented in the 90s have yet to find their way into products that photographers can use.

Gamut mapping is a case in point.

We can’t even count on having properly color managed imaging pipelines, which in the early 1990s I thought would be universal long before now.

 

[JimKasson]

I understand that.

I understand the words, but I don’t buy it.

All I was questioning was where does color science fall in the scheme of things when choosing a system? Whats the order of priority when someone chooses a camera system?

1) Brand appeal

2) Ergonomics and UI: handling and usability

3) Work flow: from the RAW file from camera to printing/displaying final image

4) Color science: accuracy/pleasing colors

5) Feature set

6) Lens selection

7) Fidelity of reproduction: MTF, uniformity, flare, ghosting, CA etc

8) Reliability:

Etc…

Seems like this calls for another poll

 

[Sixby45]

From my own humble experience, I would say that color science by brand matters a great deal - look at the difference in basic output from say Nikon and Canon - even MF digital backs have signature colors if it is say a dalsa or kodak sensor. Now the key is, it's what looks good to your eyes, or gets you closest to being able to alter the files to the way you prefer.

I agree with Jim K. the term is misleading, its more like a different crayon being used, you can always get to another "color" but if you start nearer to where you like the less work to get there

Ill also say this, color science will only go as far as your own eyes / screen, the moment anyone out in the world looks at your photos (which I hope they do) all bets are off and its going to be any old altered colors that come out

-- hide signature --

-Rich

 

[yogi4fitness]

I understand that.

I understand the words, but I don’t buy it.

Holy cow!!! Jim, I didn’t know you could read minds.

All I was questioning was where does color science fall in the scheme of things when choosing a system? Whats the order of priority when someone chooses a camera system?

1) Brand appeal

2) Ergonomics and UI: handling and usability

3) Work flow: from the RAW file from camera to printing/displaying final image

4) Color science: accuracy/pleasing colors

5) Feature set

6) Lens selection

7) Fidelity of reproduction: MTF, uniformity, flare, ghosting, CA etc

8) Reliability:

Etc…

Seems like this calls for another poll

--
https://blog.kasson.com

 

[JimKasson]

From my own humble experience, I would say that color science by brand matters a great deal - look at the difference in basic output from say Nikon and Canon

Define “basic output “, please.

- even MF digital backs have signature colors if it is say a dalsa or kodak sensor. Now the key is, it's what looks good to your eyes, or gets you closest to being able to alter the files to the way you prefer.

I agree with Jim K. the term is misleading, its more like a different crayon being used, you can always get to another "color" but if you start nearer to where you like the less work to get there

Ill also say this, color science will only go as far as your own eyes / screen, the moment anyone out in the world looks at your photos (which I hope they do) all bets are off and its going to be any old altered colors that come out

For the same viewing conditions, the point colors in your photos will look the same to about 92% of men and 99% of women.

 

[TechTalk2]

Color science is a foundation encompassing everything required in understanding the: creation, control, reproduction, metrology (measurement), characteristics, properties, and perception of color and color stimuli. It's the growing body of knowledge which informs research and advances development of color technologies, systems, and applications in a variety of diverse fields. If you work in a field involving color— color science matters a great deal.

Color science is an interdisciplinary science which is not narrowly confined as a branch of one science, but is interwoven with many fields of science. Color science incorporates: physics, chemistry, physiology, and psychology and intersects with specialized scientific fields ranging from spectroscopy to neuroscience and numerous others. Fields of endeavor utilizing color science are very broad in art, industry, and scientific research.

Knowledge and application of color science is fundamental to the design and function of components and systems in your color digital camera, display, printer and other color imaging systems. It is at the core of devices and applications used to measure, manage, and control color production, reproduction, and recording.

As indicated earlier in this thread, as someone who was called a color scientist and drew a paycheck from IBM based on that, I find descriptions like the above overly broad.

I'm not surprised you find the description overly broad given you earlier in the thread said: "If we're going to get technical, I consider color science a branch of psychology" which I personally find neither technical or correct. Color science is much broader in its scope, affect, and meaning.

There are university degree programs offered in Color Science such as those at Rochester Institute of Technology (RIT) in the United States. RIT's overview of their doctoral degree program begins with this description of color science:

Color has been an intense topic of interest for thousands of years. Mathematicians, philosophers, physicists, physiologists, poets, and other disciplines have all contributed to our understanding of color. RIT’s color science Ph.D. program allows you to contribute to knowledge creation and practical application of color science. You will conduct extensive research that encompasses diverse fields and multiple disciplines of science.

As a generalization, color science can be defined as the quantification of our perception of color. Its mastery requires a multidisciplinary educational approach encompassing physics, chemistry, physiology, statistics, computer science, neuroscience, and psychology. Color science is used in the design and control of most man-made colored materials including textiles, coatings, and polymers and to specify such diverse materials as soil and wine. It is used extensively in color reproduction including digital photography, desktop and projection display, and printing. Color science is ubiquitous.

 

[TechTalk2]

The Society for Imaging Science and Technology (IS&T), an organization formerly known as the Society of Photographic Scientists and Engineers (SPSE), has a list of suggested books to further understanding of color science and related topics which may be useful to anyone interested in the subject.

https://www.imaging.org/site/Topics/Color_Science

 

[JimKasson]

Color science is a foundation encompassing everything required in understanding the: creation, control, reproduction, metrology (measurement), characteristics, properties, and perception of color and color stimuli. It's the growing body of knowledge which informs research and advances development of color technologies, systems, and applications in a variety of diverse fields. If you work in a field involving color— color science matters a great deal.

Color science is an interdisciplinary science which is not narrowly confined as a branch of one science, but is interwoven with many fields of science. Color science incorporates: physics, chemistry, physiology, and psychology and intersects with specialized scientific fields ranging from spectroscopy to neuroscience and numerous others. Fields of endeavor utilizing color science are very broad in art, industry, and scientific research.

Knowledge and application of color science is fundamental to the design and function of components and systems in your color digital camera, display, printer and other color imaging systems. It is at the core of devices and applications used to measure, manage, and control color production, reproduction, and recording.

As indicated earlier in this thread, as someone who was called a color scientist and drew a paycheck from IBM based on that, I find descriptions like the above overly broad.

I'm not surprised you find the description overly broad given you earlier in the thread said: "If we're going to get technical, I consider color science a branch of psychology" which I personally find neither technical or correct. Color science is much broader in its scope, affect, and meaning.

There are university degree programs offered in Color Science such as those at Rochester Institute of Technology (RIT) in the United States. RIT's overview of their doctoral degree program begins with this description of color science:

Color has been an intense topic of interest for thousands of years. Mathematicians, philosophers, physicists, physiologists, poets, and other disciplines have all contributed to our understanding of color. RIT’s color science Ph.D. program allows you to contribute to knowledge creation and practical application of color science. You will conduct extensive research that encompasses diverse fields and multiple disciplines of science.

As a generalization, color science can be defined as the quantification of our perception of color. Its mastery requires a multidisciplinary educational approach encompassing physics, chemistry, physiology, statistics, computer science, neuroscience, and psychology. Color science is used in the design and control of most man-made colored materials including textiles, coatings, and polymers and to specify such diverse materials as soil and wine. It is used extensively in color reproduction including digital photography, desktop and projection display, and printing. Color science is ubiquitous.

I think that debating this with you would be st least as fruitless as many of our previous discussions. I know why they wrote their pitch the way they wrote it.

There is a similar dichotomy between computer science and computer engineering.

 

[yogi4fitness]

Color science is a foundation encompassing everything required in understanding the: creation, control, reproduction, metrology (measurement), characteristics, properties, and perception of color and color stimuli. It's the growing body of knowledge which informs research and advances development of color technologies, systems, and applications in a variety of diverse fields. If you work in a field involving color— color science matters a great deal.

Color science is an interdisciplinary science which is not narrowly confined as a branch of one science, but is interwoven with many fields of science. Color science incorporates: physics, chemistry, physiology, and psychology and intersects with specialized scientific fields ranging from spectroscopy to neuroscience and numerous others. Fields of endeavor utilizing color science are very broad in art, industry, and scientific research.

Knowledge and application of color science is fundamental to the design and function of components and systems in your color digital camera, display, printer and other color imaging systems. It is at the core of devices and applications used to measure, manage, and control color production, reproduction, and recording.

As indicated earlier in this thread, as someone who was called a color scientist and drew a paycheck from IBM based on that, I find descriptions like the above overly broad.

I'm not surprised you find the description overly broad given you earlier in the thread said: "If we're going to get technical, I consider color science a branch of psychology" which I personally find neither technical or correct. Color science is much broader in its scope, affect, and meaning.

There are university degree programs offered in Color Science such as those at Rochester Institute of Technology (RIT) in the United States.

I’m curious how many universities offer degree programs in color science vs universities offering degrees in signal processing (EE), optical engineering, Ui etc. I’m guessing 10% or maybe even 1%. I dont know the exact number but I’m thinking that itself should tell us how important color science is in the practical scheme of things.

RIT's overview of their doctoral degree program begins with this description of color science:

Color has been an intense topic of interest for thousands of years. Mathematicians, philosophers, physicists, physiologists, poets, and other disciplines have all contributed to our understanding of color. RIT’s color science Ph.D. program allows you to contribute to knowledge creation and practical application of color science. You will conduct extensive research that encompasses diverse fields and multiple disciplines of science.

As a generalization, color science can be defined as the quantification of our perception of color. Its mastery requires a multidisciplinary educational approach encompassing physics, chemistry, physiology, statistics, computer science, neuroscience, and psychology. Color science is used in the design and control of most man-made colored materials including textiles, coatings, and polymers and to specify such diverse materials as soil and wine. It is used extensively in color reproduction including digital photography, desktop and projection display, and printing. Color science is ubiquitous.

 

[JimKasson]

Color science is a foundation encompassing everything required in understanding the: creation, control, reproduction, metrology (measurement), characteristics, properties, and perception of color and color stimuli. It's the growing body of knowledge which informs research and advances development of color technologies, systems, and applications in a variety of diverse fields. If you work in a field involving color— color science matters a great deal.

Color science is an interdisciplinary science which is not narrowly confined as a branch of one science, but is interwoven with many fields of science. Color science incorporates: physics, chemistry, physiology, and psychology

Dont forget linear algebra.

and intersects with specialized scientific fields ranging from spectroscopy to neuroscience and numerous others. Fields of endeavor utilizing color science are very broad in art, industry, and scientific research.

Knowledge and application of color science is fundamental to the design and function of components and systems in your color digital camera, display, printer and other color imaging systems. It is at the core of devices and applications used to measure, manage, and control color production, reproduction, and recording.

 

[TechTalk2]

Color science is a foundation encompassing everything required in understanding the: creation, control, reproduction, metrology (measurement), characteristics, properties, and perception of color and color stimuli. It's the growing body of knowledge which informs research and advances development of color technologies, systems, and applications in a variety of diverse fields. If you work in a field involving color— color science matters a great deal.

Color science is an interdisciplinary science which is not narrowly confined as a branch of one science, but is interwoven with many fields of science. Color science incorporates: physics, chemistry, physiology, and psychology and intersects with specialized scientific fields ranging from spectroscopy to neuroscience and numerous others. Fields of endeavor utilizing color science are very broad in art, industry, and scientific research.

Knowledge and application of color science is fundamental to the design and function of components and systems in your color digital camera, display, printer and other color imaging systems. It is at the core of devices and applications used to measure, manage, and control color production, reproduction, and recording.

As indicated earlier in this thread, as someone who was called a color scientist and drew a paycheck from IBM based on that, I find descriptions like the above overly broad.

I'm not surprised you find the description overly broad given you earlier in the thread said: "If we're going to get technical, I consider color science a branch of psychology" which I personally find neither technical or correct. Color science is much broader in its scope, affect, and meaning.

There are university degree programs offered in Color Science such as those at Rochester Institute of Technology (RIT) in the United States. RIT's overview of their doctoral degree program begins with this description of color science:

Color has been an intense topic of interest for thousands of years. Mathematicians, philosophers, physicists, physiologists, poets, and other disciplines have all contributed to our understanding of color. RIT’s color science Ph.D. program allows you to contribute to knowledge creation and practical application of color science. You will conduct extensive research that encompasses diverse fields and multiple disciplines of science.

As a generalization, color science can be defined as the quantification of our perception of color. Its mastery requires a multidisciplinary educational approach encompassing physics, chemistry, physiology, statistics, computer science, neuroscience, and psychology. Color science is used in the design and control of most man-made colored materials including textiles, coatings, and polymers and to specify such diverse materials as soil and wine. It is used extensively in color reproduction including digital photography, desktop and projection display, and printing. Color science is ubiquitous.

I think that debating this with you would be st least as fruitless as many of our previous discussions...

I'm not looking for debate. I'm looking for an expansion of viewpoints and sources of information.

 

[JimKasson]

Color science is a foundation encompassing everything required in understanding the: creation, control, reproduction, metrology (measurement), characteristics, properties, and perception of color and color stimuli. It's the growing body of knowledge which informs research and advances development of color technologies, systems, and applications in a variety of diverse fields. If you work in a field involving color— color science matters a great deal.

Color science is an interdisciplinary science which is not narrowly confined as a branch of one science, but is interwoven with many fields of science. Color science incorporates: physics, chemistry, physiology, and psychology and intersects with specialized scientific fields ranging from spectroscopy to neuroscience and numerous others. Fields of endeavor utilizing color science are very broad in art, industry, and scientific research.

Knowledge and application of color science is fundamental to the design and function of components and systems in your color digital camera, display, printer and other color imaging systems. It is at the core of devices and applications used to measure, manage, and control color production, reproduction, and recording.

As indicated earlier in this thread, as someone who was called a color scientist and drew a paycheck from IBM based on that, I find descriptions like the above overly broad.

I'm not surprised you find the description overly broad given you earlier in the thread said: "If we're going to get technical, I consider color science a branch of psychology" which I personally find neither technical or correct. Color science is much broader in its scope, affect, and meaning.

There are university degree programs offered in Color Science such as those at Rochester Institute of Technology (RIT) in the United States. RIT's overview of their doctoral degree program begins with this description of color science:

Color has been an intense topic of interest for thousands of years. Mathematicians, philosophers, physicists, physiologists, poets, and other disciplines have all contributed to our understanding of color. RIT’s color science Ph.D. program allows you to contribute to knowledge creation and practical application of color science. You will conduct extensive research that encompasses diverse fields and multiple disciplines of science.

As a generalization, color science can be defined as the quantification of our perception of color. Its mastery requires a multidisciplinary educational approach encompassing physics, chemistry, physiology, statistics, computer science, neuroscience, and psychology. Color science is used in the design and control of most man-made colored materials including textiles, coatings, and polymers and to specify such diverse materials as soil and wine. It is used extensively in color reproduction including digital photography, desktop and projection display, and printing. Color science is ubiquitous.

I think that debating this with you would be st least as fruitless as many of our previous discussions...

I'm not looking for debate. I'm looking for an expansion of viewpoints and sources of information.

Hai.

 

[Erik Kaffehr]

Color science is a foundation encompassing everything required in understanding the: creation, control, reproduction, metrology (measurement), characteristics, properties, and perception of color and color stimuli. It's the growing body of knowledge which informs research and advances development of color technologies, systems, and applications in a variety of diverse fields. If you work in a field involving color— color science matters a great deal.

Color science is an interdisciplinary science which is not narrowly confined as a branch of one science, but is interwoven with many fields of science. Color science incorporates: physics, chemistry, physiology, and psychology and intersects with specialized scientific fields ranging from spectroscopy to neuroscience and numerous others. Fields of endeavor utilizing color science are very broad in art, industry, and scientific research.

Knowledge and application of color science is fundamental to the design and function of components and systems in your color digital camera, display, printer and other color imaging systems. It is at the core of devices and applications used to measure, manage, and control color production, reproduction, and recording.

As indicated earlier in this thread, as someone who was called a color scientist and drew a paycheck from IBM based on that, I find descriptions like the above overly broad.

I'm not surprised you find the description overly broad given you earlier in the thread said: "If we're going to get technical, I consider color science a branch of psychology" which I personally find neither technical or correct. Color science is much broader in its scope, affect, and meaning.

There are university degree programs offered in Color Science such as those at Rochester Institute of Technology (RIT) in the United States. RIT's overview of their doctoral degree program begins with this description of color science:

Color has been an intense topic of interest for thousands of years. Mathematicians, philosophers, physicists, physiologists, poets, and other disciplines have all contributed to our understanding of color. RIT’s color science Ph.D. program allows you to contribute to knowledge creation and practical application of color science. You will conduct extensive research that encompasses diverse fields and multiple disciplines of science.

As a generalization, color science can be defined as the quantification of our perception of color.

Perception is a function of the brain: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perception

Its mastery requires a multidisciplinary educational approach encompassing physics, chemistry, physiology, statistics, computer science, neuroscience, and psychology.

Neither of which has much to do with CFA designs in cameras.

Color science is used in the design and control of most man-made colored materials including textiles, coatings, and polymers and to specify such diverse materials as soil and wine.

Again, in camera silicon is not a colored material. The CFA may be regarded as such.

It is used extensively in color reproduction including digital photography, desktop and projection display, and printing. Color science is ubiquitous.

Yes but reproduction of color has much about pigments, light and perception of color.

A camera merely records light in three channels, interpretation of that information into color is done after raw conversion, normally based on color profiles.

But, I have seen some discussion, by Tim Parkin mainly, claiming that the CCD backs used by Phase One and Hasselblad could not correctly render differences in natural greens.

Having a Phase One P45+ back, I may share that conclusion. But what is the color of grass? Perceived color may be different from observable colors. Things may look different under a canopy of greens from same subjects in another surrounding.

I would think that 'hot mirror' design may also play a role. Camera sensors are sensitive to IR, strong filtering near IR may affect reproduction of reds but having weak IR filtering may cause unnatural colors. Some early Leica M models had serious issues with rendering black textiles that have high IR content.

Shooting JPEG, the camera renders the JPG image. That rendition may include a lot of applied color science.

Color profiles in raw processing may involve applied color science, too, but probably less than in camera JPEG.

In camera JPEGs:

• Apply white balance
• Apply tone curves
• Probably apply selective color shifts
• All that may be based on content

Best regards

Erik

--
Erik Kaffehr
Website: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net
Magic uses to disappear in controlled experiments…
Gallery: http://echophoto.smugmug.com
Articles: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.php/photoarticles

 

[Stan Disbrow]

Hi,

Ah, yes. RIT. Which means Kodak. And we are back to my earlier comment that Kodak had it all under control color-wise long ago.

Kodak utilized RIT in the same way GE and IBM utilized RPI. So I'm a RPI guy having been an IBM guy. At Ericsson, we had NC State for our engineering school partner here in NC. Associated with our R+D shop here. Sweden had their own, of course. Both schools and R+D shops.

And the schools tailor themselves to fit the needs of their corporate partners. So this is where Science becomes Engineering. It works out quite well.

Stan

 

[yogi4fitness]

Hi,

Ah, yes. RIT. Which means Kodak. And we are back to my earlier comment that Kodak had it all under control color-wise long ago.

Kodak utilized RIT in the same way GE and IBM utilized RPI. So I'm a RPI guy having been an IBM guy. At Ericsson, we had NC State for our engineering school partner here in NC. Associated with our R+D shop here. Sweden had their own, of course. Both schools and R+D shops.

And the schools tailor themselves to fit the needs of their corporate partners. So this is where Science becomes Engineering. It works out quite well.

This makes a lot of sense.

Stan

--
Amateur Photographer
Professional Electronics Development Engineer
Once you start down the DSLR path, forever will it dominate your destiny! Consume
your bank account, it will! Like mine, it did!

 

[JimKasson]

Hi,

Ah, yes. RIT. Which means Kodak. And we are back to my earlier comment that Kodak had it all under control color-wise long ago.

Kodak utilized RIT in the same way GE and IBM utilized RPI. So I'm a RPI guy having been an IBM guy.

And HP utilized Stanford. Fred Terman was the force behind the founding of HP, and their headquarters was on Stanford land. If you came to HP with a BSEE, you got your masters at Stanford on the company’s dime.

At Ericsson, we had NC State for our engineering school partner here in NC. Associated with our R+D shop here. Sweden had their own, of course. Both schools and R+D shops.

And the schools tailor themselves to fit the needs of their corporate partners. So this is where Science becomes Engineering. It works out quite well.

Stan

 

[just Tony]

I would think that 'hot mirror' design may also play a role.

Their brick wall passbands are readily adjusted via the vacuum deposition processes to any desired wavelength but I don't know if brick wall behavior is always what is needed there.

Camera sensors are sensitive to IR, strong filtering near IR may affect reproduction of reds but having weak IR filtering may cause unnatural colors. Some early Leica M models had serious issues with rendering black textiles that have high IR content.

I recall the odd photos of the "burners" on an electric stove top that were captured by my Sony RX100 mark 1. I would describe the visual experience as a "deeply saturated red", but the camera recorded them as a saturated purple.

 

[just Tony]

This came up in a thread over in the Nikon Z forum:

https://www.cobalt-image.com/

If those work well that would seem to address most of the content in this thread.